Chalice Black

[Arthur King]

Does it bother anyone else that this has no form of removal?
It feels like a metagamed deck against sligh.
I was considering playing this over B/g Void, and i feel like deeds would be sorely missed, or if youre playing monoblack, kegs.
Sure you have spheres and chalices, but is that really enough?
Id feel safer with maybe a pair of edicts, or something
When I played sui, i realized that it was fast enough to kill without much removal, but this feels like it would give a much slower feel and I'd need something to take out a tog. Or such.

EDIT: More ideas\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Razor @ Oct. 10 2003,07:53)If they cast stuff for Challice to counter in order to survive Vise this too supports the idea that Vise>Hymn doesn't it.

No, because Chalice makes the card dead weight in the first place, and with Vice you're not going to be making them "discard" anything they were going to use.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

I like Sphere of Resistence here, but not necessarily more than Nether Void.

First of all, you have enough Rituals that Void can be easy enough to drop early. And in general, you want Sphere out after you've disrupted and gotten a threat rolling, by which time you should have enough mana for Void. And the obvious reason for Void being that once you have established your position you want to shut down, not just slow down, the opponents spells. 1 mana makes a difference early or against combo, but 3 mana always makes a difference. And finally, if I see Chalice for 2 my disruption is hindered but I'll still have Void on hand (Chalice for 0 or 1 is barely significant).

With Chalice, I'll feel more safe running Negators in Void, something I've always wanted to do. So I'm building two Mirrodin black decks, one is Suicide (without Sphere), and this is my new Void deck:

Void Squared.dec

//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//The Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Nether Void

//Beatdown
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

//Broken Shit
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp

I'd like to fit a Spoils of the Vault in there just to have one more tutor. I'm considering Lotus Petal but I haven't included it in this build because I'm not sure about it yet.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

i like sphere because games now are really dictated by early plays, void is just too slow. a card that has no impact early game (besides a ritual cast) is not going to be all that effective.

also, to even the curve try therapy out. its not a good drain target(unlike unmask) and can get arround chalice.\n\n

[MisterShark]

The point about the early game plays deciding games and Void being a little too slow to prevent those early spells is accurate, which is why I'm thinking Chalice dropped for 0 or 1 fills this hole nicely.

If you can stop early Moxes, Ancestrals, Brainstorms, etc., then you hopefully drop your Void shortly thereafter.
Having your attackers cruising in unmolested by StPs, Bolts, etc. is also nice.

A few Kegs seem prudent for backup against stuff that might have slipped through the cracks, or to get rid of one of your own Chalices should you want to sneak a Duress through for whatever the reason.
Thoughts?

[hippie tourach]

wu, what would you take out for Therapy?

A Void is effective early game "with a ritual cast," and the number of rituals in this deck is 7 or 8. So Void is often an early game card. And when it's not, disruption has a way of making the early game longer so Void still drops when they're vulnerable.

Keg is a card that sounds like a good idea, but the deck doesn't have a spot for. The most significant of the opponent's permanents, creatures, that get through are covered by Factories and Shades. It can't do much about artifacts that get through except stopping them from being cast in the first place, which it's very good at. So Keg doesn't doesn't deserve a spot as much as anything else.

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (hippie tourach @ Oct. 10 2003,22:02)wu, what would you take out for Therapy?

A Void is effective early game "with a ritual cast," and the number of rituals in this deck is 7 or 8. So Void is often an early game card. And when it's not, disruption has a way of making the early game longer so Void still drops when they're vulnerable.

Keg is a card that sounds like a good idea, but the deck doesn't have a spot for. The most significant of the opponent's permanents, creatures, that get through are covered by Factories and Shades. It can't do much about artifacts that get through except stopping them from being cast in the first place, which it's very good at. So Keg doesn't doesn't deserve a spot as much as anything else.

i run therapy over hymn, and i love the damn thing.

i would much rather cast a mini-void and disruption/threat on the same turn . i just dont want to waste my rituals and other accel on an early 4cc card that is meant to seal a game on turn 1-3. shere is there to slow the game down and keep it on your own pace. it leaves you more time to get that ever important few point of damage in.

void has too much of an impact for me, and make me play a more control oriented game. disrupt, drop thread, drop void, hope. i think its more valid to be able to disrupt more over the whole game than just in the late.

also how do you use void as an early game card as a 3 of, would preaching its a good early game card not warrant it a 4th slot? ;}

also on keg, i was going to run SB kegs but realized why should i? i should be dealing with the threats anyhow. the keeper player should not have a huge decree or be able to cast trenches. and well most of the deck can deal with aggro as it is.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

I will try Therapy in Hymn's spot, but my (main) problem with it is that 1cc is the likely level for a Chalice (yours or theirs), so a higher cost spell would be more convenient. Other than that, I'm not sure 8 creatures and 4 Factories is enough to fuel the flashback when they should be steering for the win.

I don't think that Void's effect is much of a disadvantage. Even if I can't play disruption (except Strips) for a couple of turns after I drop it, I'll be drawing into mana faster than my opponent, so I can start disrupting again before they hit their critical mass of mana. Void decks (and this is a Void deck with or without N.Void) don't just aim to buy time for a few points of damage, they aim to protect a threat by practically shutting down the opponent when it's in play. Towards that end, I think Void does the job better than Sphere.

Quote also how do you use void as an early game card as a 3 of, would preaching its a good early game card not warrant it a 4th slot? ;}

Well, in spite of the fact that I don't own a 4th Void, I suppose it should be in there... Although the 2 tutors often go for Void, as would Spoils of the Vault if I could find a spot for it. So you could say that my 4th Void will be Spoils.

In any case, I will test Sphere in place of Void to see what it's all about.

[EDIT: But it's not very encouraging when my first testing hand is:
2 Swamp/Lotus/Ritual/Shade/Consultation/Sphere
That hand is one reason Void rocks.]\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Quote (hippie tourach @ Oct. 12 2003,18:04)[EDIT: But it's not very encouraging when my first testing hand is:
2 Swamp/Lotus/Ritual/Shade/Consultation/Sphere
That hand is one reason Void rocks.]

If anything, I'd view that as a reason to play Sphere, because now you have the mana to Consult for Duress and make sure everything resolves.

[hippie tourach]

Against control I play Swamp/Lotus/Consult/Duress/Shade, then 2nd turn Swamp/Ritual/Void.

Against almost anything else (including combo) that hand is game.

Resolving a Duress, Shade, and Sphere first turn is not bad, but it's beatable.

[Arthur King]

How does something like this do against MUD?

[Zherbus]

Obviously, not well.

[Arthur King]

Well then what would you be siding in for the MUD matchup?

[Mykeatog]

I have been playing MUD for the last month, and it really pisses me off that I don't have a regular round win over ANY suicide deck.

But, I don't have a top8 loss to you either.

Get Chalice or Rod out before the Mud player has a turn, and you can catch them with there pants down.

[Methuselahn]

Quote (Arthur King @ Nov. 09 2003,23:08)Well then what would you be siding in for the MUD matchup?

I have been using Contagion maindeck recently.  Easy to cast with a single sphere out, and an instant.  Contagion can take out both welders and metalworkers.  Oh, and 'Togs, nueter Morphling, fish, gobbos and much more.  They are so Sphere, Nether Void, and Chalice friendly, it is sick.

[herby]

i can't stop watching marks avatar.
it rules.

oh, the deck has tested well too.
good job

[Battousai]

I think 3-4 maindeck Wretch are very good in the current environment. It hurts so many decks, from Hulk to combo, anything running Welder to anything running Yawgmoth's will. I think it should definately be included, but am not sure on what to cut. Any ideas?

[Tristal]

I completely agree, Battousai!  I cut two Sinkholes for two Wretches.  I should point out though that I stopped playing this deck, as I feel it is absolutely and completely hopeless against anything with Workshops (Before and after switching Sinks for Wretches.)

[Arthur King]

I've been doing fairly well against Stax after a few games of testing,most games broke down 2-1 or 1-2.
And I was under the impression that after about 10-15 games, we about broke even.
Maybe ending with him having a 2-3 game lead.\n\n

[Razor]

What a fantastic deck.  I thought I'd post my Sideboard for the current metagame.  I miss the 4th Wretch but I feel that Purge is just a tad better and just cannot bring myself to SB 8 graveyard hate cards.

//Sideboard: 15
4 Coffin Purge [graveyard hate]
3 Withered Wretch [graveyard hate]
4 Contagion [anti: Aggro, Boas, Metalworkers, Monkies, Welder, Fish, manlands, etc.]
4 Masticore [anti-Aggro, anti-Landstill]

Are your Sideboards looking similar?\n\n

[Arthur King]

Are the Masticores working for you?
Even against aggro, I usually find myself to be good with just 4 contagion.
Most things get stopped with chalice and im left with a few crits that contagion takes care of nicely.

All that graveyard hate, is that a metagame call?

[Methuselahn]

How is the matchup vs Mask and Dragon with that sideboard Ray?

chalice, spheres, and LD really seem like dead cards here.

I try to use Contagion and Diabolic Edict together.  They complement each other nicely.  Edicts handle the 'Noughts, WDragons, Morphlings, and Quiron Dryads. (which, if resolved, totally laugh at chalice)

[Razor]

I do see Dragon, Survival and Workshop decks frequently, hence all the graveyard hate.  I'd consider running Planar Voids SB except doing so would probably make Dragon's Deeds a little better.

I haven't faced 'Nought in awhile, but now that you mention them, Edicts seem like a swell idea.  For that matter, I haven't faced Aggro in awhile, either so I am uncerain if I'll need all 4 'Cores that often.  I am also curious to see how effective they are versus a tight Landstill deck.

Is anyone using Unmask over Hymn?  Random removal of 2 cards (some of which may already be dead to CotV) may not be as good as targetted removal of one bomb.  However, I do enjoy Hymning away their mana-sources.

I will try these SB changes: -3 Wretches, +3 Edict.

[Methuselahn]

Well, I always seem to want Unmask over Hymn vs. Tog, Workshops, Dragon, and Long.  Like you said, targeted removal of bombs and certain combo pieces is much, MUCH, more valuable than random discard.  

I guess, if you are expecting a large tourny with a fair amount of randomness in the field go with Hymns.  I think they get you to the upper tables.  Of course, the hymns are not as good there tho.  Smaller tournaments where the players are more experienced on average and have better decks is ripe for Unmask.  With the 4 Chalice plan, the pitch drawback almost seems nonexistant, as you often have Voided black cards.

[Arthur King]

Why arent chains being used against dragon? I would think that would work wonderfully. They arent bad against tog either.

[Tristal]

I think I might be playing this deck wrong, then.  But what do you do against a Stax player's opening hand containing Welder and Smokestack?  They don't even have to be first turn - but if you Duress their Stack, they just drop Welder and stomp on you; if you can edict their Welder, you have no permanents in play for a Smokestack... it's a very frustrating matchup. -_-