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1  Vintage Community Discussion / Non-Vintage / Re: Where Does Everyone Play? on: August 16, 2008, 03:00:14 pm
In New Mexico (NM):

Gameco in Santa Fe has smallish casual events on Saturday
Active Imagination in Albuquerque has Legacy events about once a month: check their calendar

The Inquisitive in Rio Rancho (just north of ABQ) has largish Legacy events every Friday at 6:30PM.  DCI-sanctioned but casual, we've seen 35 players nightly for two weeks running.

Entry fee: buy anything from the store.
Prizes: 1st gets 3 boosters, 2nd gets 2, 3rd gets 1.  Not much, but neither is the entry fee.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Priority and activated abilities vs triggered abilities on: January 23, 2008, 04:59:37 pm
My opponent casts Elvish Lyrist and passes turn.  I cast Sulfuric Vortex and pass turn.  During his upkeep, the soonest he can use the Lyrist to destroy the Vortex is after the Vortex's ability has already gone on the stack, right?

404.2. Triggered abilities aren’t played. Instead, a triggered ability automatically “triggers” each time its trigger event occurs. Once an ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a player would receive priority.

So the Vortex triggers, when he gets priority it goes on the stack, and regardless of whether he responds to it with Lyrist or lets it resolve, he will take the 2 damage anyway.
3  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Morningtide: Rivals' Duel and Protection on: January 21, 2008, 06:07:35 am
Hi, I hope this doesn't count as a question about cards from spoilers, as it came up in the Prerelease on Saturday.  My opponent plays Rivals' Duel on two of my creatures.  I play an Instant to give one of my creatures Protection from Red.  The head judge ruled that the spell would fizzle, which according to previous posts here is incorrect (one target is still legal, so the spell should resolve).  However, if the spell doesn't fizzle, how does the card's effect resolve?  It doesn't make sense for the remaining target to hit itself.  Does it simply swing at the empty air while not receiving any damage itself?  Or does something else happen?  Thanks!
4  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Order of paying non-mana costs on: December 16, 2007, 01:59:02 pm
Can I reveal an Elvish Spirit Guide (an Elf by errata) to play Wren's Run Vanquisher, then RFG it for mana to pay the mana cost?  Sounds like a yes if I can pay additional costs in any order with respect to the mana costs of a spell.  Thanks!
5  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Damage from an unsummoned lifelink creature on: October 19, 2007, 09:34:05 am
Ah, I see.  In the end, I guess there's no way to block a Craw Wurm with a Wren's Run Vanquisher, then bounce the Vanquisher and expect the Craw Wurm to die from Deathtouch, right?  Only after damage resolves does the Deathtouch get put on the stack, but then the Elf is already dead from the 6 damage.
6  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Damage from an unsummoned lifelink creature on: October 19, 2007, 12:58:21 am
Ok, that seems to make sense, but why does this work?

A Wolf's deathtouch ability will trigger if both Wren's Run Packmaster and that Wolf are in play at the time the Wolf deals damage. The deathtouch ability will then destroy the creature dealt damage by the Wolf even if the Wolf or Wren's Run Packmaster leaves play before the ability resolves.

Quoted from

They seem like similar ideas... a triggered ability is tied to damage.  Obviously the damage has to go on the stack and eventually resolve, but when it does, either all such abilities should take effect if the damage-dealer isn't in play, or they shouldn't.  Otherwise, this game just got a lot more confusing.  Confused
7  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Damage from an unsummoned lifelink creature on: September 28, 2007, 11:36:04 am
It's not clear from the comprehensive rules what happens when you place damage from a Lifelink creature on the stack then bounce the creature.  Does the former controller of the Lifelink creature still gain life when the damage resolves?  Thanks!
8  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Hidden Gibbons + Split Second on: September 14, 2007, 03:02:05 am
If my opponent casts Stonewood Invocation (or another Split Second card), do my Gibbons trigger?  Split Second says "players can't play ____" and I'm not really playing it: it's just a triggered ability.  Please confirm that I get my monkey.  Thanks!
9  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Illusionary mask and Meddlin' mage on: September 11, 2007, 12:57:55 am
On a related note, a Mage played as an instant (Aether Vial/Aluren/etc.) cannot affect a spell on the stack, right?  For example, if someone plays Wrath of God, and I Vial in a Mage naming Wrath in response, the Mage will simply die with everything else when Wrath resolves, right? 
10  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Are prerelease foils legal? on: September 11, 2007, 12:49:33 am
Quote from: Magic Floor Rules
A series of official promotional cards called textless spells are allowed in DCI-sanctioned Magic tournaments. However, the card(s) must otherwise be legal to play in that tournament's format. These cards should be interpreted using their current Oracle(tm) wordings.

To be more completely correct, shouldn't this say "All cards used in DCI-sanctioned Magic tournaments should be interpreted using their current Oracle(tm) wordings"?

EDIT: Ok, RTFM, seriously.  That's section 103. =)
11  Vintage Community Discussion / Casual Forum / Casual Legacy: CARGA (red-green aggro) on: September 04, 2007, 01:01:34 am
Cheap-Ass Red-Green Aggro
(a.k.a. Minizilla Stompy 2k7.  RG Beats for the Peasant Meta)

The goal is to build a
(1) casual
(2) red-green deck with
(3) an aggro bias, using
(4) all commons costing
(5) no more than $2 each, but
(6) generally as cheap and easy-to-acquire as possible

I chose red-green for my first two-color peasant deck because of its versatility of direct damage, efficient creatures, combat tricks, and mana smoothing capabilities.  It was also my first somewhat viable deck back in the Revised/3rd days, so I'm eager to revisit the archetype.  This time I'll put the list first, then talk about individual cards:

Proposed Decklist

// Lands (18)
    10  Forest
    8  Mountain

// Creatures (24)
    4  Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
    4  Rogue Elephant
    4  Kird Ape
    4  Mogg Flunkies
    4  Scab-Clan Mauler
    4  Horned Kavu

// Spells (18)
    4  Giant Growth
    4  Rancor
    4  Incinerate
    4  Lightning Bolt
    2  Fireblast

// Sideboard (Just ideas... entirely unoptimized)
4  River Boa (Lends resilience and evasion in some situations, but 2 power for 2 is a bit weak in this deck!)
3  Naturalize (Well-rounded green Disenchant)
4  Stone Rain (Land destruction option, for opposing janky multicolor decks that get easily manascrewed)
4  Demolish (As above. Consider 1RR LD cards instead of this 3R spell)

1-drop Critters

Ghazban Ogress/Wild Dogs Wild Dogs are good because they can be cycled.  Hopefully we're fast enough to avoid the obvious drawback.
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk With our Trample, evasion, and direct damage, this is often a 2/2 for G.  Add some evasion of its own and it's a solid creature.
Mogg Fanatic A bit too small compared to our other options, even though he has great utility.  We want to dominate the combat phase with this deck, and Mogg ends up being 1+1+1+...+2 instead of 2+2+2+...+2
Rogue Elephant A Rancored Elephant swinging on the second turn can make for fast games, but removal is a 2-for-1 play that slows down our mana development.
Granger Guildmage While not very useful in combat, it provides great utility with its damage ability.  If we can support a small splash of white mana, the first strike ability can combine with Rancor, and Blood Lust, and other tricks, or nullify against opposing first strikers.
Kird Ape Much less useful in a deck without expensive lands, but could still be viable.
Jungle Lion Generally selling for $3, this is too expensive for our peasant build but they should be used if available.
Jackal Pup A decent card, but uncommon so we'll avoid it here.

2-drop Critters

Grizzly Bear Here's a card so old and well-known that nowadays "2/2 for 2" critters are often called bears, even if they aren't bears.  However, we expect more for two mana now that newer options have been printed. 
Mogg Flunkies 3/3 for 2 in a deck with plenty of creatures to nullify its drawback is a good deal.
Scab-Clan Mauler A bigger Pit-Skulk, with the ever-useful Trample.
Horned Kavu Huge for its cost, but slows us down.  Remember to cast it after you attack! (See rant below.)
Wild Mongrel turns late-game lands into pump, and can trigger Madness. At worst, it is a bear.
Elvish Warrior A +0/+1 bear for reduced casting flexibility is not worth it.  If only it were a 3/2.
Keldon Marauders If it were Fading 2 instead of Vanishing 2, it might be worth it.  2-5 damage for 2 mana isn't so appealing.

Bigger Critters

Keep in mind that ultimately we want power>=casting cost, so there are few viable options.

Elvish Ranger 1 toughness is too fragile for an investment of 3 mana.
Phyrexian War Beast Efficient boltproof critter at the upper end of our mana curve, but not as explosive without Dark Ritual.  Spreading the cost out over two turns a'la Kavu would allow it to be cast without dedicated accelerants (Kavu+anything vs. War Beast+Elf).
Should something else be in this slot?


Our guys are a bit bigger than in CAMBA, but Green's the king of pump, so why not make them bigger?

Rancor With a bit of resistance against 2-for-1 plays and extreme overall efficiency, this becomes an autoinclude. 
Dust Corona The bad evasion ability is less useful than Rancor's Trample, and it all but guarantees a 2-for-1 play for the opponent.
Giant Growth An old-school staple that sees play even today, this can take the roles of protection, creature kill, and "direct damage" on a trampling or unblocked attacker.
Seething Anger Too slow to respond to anything or result in surprise damage, and doesn't save our creatures from damage.
Blood Lust Works well with Trample, First Strike, and Regeneration.  Can take down huge threats in combat or when coupled with direct damage.
Symbiosis While the two-casting cost may be prohibitive, it can save two critters from a sweeper and is resistant to 2-for-1 plays since both targets must be destroyed for it to fizzle.  Of course, it's useless with one critter on the board.
Seal of Strength/Briar Shield These lose the element of surprise, and we should be able to keep mana open more easily than 9-land stompy so the pre-cast advantage is less significant.  Note a Shielded 1/1 with 1 damage will die if Shield is sacced to pump it.
Bounty of the Hunt/Might of Old Krosa These are uncommon
Armor of Thorns/Giant Strength These are too inefficient nowadays.

Direct Damage

Lightning Bolt An expensive common but within our budget.
Incinerate This bolt can take care of regenerating chump blockers that foil our non-Rancored beaters.  More generally, it's a cheap common that casts at instant speed.
Fireblast A great surprise game finisher, but should be used sparingly in a deck with all common lands.
Chain Lightning Technically a common, but too expensive for this deck.
Lava Spike/Rift Bolt/etc. Compared to the above cards, these are slower, more restrictive, and/or more expensive to cast.  They are not bad cards, but we don't have too many slots for direct damage in this deck.
Fling Fun game-ender that works wonders with pump spells.  This (and Berserk) was double strike before double strike.


Naturalize green's disenchant is probably the best overall.
Hull Breach 2-for-1 plays are great, but the mana is slightly more restrictive and it's slow.
Tranquility/Essence Filter/Tranquil Domain/etc. Consider these if you're expecting a lot of enchantments
Sundering Vitae With our low mana curve, we can afford to hardcast a 2-mana disenchant effect.
Viridian Zealot would be nice but is a rare.  It is reasonably cheap so you might use it if it's lying around, but our peasant build won't use it.
Elvish Lyrist/Scavenger Folk/etc. Too slow.  There are too many ways to get rid of a 1/1 creature before it loses summoning sickness.

Mana Smoothing (May be unnecessary)

Crop Rotation Useful for fetching nonbasics, which we don't have.  2-for-1 card disadvantage, but at least we can use the land that same turn
Yavimaya Elder at 5 mana, a little too slow for our aggro-oriented deck.
Quirion Elves/Skyshroud Elf 2 mana for a 1/1 is pretty painful, but these may be useful with more splashes.
Prismatic Lens easier to cast than the elves, but can't even attack for 1
Terramorphic Expanse Only good when it's the third or later land played, or else it slows us down too much.
Lotus Petal Stores seem to overvalue this card, but it can be found for around $1 from private sellers.  Note that there's no 2-drop in our list that we'd want to cast first-turn: Flunkies cannot attack alone on turn 2, Maulers hit the board as 1/1s, and Kavus bounce themselves.

On Mana:

Generally, mana acceleration weakens our deck by giving a small mana boost at the expense of adding non-threats.  Whereas Dark Ritual adds two mana, Lotus Petal adds just one, and Elves not only delay the mana that they give us, they also rob us of our second-turn attack (which is important for pumping our 8 Bloodthirsty critters). 

There are some common nonbasics we could consider, such as Terramorphic Expanse and Timberland Ruins, but we depend on having our basic lands for Rogue Elephant, Kird Ape, and Fireblast, and we are dependent on early game mana so things that come into play tapped really hurt.  In the end, adding more basic lands might be preferable over any accelerators.  We'll just depend on individual card efficiency to try to overcome the loss of tricks that other decks get to use (Dual lands, Spirit Guides, etc.). 

General Notes:

I don't play sideboards in casual play, so I haven't thought too much about that.  Some peasant magic formats allow the use of a few uncommons, for which I'd add better creatures or acceleration.  Under the state restrictions, Rancor and Lightning Bolt are relatively expensive but available for $1, and the deck can be made from scratch for around $20.  As with CAMBA, this isn't meant to be a tournament-viable deck, but should do well in a casual or peasant magic environment.  Note that under ideal conditions, the average toughness of our creatures is 3.  Such a resilient creature base is nice in an all-commons deck with such a low curve.  Any suggestions for improvement are more than welcome!


More explosiveness with Blood Lust and Fling?  Or just use the 8 green pumpers?

Kird Ape and Rogue Elephant are at odds with each other.  Should I use something else, or run forty maindeck Forests?  If these are to be replaced, they need to be 1-drops, including some red ones. 

Are there better critters I overlooked?  Note that a lot of the better ones are considerably more expensive and/or are uncommon.

Can I use Bear Cub?  Please?  It's just revoltingly cute.

Please argue against Horned Kavu (unless you like it too).  Assuming we play an ideal land each turn, we have:

Turn 1: 1-drop
Turn 2: Attack for 1-2, cast Kavu, bounce 1-drop
Turn 3: Attack for 3, recast the 1-drop
Result: 4-5 total damage, 2 open mana, 2 good-sized critters on the board

War Beast:
Turn 1: Elf
Turn 2: Cast War Beast
Turn 3: Attack for 3 or 4
Result: 3,4 total damage, 4,3 open mana, 1 good-sized creature and a 1/1 on the board

Obviously the second scenario gives us a better mana development path, but it means we have these little 1/1 for 1 creatures in what's meant to be an aggro deck.  Kavu lets us utilize existing 1-drops as accelerators.  Then two land and any non-Elephant 1-drop will let us cast a turn-2 Kavu, whereas we need 1 of 4 Elves to cast a second turn War Beast.  I say 1 of 4 because we simply can't run 8 mana elves in this deck.  Lastly, War Beast dies to artifact-hate and[/b] creature-hate, and its death effect actually matters in a deck where we're saccing 8 lands to cast our other spells.

Thanks for reading!

The Cheap Ass Series:
CAMBA: Cheap-Ass Mono-Black Aggro
CARGA: Cheap-Ass Red-Green Aggro
12  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Triggered abilities that affect target validity on: September 01, 2007, 09:39:03 am
I guess my question was two-fold... firstly if a spell fizzles when one of several targets becomes illegal or nonexistent, and secondly the order in which the Ghost's ability and the resolution of my Bounty occur.  Indeed a multi-target spell will resolve if at least one target is legal and exists at resolution, according to:

So I guess I should have checked the Knowledge Base first.  Thanks for the reply though!
13  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Triggered abilities that affect target validity on: August 31, 2007, 07:52:51 pm
I have a Grizzly Bears in play and attacking, and Bounty of the Hunt in hand.  My opponent has a Skulking Ghost in play.  We are at the end of the Declare Attackers step.  I wish to play Bounty, targeting my Bear twice and the Ghost once.  My hope is that the Ghost will be buried, but the loss of the target is slow enough that the Bounty still resolves and my Bear swings for 4.  Is that true, or is the disappearance of the Ghost fast enough to make the Bounty fizzle?  Sorry if this is obvious... I tried to muddle through the Comprehensive Rules but couldn't find anything relevant.  Thanks!
14  Vintage Community Discussion / Casual Forum / Re: Casual Legacy: CAMBA on: August 03, 2007, 06:58:56 am
I think that it would be a good idea to include a few spells that scale up well.  If your opponent happens to put a stop to your fast aggression, you'll need a back up plan.  You had mentioned Drain Life (should be Consume Spirit instead.)  If you expect only ever to need your scalable cards late in the game, which is probable, Corrupt and Tendrils of Corruption are also nice.  You could probably afford to take out (1) Funeral Charm, (1) Snuff Out, and (1) Hymn to Tourach if you wanted to add one or more scalable cards.  I would probably go with (2) Tendrils of Corruption and (1) Corrupt.

Hey neat, they made a better drain life. =)  I haven't played for a few years so I only remember the old stuff.  I agree having some late-game staying power would be nice.  It's not that I don't have any... the Orders do pump, albeit inefficiently.  You're right though, as more would be nice.  I'll have to test to see how quickly I get 6 mana for Corrupt.  I like the ability to "go for the dome," so I'd likely either choose Corrupt or fall back on the more flexible though less efficient Consume Spirit.  Thanks!

EDIT: After some testing, it's just too uncommon to get 6 lands in the late game, and any game that goes that far will likely end in a loss, as this deck is more suited to an explosive start and aggressive offense.  There are 2- to 3-mana sorceries that drain for 2, but they can only either target players or creatures, so they are too inflexible.

EDIT: You'd take out a Hymn before a Duress?  I would think Hymn's more effective at disruption in the newbie/casual meta, which probably isn't going to pull a win-on-turn-2 combo.  If someone is playing a $300 Legacy combo deck against my $13 common pile...  =)
15  Vintage Community Discussion / Casual Forum / Casual Legacy: CAMBA (mono-black aggro) on: August 03, 2007, 05:06:36 am
Cheap-Ass Mono-Black Aggro

The goal is to build a
(1) casual
(2) mono-black deck with
(3) an aggro bias, using
(4) all commons costing
(5) no more than $2, but
(6) generally as cheap and easy-to-acquire as possible

If it seems like I'm going a bit overboard for a stupid common pile, understand that this is my start at practicing deck building and optimizing.  The entire Legacy cardpool is a bit overwhelming to a newbie deck builder, so restricting myself to commons should make it more approachable.  I recommend this to other budding designers too. =)

I chose black because it has no less than five forms of evasion in its cheap commons: protection, fear, shadow, flying, and landwalk.  Even better, critters with these abilities are often reasonably efficient (power >= CC).  Evasion should help its critters go for the dome and avoid tangling with other decks' bigger threats, while the efficiency should provide constant pressure and hopefully fast kills.  Black is also efficient at creature removal (at least for non-black critters) and has a powerful discard suite for some early disruption, all at common rarity.  Let's run through some possibilities:

1-drop critters

Carnophage An iconic black suicide weenie, and the best 1-drop available to us since Sarcomancy runs about $5 each.
Vampire Bats If we don't have enough things to do with our first Swamp, this may be added.  It firebreathes for two and could be pumped with equipment.

2-drop critters

Skulking Ghost, Foul Imp, Fledgling Djinn Here we get some flying creatures that actually do some damage without help, though they come with significant downsides.  With the hopes that in a casual environment and a threat-filled deck these might stick around for a while, I'll choose the Foul Imp.  Skulking Ghost would be nice except that we can't equip or enchant it.
Dauthi Slayer, Dauthi Horror I'll likely be attacking anyway, and with all the possible damage sources out there, 2 toughness might make the difference to keep it alive.  Hence, we'll go with the Slayer for now.  See also Funeral Charm.
Wretched Anurid As a 3/3 for 2, he's one of our fatter critters, and pretty efficient to boot.  Just hope no one empties the warrens onto our heads.
Order of the Ebon Hand This iconic Black Weenie can safely kill opposing weenies with first strike, and chew up our unspent mid-game mana. While skipping Dauthi Horror left us with an even weaker White Weenie MU, the Order helps balance the scales a bit.
Nezumi Cutthroat Here's a fear option, though the 1 toughness is unfortunate.
Fallen Askari Has flanking for improved combat performance, but in the end it's just a bear when unblocked.
Erg Raiders Compared to the Askari, they're unshockable but can't kill a Kird Ape when attacking.

3-drop critters

Phyrexian War Beast Efficient boltproof critter at the upper end of our mana curve.  First turn PWB with a second turn Bonesplitter makes for some fun times.
Should something else be in this slot?


Though our men are efficient, they're a bit weak while unarmed.  Here we can give them some muscle and weaponry.

Unholy Strength Is it worth the risk of card disadvantage?  +2 for one mana is really efficient, but with such fragile creatures, it may not pan out.
Bonesplitter The best common equipment, giving +2 power for a total of two mana.  When lacking other first turn plays, this could be cast (though it doesn't do much as we have no Hasted critters for play+equip on the second turn).
Vulshok Morningstar Three extra mana compared to Unholy Strength for one measly toughness.  However, this doesn't die with the creature, and moves many out of bolt range.


Snuff Out It's hard to bury black critters while staying with the realm of commons, but at least this can be cast out of nowhere, to free up our mana to play threats.
Consume Spirit We might not have enough mana to make it hurt much, but it kills black creatures, can finish an opponent, and can keep us alive.
Corrupt If we can get 6 mana, this is more efficient than the Drain Life family.
Diabolic Edict This can get rid of anything the above cards cannot, if we're lucky enough to kill their other creatures.  The targeted destruction provided by the "Terror family" may be better.

Discard Option

Is this feasible without a constant source of discard such as the Hippie?

Funeral Charm An old-school favorite.  I wonder why Pikula sideboarded Darkblast in his Deadguy Ale, when this seems so much more flexible.  Pump your critters to reach for the kill, bury opposing utility creatures (even black ones), or finish the discard job that your other cards started.  Sure these are situational uses that may leave it dead in hand, but so much more so for Darkblast!  Is the Dredge ability so powerful?
Hymn to Tourach Scratching the top of our self-imposed price limits, this is among the more efficient discard cards in print.
Duress Useful to get rid of dangerous cards.

Proposed Decklist

// Mana (22)
    18  Swamp
    4  Dark Ritual

// Creatures (18)
    4  Order of the Ebon Hand (3)
    2  Wretched Anurid
    4  Phyrexian War Beast (1)
    4  Carnophage
    4  Dauthi Slayer

// Critter pumps (4)
    4  Bonesplitter

// Destruction and Disruption (16)
    3  Funeral Charm
    4  Hymn to Tourach (1)
    3  Snuff Out
    4  Duress
    2  Consume Spirit

General Notes:

I don't play sideboards in casual play, so I haven't thought too much about that.  Some peasant magic formats allow the use of a few uncommons, for which I'd add Hippies and some supporting discard spells.  I was pleasantly surprised by the number of decent black creatures that conform to the stated goals.  Without Hymns, I think everything can be acquired for under $1 per card.  Obviously, this isn't meant to be a tournament-viable deck, but any suggestions for improvement are more than welcome. 

Should I run...

... more/different creature hate, for the naturally creature-filled casual/newbie meta?
... more pumpers to speed the kill and tangle with opposing fatties?
... something more beefy, to retain effectiveness in the mid/late game?
... anything else?

Thanks for reading!

The Cheap Ass Series:
CAMBA: Cheap-Ass Mono-Black Aggro
CARGA: Cheap-Ass Red-Green Aggro
16  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Equipment quickies on: July 29, 2007, 05:12:21 pm
5. Thanks!  I've got one more.  We all know that if I bolt a White Knight in response to a Holy Strength targeting the Knight, the Knight dies and the Holy Strength fizzles, thus going into the graveyard. 

What if I bolt the Knight in response to a Sword of Fire and Ice equipping that Knight?  The Knight dies as before, but what happens to the Sword?  Stays in play, or goes to graveyard cause the target is lost?  Thanks!

EDIT: 6. Guess it's two more.  This is a more generic sort of situation I think... two 2/2 Grizzly Bears have a fight, one is equipped with Banshee's Blade.  They deal their 2 combat damage to each other.  By the time the Equipment sends the charge counter in to toughen up the equipped bear, he's already gone to bear heaven.  Thus the equipped bear dies because adding the counter is done after the damage already resolves and kills the bear, right?
17  Vintage Community Discussion / Casual Forum / Re: b/u discard deck on: July 26, 2007, 09:58:06 am
Please ignore this post... I wrote it before I studied the modern card pool and deck-building theory enough, and as a result I sound like a complete fool.  I still think the deck might do a little better than the original post's list, but honestly...

Hmm, people seemed to have lost interest in this, but it just so happens that I've been trying to build up a mono-black version of this deck.  The popular splash now is actually White, as evidenced by the Legacy B/w Confidant deck.  It would be fun to play, but there are a lot of cards in it I simply don't have so I'm going for mono-black. 

I'm curious why you're splashing blue... or at least why you're splashing those cards.  Besides a little deck manipulation and the end-game beatdown, it doesn't seem to add a lot.  Also, discard traditionally uses a lot of black, and your endgame critter needs two blue.  You will likely need an expensive mana base to cast everything, but ultimately the blue splash doesn't seem to be doing anything you couldn't do with black.  For more ideas on a blue splash, this writeup might give some ideas.

Anyway, here's what my current idea is like:

18 Swamp (Power could be added here for speed, if playing Vintage)
  2 Lake of the Dead (speed starting at turn 3, bigger drains)
  4 Dark Ritual (speed)

  4 Hypnotic Specter (Staple card)
  4 Nezumi Shortfang (Instant-speed discard, turns into a 3/3 Rack)
  4 Dark Confidant (massive speed, note the low casting costs used)
  4 Pump Knight (Doesn't really fit in... see below)

  4 Hymn to Tourach (Staple card)
  4 Duress (Good first turn move if we don't draw a Ritual)
  2 Mind Twist (Unrestricted in Vintage, banned in Legacy.  Depends on who you play)

 3 Megrim (Racks might be better, but this is a bit of a staple)
 1 Demonic Tutor (Banned in Legacy)
 2 Necrogen Mists (et. al. see below)
 1 Dauthi Embrace (push attackers through, likely not efficient)

 4 Diabolic Edict (or Sudden Death, Terror, etc.  depending on what the popular critters are)
 4 Drain Life (Recovers life lost to Confidant, takes out critters or go for the win.)

Some Notes:

Nezumi Shortfang seems like a very versatile solution.  Allows you to have them discard at the end of their draw phase so they don't keep their cards as long, turns into a Rack, and 3/3 later on isn't too shabby.

The pump knight should likely be something else, but I was thinking it'd be good for damage.  Specters aside, critters that force a discard are inefficient.  An interesting idea is to use Specter's Shroud, which allows us to use more efficient creatures and punch through with Dauthi Embrace for discard plus damage.

If you aren't using Twists, Stupor has Hymn's nice 2 for 1 ratio but costs 3. One question I have is how many Instant/Sorcery discard cards you really need.  Eventually the Hypnos, Nezumis, and Necrogen Mists (or equivalent) should take over, keeping them at 0-1 cards in hand at all times.  The Sorceries and Instants should just hold out long enough for you to get to that point.

Megrims stop working quite as well towards the end, but a Rack should be able to do 3 damage per turn.

Among the auto-discard permanents, Honden of Night's Reach is likely the best.  It forces the discard during your upkeep, so they can't keep a card to use as you attack.  Also, it doesn't make you discard.  Unfortunately, it costs 4 and is Legendary.

This is just my first draft, so it is likely riddled with problems.  More 1-drops would be nice, for example.  If we weren't drawing like mad, Cursed Scrolls would round out the damage.  The target of my discard deck will be casual play, in which it might be good enough.  Another goal of mine is to keep it reasonably cheap.  The four Confidants are the most expensive thing here, but building up from scratch would still likely take $100 or more.  I'm just relying on cards I had before I stopped playing a few years back.  Any suggestions? =)
18  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Equipment quickies on: July 26, 2007, 07:30:33 am
I'm coming back to magic after a few years away, and am considering adding some equipment to my casual white weenie deck.  After reading the comprehensive rulebook, some things are still unclear to me.  Confirmation would be greatly appreciated!

1. I have a critter with equipped Equipment.  The critter dies (say to combat damage) and the Equipment detaches and sits around in play until it's attached to another critter.

2. Artifacts' continuous effects are no longer affected by whether or not the artifact is tapped.  If someone taps my Equipment with a Twiddle, any continuous effects it might have are unaffected, i.e. they are still active as if the Equipment were untapped.

EDIT: 3: Unless I have a card that specifically allows it, I can't arbitrarily choose to unequip equipment, right?  In other words, equipment stays equipped until some unequip effect occurs or the creature is killed.

4. If an equipped token phases out, it leaves the game, and any equipment remains out of game for the remainder of the game.  If a non-token creature with equipment is removed with Swords to Plowshares, does the equipment fall off and stay in play, as in question 1 above?  In both cases the critter is leaving game, though it seems equipment follows the equipped creature when the creature phases out, so that might cause a difference in resolution.

I thought I had more, but I guess that's it (for now!).  Thanks!
19  Vintage Community Discussion / Community Introductions / Re: Introduce Yourself on: July 25, 2007, 09:36:50 am
Curby here, from sunny/rainy/snowy New Mexico. =)  I've been playing on and off for years, but haven't done much in the past few years.  Turned out they finally made a better Savannah Lion!  I'm interested in getting my White Weenie deck back up to speed, though apparently now it uses huge angels.  hmph.  Red/Green has always been a favorite combo of mine, so I'll be looking there too.  See you around on the Casual and Vintage boards!
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