Mychoda.dec

[badapple]

This deck split in the finals and another made top 8 at the 4power KC tourney. (see thread in tourney forum)
So many people have made comments on my deck that I thought I should explain some things.  First off I have been playing this deck for about 2 years, adding cards as new sets came out.  Versions of this have won me over 25 sanctioned events in a competitive, powered environment.  I know it looks like a pile, but everything is there for a reason.
For those who have not seen it in the other post:

Mychoda.dec
---------------------
4 Blood Moon
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Null Rod
3 Stormbind
3 Squee
4 Eldamari's Vineyard
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 River Boa
2 Blastoderm
1 Gigepede
1 Masticore
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Druid Lyrist
1 Dawnstrider
1 Anger
1 Genesis
2 Wasteland
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Taiga

SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Druid Lyrist
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Goblin Vandal
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Masticore
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Spike Feeder
-----------------------------

The deck basically wants to lay first turn birds, vineyard, or sol/crypt.  Second turn blood moon, null rod, survival, or beatsticks.  I'll do some card by card analysis.

Blood moon:  This is the sole reason this deck wins tourneys.  Very few decks is this card dead against.  Some decks it is an auto win, or makes them try to find mox mana in a hurry.  Combine with null rod and people start scooping.

Survival of the fittest:  The draw engine for the deck.  Gets utitlity critters to blow up things or provides a steady stream of beatsticks.  Provides cool tricks with Anger and Genesis.

Eladamri's Vineyard:  Probably the most contraversial card in the deck.  People often say "but it helps opponent out too".  This is usually irrelevant unless they are playing combo.  Often times I beat aggro cause they are burning for 4 every turn.  This card is KEY in the deck as it powers survival and lets you throw out fatties early.  Against almost anything blue, they side out for Carpet of Flowers.

Stormbind:  This card is great in the deck, but contrary to popular (Eastman) belief, it is rarely the kill.  Clears the board of annoying critters and sometimes does the final points of damage.  With Squee it is very easy to do 4+ pts a turn.

Squee, Goblin Nabob:  Powers survival and stormbind.  Amazing synergy with Masticore, Dawnstrider, and Gigapede.  Can block something every turn if needed.

Null Rod:  These are not usually maindeck, but I expected lots of power and maybe sceptors.  Works mostly to deny artifact mana.

The rest of the deck is mainly utility creatures and attack guys.  Lots of one-ofs because you can just get them with survival and recur with genesis.

Don't know how well that explains it, but feel free to ask questions.

*EDIT*Looking over my list I noticed 4 River Boa might not be amazing against alot of the decks on this site.  In my local metagame, I seem to always be hating against blue contol variants using Morphling for kill.  Islandwalk is Some Good.

Posts merged, in the future please use the edit function.

Mo.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Are you sure you have the tools to handle Long and Workshop? Or are those not an issue?

Long can have crumble/overload for your rods, and really isn't scared of much else in the deck.

Workshop decks love vineyard on the table, and can start locking you down before your 2nd turn threat (going first, metalworker dumps their hand, going second they can play sphere, wire, etc.).\n\n

[pernicious dude]

This may have more of my favorite cards in it than any deck I've ever seen.

[Dante]

Good to see you doing well with your deck....maybe you could point out some sideboarding strategy?

On the SB Goblin Vandal, it seems that with only 1 copy, it won't come out turn 1-2 when you want it to (goblin decks play with 4) and by the time it does come out, you may not be able to attack with it (Karn, Tanglewire, creature removal).  Did you consider replacing it with something that is sure removal such as Keldon Vandal, Uktabi, or another Heretic?

Bill

[badapple]

@Jacob:  Didn't expect much Long due to Chalices, nor Workshop decks because of all the artifact hate in the meta.   Long is probably the deck's worst matchup as I have no way to stop 1st turn kill (other than 1st turn rod).  Vineyard can speed up Workshop, but also makes it harder to lock me down.

@Dante:  The vandal was last minute over 2nd heretic because I figured it would be easier to get out after they started dropping disruption.  SB strategy is pretty simple; just adds more utility.

[Hyperion]

I think the most relevant issue that needs to be addressed  is what advantages you are proposing that Mychoda.dec has versus TnT in the current metagame. Both of these decks have the SotF/utility creatures engine as a backbone of the deck, with some amount of fat thrown in (Juggernaut, Su-Chi, and co. versus Ravenous Baloth and Blastoderm). Both decks are well equipped to use Blood Moon. Your deck takes this basic structure and adds the SqueeBind combo for another means of board control and a win condition, but at the expense of a higher threat density and at the loss of a threat with a game-breaking ability like Goblin Welder.  One of your sources of mana acceleration (Vineyard) provides a symmetrical effect, whereas TnT's (Workshop) does not. I can think of a couple advantages this deck might have versus the rest of the format, but a lot more disadvantages.

I am sure you have taken this into account because most of those points are obvious to players that are familiar with both decks. By your posting this for discussion, I wasn't sure if you were suggesting that Mychoda.dec is a better choice in the current metagame (than other Survival-based decks that have seen success in the past), or just showing off a deck you've been working on. Which is perfectly fine - but I am curious, and wouldn't mind an elaboration on this topic. If you are in fact convinced that this is a more viable Survival deck, why is that so? On that same issue, the deck is labeled as a "hate deck" - but exactly what archetypes is this deck supposed to hate out? Or was it more a reference to the maindeck Null Rod and Blood Moon?

[badapple]

@Hyperion:  This deck was originally a budget Tools and Tubbies deck with tons of anti keeper cards.  No workshop, no power; in this case Welder was not as useful.

Vineyard has been the MVP of the mana structure of this deck.  4 colored mana on turn 2 is amazing.  This deck can use 2 green every turn better than any other non-combo deck.  If opponent is playing blue, which they always seem to be, these are sided out for Carpet of Flowers (even more amazing).

I think that "T1 hate deck" sums up maindeck: 4 Blood Moon, 3 Null Rod, 2 Gorilla Shamen, 3 Strips.

I can't really say if this deck is "better than" traditional T&T.  Lots of people play artifact killers now, and I'd take Blastoderm over Jugs anyway.  Genesis can provide recursion in a similar way as Welder, although not usually in the early game..

[Browser]

waSP always ran 4 MD Naturalize in his budget R/G deck.  I highly recommend it with the current meta-shift.  They are never dead and often game saving.

[badapple]

@Browser:  Maindeck Naturalize is not what this deck wants.  This is an aggressive deck and does not like to hold cards and wait.  1 Lyrist is better against enchantments because it can be searched with Survival and recurred with Genesis.  Null rod and Shamen take care of most artifacts; if not I side in Vandal and Heretic.  
If more people around here played Workshop based decks, I would throw Artifact Mutation in the board.\n\n

[slycaptainfox]

I think that Hyperion and others need to understand one thing about the meta in KC, and that is that we have what I would call an "isolated" or "poor" metagame, meaning that most people in the area can't afford power and those who can are, in general, "old school blue based control players" or just bad players in general.
      In our environment there might be 1 combo deck per each 16-20 person tournament and that combo is probably outdated like old academy or a bad 5 color dragon deck with 16 basic lands.
     The truth is KC's meta is stuck in the past where sligh makes up 1/4 of the decks in most tourneys and blue based control still reigns supreme.  
     So you can see why Pierce's MyChoda.dec is incredibly successful (he wins nearly 1/2 of the mox tournaments down here)(too bad he never keeps the power)\n\n

[Rico Suave]

If I were playing a "hate" or "metagame" deck there's no doubt in my mind I would play 5 strips, even in the presence of Blood Moon.

[Eastman]

Quote (slycaptainfox @ Nov. 06 2003,13:13)I think that Hyperion and others need to understand one thing about the meta in KC, and that is that we have what I would call an "isolated" or "poor" metagame, meaning that most people in the area can't afford power and those who can are, in general, "old school blue based control players" or just bad players in general.
      In our environment there might be 1 combo deck per each 16-20 person tournament and that combo is probably outdated like old academy or a bad 5 color dragon deck with 16 basic lands.
     The truth is KC's meta is stuck in the past where sligh makes up 1/4 of the decks in most tourneys and blue based control still reigns supreme.  
     So you can see why Pierce's MyChoda.dec is incredibly successful (he wins nearly 1/2 of the mox tournaments down here)(too bad he never keeps the power)

Play an updated combo deck.

[Smmenen]

I did.  

No seriously, the last tournament where both of these decks did top 8 was no scrub fest.  I have played in scrub fests before - many, and I have played in many good type one tournaments before - many, and this was much closer to the latter than the former.  I beleive the top 8 to be a misrepresentation of the field due to matchup issues.

However, I will say that I think hate decks are a terrible idea in type one.

And here is the why:  In Type One you always play the best deck - not the anti-deck.  The reason is that the anti-deck is never inherently powerful.  So while it will (sometimes - and not even reliably) beat the deck it is aimed at - it often just dies to another tier one deck or even strong tier two decks.

Hate decks do not win Type One tournaments - and if they do, there is a lack of diversity of the tier one decks.  That said, of all the hate decks I have seen, this clearly hits more good decks than most.  

Steve

[badapple]

@ skytaylor:  Aside from all the major tourneys in our area, there are few combo decks played why?  Because "5colorUUcontrol" has DOMINATED for the past 6 years!  In every local event (sometimes 4 a week) you knew that to win it there would be at least 1 full powered keeper decks of some sort in your way.  And generally it was the best players playing them.  
I think 1/4 sligh is a bit much; maybe 1/10.  So how often do YOU beat Mychoda.dec?  

@Rico:  Usually I do play more strips.  Last minute borrow for emerald and another fetch made me ditch the last 2.

@smmenen:  I agree that "hate decks" are bad.  The top8 had 2 Mychoda.dec because Null Rods and Blood Moons allowed me to plow over almost everyone I played.

[Ric_Flair]

First off, good deck.  Hate or not, I like the look and feel of this deck.

Second of all, how does the deck do against budget builds like Sui or Sligh?  Playing in Power tournaments is great, but in most of the events I have been to there is a layer scrub to work through.  

What advantages does this deck have over Hyperion's Virtual Madness deck?  I know it has more hate, but that deck is brutally fast.

Have you explored the interaction between the discard outlets and Arrogant Wurm?  He seems like a solid addition if the random discard can be brought under control.

How does the deck fair in terms of removing permanents?  The Shamans are your only maindeck Artifact removal.  This seems risky.  What do you do against an early Smokestack?  Maybe an Sex Monkey or two could help.  

Have you thought about Cursed Scroll seeing as the deck seems to drop its hand so fast?  

Why not more Derms?  They seem like they would be a house against certain decks.

Supposing the metagame is not so much blue, what do you recommend in the Boa slot?

Thanks.

[Gzeiger]

Care to explain the name?

[slycaptainfox]

@pierce(badapple) I dont think you understood what im saying.  I am trying to say that your deck is the perfect deck to hate our entire environment.  I was also saying that one of the reasons is that this deck doesn't even need power(which is why an updated combo deck is almost out of the question because of lack of the P9).

PS-
I did beat your deck in the finals of the last mox tournament of the season remember?

Taylor

[pernicious dude]

With so many shuffle effects, Sylvan Library could be very good.

Cursed Totem could be very bad.
An Uktabi Orangutan answers it, and many other things.

I'd hate to lose my Angerification to Wasteland.
One Mountain?

[Eastman]

what purpose does stormbind serve?

[Equal Damage]

the stormbind serves the same purpose as a scroll or burn in a sligh deck would, allowing beat to go to the head and not be stopped by a 'phid or some such.
as well as he said squee and stormbind is hella sexy, if stormbind resolves its durable and can change the game real fast.

EqD

[Razor]

FYI, here is a link to my beatdown-flavoured, Aggro:Control version of this deck which went 13th at the 75-odd person first TMD invitational:

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;hl=raz

At that time I was considering testing Survivals, toolbox critters and Blasto'puppies, too.  bebe firmly encouraged me to run the Blastopups, but I wasn't ready yet.

I am currently running 3 MD Masticores, and 4 MD Stormbind (no 'pede) to maximize effective abuse of 3 MD Squee.  I am considering running Bazaar of Baghdad to help abuse Squee.  Even when Blood Moon is out, Bazaars will still serve as nonbasic mountains.

The Basic Land Problem:

I have found that the biggest problem with both Dwarven Miner and Blood Moon is that they don't wreck basic dirt.  Fetchies almost always get basic dirt first.  Turn 1 Fetchies are therefore a big problem for RG Control decks.  Hence, I've been running 4 maindeck Pillages for awhile.  Simply put, I can often kill all the basic land in most top decks whilst my Miners, Moons and Monkies (triple-M) wreck the remaining coloured mana.  Pillage, Monkey and Blood Moon (possibly Miners)should always be run together.

I found 3 maindeck Bind to be generally useful at 'stifling' fetchlands if I got to go first and dropped a mox turn 1, hence I ran full-powered (off-coloured) when I tested Bind.  5 Moxen also sped up my Miners making them a real danger in my opening hand.  Their new ability to gobble-up non-basic mountains under Blood Moon is just cool under new 8th ed. errata.

Pillage is better than Bind however because basic land belongs in their graveyard.

Rishadan Ports are another good idea, though I've not tested them.  4 SB to swap for Wastes games 2 and 3?

Survivalable Toolbox Friends:

Your Dawnstrider idea is tech!

Xantid Swarm might rain on Blue's parade.  I personally hate blue.  A lone, survivable Quirion Dryad might work, too.

I suggest Sex Monkies (Uktabi Orangutans) over Goblin Vandals.  Wall of Roots maindeck might offer you similar acceleration to the Vineyards without the drawback of helping your opponent sometimes (similar to the way Mana Drain helps them sometimes).  Woodrippers and or Verduran Emissary are nifty options, too.  Have you tried Thornscape Familiar which might act as more survivalable acceleration?

Please SB Goblin Welder against Workshop decks and Sylvan Safekeeper versus Plowshare decks.

I haven't found River Boa too worthwhile, and wouldn't bother with him if it weren't for Rancor which makes him a decent clock.

Grim Lavamen are great.

I may test Gurzigost because he is huge, supertramples and is fat (6/8) for cheap (5cc).

Troll Ascetic looks like he'd be at home in here.  Rancor'ing him would be drop-dead sexee!  He even serves as a decent mana-sink under your Vineyards.

Other stuff:

5 MD Strips, no exceptions ~ don't kid yourself that turn 1 Library won't wreck you.  Blood Moon may not resolve.  Destroying land at the lowly cost of a land drop is some good I hear.

I haven't run E.Vineyards in a version with Blood Moon before.  However, I have liked watching my opponents burn under them whilst they struggle for blue mana.  I wouldn't like helping opponents resove big problems like DoJ (Decree) resolve so make sure you run heavy LD base with Vineyards to keep em colour-screwed.  Well of Knowledge, Killer Bees, Argothian Wurms, CotH, Thresher Beasts, man-lands, and Still Life are all decent choices to run alongside Vineyards.  I really enjoy their synergy with Jokulhaups actually; hence Turbo'Bliterate.

Petrified Field, Holistic Wisdom and Cartographers have caught my eye more than once because they can bring back Wastes or even Strip.  Crop Rotation, Weathered Wayfarers might make Strip Mine more easily accessible.  Similarly, Survival+Genesis might make Avalanche Riders work well in here.

Would SB Choke not be superior to Carpet of Flowers?

You could drop the MD Null Rods in lieu of the much faster CotV (Challices) since your version is unpowered.  FYI, I run 2-4 MD Naturalize and 4 SB Rack and Ruins to more easily deal with Smokestack and TnT decks.

Lightning Bolts are a must imo.  Aggro can simply run these decks over if left unchacked for too long.  Even 'Phids and Welders will wreck us oftimes before Stormbind can fix them.  Ideally you'll main one lone FTK to utterly own Aggro with.

I've advocated for Stormbind over Cursed Scroll and discussed Scald and Choke in threads before, example:
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....ormbind

We've discussed C.Scrolls, Mongeese, Blood Moon and Stormbind here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=4427

I believe that SpecialK told you about my RG SqueeBind deck in IRC last month.  I'm glad you're helping to tweek the concepts.  RG Aggro:Control is so good that it won't stay rogue for long.

Here is one of the versions I tested in September 2003.  I have since substituted 4 BoPs for 4 Miners, dropped the Molds, dropped the 2 'Pedes, added 4 Blasto'puppies, and upped the number of green fetchlands to 6 to promote double-G mana under Blood Moon.  I am at the point now where I am ready to drop the number of each critter so that I can Survival out just what I need on demand.

//Name: RG Bind Moon v.1.4
//By Ray Mitchell
//ray@webinmotion.net
//2003-September-18
//Cards: 60/15
//
//Mana: 24
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
//
//Critters: 17
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Dwarven Miner
4 Masticore
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Gigapede
//
//Disruption: 19
4 Naturalize
4 Blood Moon
4 Stormbind
4 Pillage
2 Creeping Mold
1 Regrowth
//
//Sideboard: 15
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt
//

All in all, I'd be glad to swap lists or discuss ideas in MSN Messenger~ lemme know.\n\n

[Black Explosion]

Razor, no offense, but your deck is something COMPLETELY different. No survival means no Pierce.dec. If you remove the survivals, IMHO I think R\G zoo would be a much better choice.

Generally, the deck isn't going to have any trouble with a deck that is running all basics. Sligh, Fish, Sui, Stompy. The only exception I can see is Parfait, which would probably wreck Pierce.dec.

Also, Workshop decks aren't an issue for the KC metagame; there is only 1 set here, and the person who plays them (Rando) doesn't play very much. There are more full sets of power than there are shops in this city.

When I first started playing competitive type 1, I played this deck for about 4 months, at three type 1 tournies a week, so I actually have a working knowledge of the topic and am not speaking out of my a$$.

My $.02...

[kirdape3]

I'm actually confused as to how this deck beats aggro at all.  Sure, it's Survival, but at the same time they can just show up with Virtual Madness, use their Bazaar one time before you Blood Moon it, and have 10 power of hasted flying creatures coming at you.  (That's about the only time that Madness does anything at all, but it happens enough to be scary).  Mask gets stopped by both Null Rod and Dawnstrider, but at the same time it gets to be able to pound out 12/12s by turn 2.  That's very fast against you - it will be a little while before you're fully online as far as disruption goes and Mask will punish you.

Goblins literally goes 'Mountain, Lackey, extend the hand?'.  Your creature removal is very inefficient - Squeebind takes 3RG plus Squee the first time, and by then you're staring down about 15 billion creatures.  I guess you still have Survival for Masticore, but that's asking an awful lot out of them to not have a strong enough start to keep you stuck on two or three mana.  At worst, they'll Vineyard out a Siege-Gang Commander and you just lose.

I guess you beat Suicide and Stompy (Dawnstrider is game), but all I see you beating consistently are bad blue-based control decks from three years ago and those two creature-removal bereft aggro decks.

[badapple]

Generally goblin deck goes lacky burn for 2 green then stares at a 5/5 untargetable.


EDIT:  Could someone please close this post as no one seems to comprehend how the deck works and I am done trying to explain it.

[Dante]

Quote (badapple @ Nov. 08 2003,21:15)EDIT:  Could someone please close this post as no one seems to comprehend how the deck works and I am done trying to explain it.

To be fair, I think that the deck could have been explained better, maybe giving a small paragraph on each of the matchups.  

Also, some of the questions people have like "how do you deal with fat from Madness" have gone unanswered and things like "how are the workshop matchups, they seem bad for you" are answered by "we don't have workshops in KC".  So the people in environments that do have workshops sort of tune out....

I think you'd get better posts/responses if you explained matchup strategy more and gave some more strategy explanation instead of card descriptions...

Bill

[MolotDET]

CLOSED

as requested

MolotDET