[Article] Chalice OTV: The New Black Vise

[hippie tourach]

Quote Sure, the theory of it looks pretty bad, but in theory ICT should have won every game.

RESTRICT SEDGE TROLL!

I mean, think about it, 3/3 regenerating for 3 mana. Seriously, if that doesn't stop me from playing a deck that costs less than $500, I don't know what will. If you want the format to be fun/not degenerate, restrict Sedge Troll, Mana Drain, and Nev. Disk, they just make ICT too powerful! When Random-Miser adds Workshop and Chalice to ICT, then we can get them restricted.

[jpmeyer]

The idea of cutting down the power level in Type 1 so that budget decks can compete reeks of New Coke-ness.

[Bastian]

Quote No other competitive magic format has a wide variety of viable decks, so why should that be true for T1? And allowing cheaper decks to compete should never be a reason for restrictions/bannings; 1.5 exists for a reason.

Very good point, and I was thinking on making the transition to type 1.5 because of the predominance of workshop decks in type 1, but... unless workshops are restricted or banned in vintage they will also appear in type 1.5. Not as powerful for sure, because there's no moxen, but even so it's a very powerful land, and to make matters worse chalice will be legal there as well along with the workshop.

What's the big difference then? I don't scoop on turn 1 with my sligh deck to scoop on turn 2?

There's really no difference. So because of these two cards I don't play type 1... That's ok, I can accept the fact that type 1 is a fast, broken environment, but hey, I still wanna play with old cards. So I go to type 1.5 to find the same restrictive cards: workshop and chalice, messing that format as well?

What am I left with? Extended? Which is bond to have a rotation that'll throw out two of the best blocks next year?

[Zoofields]

Quote That's ok, I can accept the fact that type 1 is a fast, broken environment, but hey, I still wanna play with old cards. So I go to type 1.5 to find the same restrictive cards: workshop and chalice, messing that format as well?

Workshop based decks are great in 1.5 but I don't think that they warp the format by any stretch of the imagination.  wMUD does pretty well, but I'd say that it is definetly not making other decks unviable.

As a result of the slowed nature of 1.5 as compared to Type 1, Chalice will be good in 1.5, but it won't destroy the format.  Outside of Trenches and wMUD I don't think that anyone will run it--at least not in any deck that I can think of that is currently played.  Whether or not Chalice or Workshop gets banned in 1.5 because of Type 1, I don't think that it will really have much of an impact in 1.5 apart from ruining one deck.

[Bastian]

The possibility of playing a turn 1 chalice for 1 or a turn 2 chalice for 2 counters is enough to ruin the same decks in type 1.5 that get ruined in type 1 just as well. Just because there are no moxen and some other power cards doesn't mean that the cards, mainly the chalice, won't be disruptive.

I get the feeling that most of the players who are defending the chalice at all costs, even when it can mess with other formats, are those that at all costs want to keep their MUDs, their TNTs just the way they are.

Type 1 is the broken format, and if for it to remain its integrity I must move to another format, I accept that, even if it costs me. Now the moment that I try to move on to another format only to find the same cards that pushed me from the one I was on, then there's something pretty wrong in here. Type 1.5 isn't nearly as fast as type 1, but the simple possibility of being able to go workshop, and then land, chalice for 2 is already too good even for 1.5.

[hippie tourach]

Are the Workshop players defending Chalice or are the players who get beat by Workshop attacking it?

Probably both, so don't expect too many unbiased opinions from others or yourself. In any case, (from a non-Workshop player's perspective), a Workshop/Chalice draw is about a 1/4 probability, not too scary. And in T1.5 it's much harder to land Chalice for 2 when Workshop, then land is simply answered by Wasteland.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (hippie tourach @ Oct. 14 2003,18:18)When Random-Miser adds Workshop and Chalice to ICT, then we can get them restricted.

Code Sample <Smmenen> so miser
<Smmenen> what is the deck to  beat
<Smmenen> post mirrodin?
<Rndm-MisR> ICT w/Chalice = godly;/

Too bad. I was looking forward to a new environment.\n\n

[Hanzalot]

brianb said:

Quote The only way to wiggle out of the tiny hole between chalices and mana drains is to get high cc stuff out fast via tricks--bazaar/madness, workshop.  These strategies aren't accessible to most players in non-proxy t1 tourneys.  Restricting mana drain and chalice (along with the bunch of other stuff that needs it now) would relieve the pressure.

Yep, I'm sooo looking forward to this:

me: Forest, go
opp: Mountain, go
me: Forest, go
opp: Mountain, go
me: Forest, go
opp: Mountain, go
me: Forest, go
opp: Mountain, go
me: Forest, go
opp: Mountain, Fire Elemental
me: Forest, Craw Wurm

Just imagine the excitement - this is the way Type 1 always wanted to be.

Seriously, if everyone thought as much about working around Chalice as they do about getting it and other cards restricted, it would already have been done.

[illuminati]

Hate to break it to all the non 1.5 players but 1.5 is not a budget format either.  Mask / Shop / Drain / Berserk / Bazaar apear in the top decks in the format, in 4 of's except Berserk.  You also need duels / fetches / force of will etc in a lot of decks.

Also you have 4 Workshops, 4 Ancient Tomb, 3 City of Trators, 4 Metal Workers to power up chalice.  Its realy not that hard to abuse it for 6 mana on turn 2-3.\n\n

[MuzzonoAmi]

Quote (brianb @ Oct. 14 2003,12:56)Restricting mana drain and chalice (along with the bunch of other stuff that needs it now) would relieve the pressure.  Other counterspells (and the speed of the format in general) already punish players enough for playing to much fat.  Powder keg already is enough of a check on building your entire deck at 1cc.  I'm pretty confident that the DCI will do a fairly major cleanup of type 1 with the next list (to slow the fundamental turn down to the 3-3.5 range).  This should be their plan: restrict cards to slow the game down enough that keeper is good again--then restrict mana drain and maybe cunning wish to keep keeper from poisoning the environment too much.  Then we'd have some room to breathe and build.

Isn't that the same as saying 'ban everything until Necro is good, then ban Necro'?

I personally think that Chalice is going to call for a B/R update, but I feel that it would be better to restrict Donate and/or Illusions of Granduer and unrestrict Necro than it would be to ban or restrict Chalice or Workshop. With 4 Necropotence, Suicide and Void both get stronger, and resricting the Trix pieces would make the deck managable, as would Chalice. That puts a good budget aggro deck in the top teir and makes alot more decks viable, and Trix is designed to dig out its combo anyway, so getting the pieces restricted really just forces them to run more or better disruption. Chalice may kill Sligh, but it will make aggro like Zoo better, because they still get to use their control cards and their better creatures (Serendib Efreet and Blurred Mongoose) and Zoo is only marginally more expensive than Sligh if you don't run power/drains. And why not unrestrict Fact or Fiction while we're at it. I don't see it being shut out by a Chailce and it could make some interesting aggro-control and control decks better. And just about everyone here has admitted that no one was working at dethroning BBS. Let's give bad control another shot....then beat the shit out it.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

Quote I feel that it would be better to restrict Donate and/or Illusions of Granduer and unrestrict Necro than it would be to ban or restrict Chalice or Workshop.

Careful, you're making me cream my pants just thinking about 4x Necro... especially 4 Foil Necro... Ohhhhh...

[jpmeyer]

Necro can never be unrestricted.  It makes combos too easy.  Imagine Mask or Dragon fueled by Necro.  They'd be ridiculous.

[Matt The Great]

I don't know about Dragon, because Necro removes your discarded cards from the game. But you're right about Mask and just about any other combo.

[jpmeyer]

At that point, the combo would be drawing into Buried Alive and a reanimation spell instead of the three card style that Dragon uses now.

And this is not to mention all the other possible two-card combos that could come along.