Lets talk madness

[Rico Suave]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 14 2003,19:02)I fail to see the merrits of pure Aggro-Madness incomparison to Stacker. Stacker is arguably faster with Mishra's Workshop, more resistant to Stifle and Grave Yard Hate, has an equaly long lasting game plan with Goblin Welders, has an alternate kill condition with Goblin Charbelcher and better disruption in the forms of Pillar, Ankh, Chalice and even Bloodmoon. When you combine this with Stacker's healthier Manabase and lack of dependance on discard outlets ... what does Madness have to offer anymore over Stacker game 1?

Ok, let me address these one at a time.

Firstly, Madness is faster than Stacker.  Mishra's Workshop does not make up for Anger combined with bigger dudes equipped with smaller casting costs.  

Madness is affected by Stifle, but graveyard hate?  Graveyard hate is very weak versus a decent Madness player.  Things like Deep Analysis and Roar of the Wurm can be dumped and put on the stack before the opponent can even respond with graveyard hate.  

If you're going to consider the popularity of Stifle, then you also need to consider the popularity of artifact destruction.  It is quite obvious that the latter is far more prevalent in the environment.

Madness' mid and late game are far better than Stacker's are.  Even assuming Welder is on the same level as Bazaar - which it is not - Madness also packs no less than 6 other card drawers in addition to Bazaar, and oftentimes that number is higher.

Yes, Madness has less disruption.  What I don't get is why you cite things like Stifle and graveyard hate as reasons to run disruption, yet fail to realize that another threat is just as good as a disruption spell against those cards.  So what if your opponent Stifles an Arrogant Wurm?  Drop another threat.  Aggro-control Madness, on the other hand, will oftentimes suffer the situation where it wants to draw a threat but draws disruption instead, which is weak.  

Additionally, because you like to compare this to Stacker, what happens if Stacker's first threat is dealt with?  Oftentimes it won't have an extra threat to play in time, because it runs so few of them in comparison.

I don't understand what's not healthy about Madness's mana base.  Are you experiencing frequent mana screw?  Did it ever occur to you that you might have built your mana base incorrectly with 4 ESG and all the off-color Moxen?  

Madness does indeed need discard outlets to be as effective as possible.  

Madness has weaknesses and there are certain areas where it doesn't exceed Stacker.  That doesn't make up for the fact it is more consistent, faster, has a better late game, is immune to artifact destruction, and beats up on other aggro including Stacker.

[xrobx]

i agree largely with Rico Suave on this topic of madness vs stacker, and aggro madness in general.

As I mentioned, and was more recently mentioned by others, madness doesn't care so much about your disruption/counter, it'll just drop another threat; often in response.  Stifle doesnt concern me really in the least.  Sure it's a good card, and can hurt my lands, but if I know my opponent is playing them (after I've seen he has blue/control/whatever), I'll discard differently to my bazaars.  The whole notion of madness having a weak manabase is pretty lame I think.  I'd say that almost everytime I get a bazaar on the table, and I'm milling through my deck, I often have the choice of which land to discard, often between a nonbasic island/mountain/forest and a fetchland.  If you're running stifle, obviously I'll pitch the fetchland.  If you stifle a bazaar, I don't care, I'll do it next turn.  That is only effectively tapping one of my lands; twiddle does a better job of this

I've recently dropped 4 bloodmoons in the SB and picked up 4 Tormod's Crypt, as it helps slightly in the mirror match, and greatly against my weakest matchup (dragon.dec).

Again, I'm not playing in any local tournies/metagames and whatnot, just online, but I've been finding that this deck is owning everything I put it up against!  There's no question in my mind that if I did play a tourny, I'd be taking this deck with me to win that tourny!  Is this being overlooked? Am I missing something here? I'm finding great results with my current build, and I really want someone who has a deck out there, be it tier 1/2/3/whatever, that thinks it will stand up against madness to play me when you have time cuz I don't understand why this deck is beating 99% of the people I play on MWS...and that said, they're not all n00bs, many are skilled players!

WHERE ARE MADNESS' WEAKNESSES!?  Does it lie in sligh??  Does Bloodmoon+tormods crpyt+wasteland+strip mine = my death??  So far, I've not yet faced a sligh/gobo sligh that can deal with my fat creatures at these rapid speeds.  Not to mention that not many people play sligh anymore.

[Hyperion]

Madness' tougher matchups are combo (i.e. Dragon), Keeper (as opposed to other blue-based control decks), and Mask - especially before sideboarding. By its very nature Madness is slightly underpowered compared to the other top tier decks in Type I. It also suffers from inconsistency, extreme vulnerability to Mana Drain, and to timely nonbasic hate. You can read the primer written by myself and Rico Suave in the EVF for additional insight, which is still relevant even though the deck itself presented there is outdated come January.

I also think it is an underrated deck, but is certainly not a deck without major weaknesses, which you won't discover in your testing if you're playing against the likes of Goblin Sligh and Suicide Black, for instance.\n\n

[SummenSaugen]

Actually, mask gets a LOT better with people harping Spoils as a more efficient means of assembling the combo.  Survival Mask is a trade-off, since it loses a lot of speed but still can keep up with Madness barring an exceptional first hand (which won't happen nearly as often with the loss of LEDs #2-4)

[Vegeta2711]

Quote WHERE ARE MADNESS' WEAKNESSES!?  

Combo. Combo shall sadly wipe the bloody floor with you. Thankfully your matches are pretty decent otherwise.

And just to defend my deck slighty (omg how did I get dragged into this)

Quote Additionally, because you like to compare this to Stacker, what happens if Stacker's first threat is dealt with?

You sit behind your damage locks and use Welders to recur threats, barring that you use Mind's Eye to draw into some more threats.

My question: What's the optimal mana base for the deck here?

[Matt The Great]

Well, basically everyone starts or should start with 7 SoLoMox, 1 LED, 1 Forest, 4 Taiga, 4 Tropical Islands, and at least six other "duals" (Volcs or fetches or a combination). The variables are Riftstone Portal, Crop Rotation, ESG, the exact mix of non-Trop, non-Taiga colored sources, the second forest...Petal/Crypt...Strip Mine I guess (largely contingent on running Crop Rotation, I would think).

I've been running:

4 Taiga
4 Trop
2 Volc
5 fetch
1 Forest
8 Artifact Mana (Mox, Lotus, LED, Ring)

and it's been all right but not spectacular. I seem to draw Pearl and Jet a lot more often than the on-color Moxen, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me. I can definitely feel the attraction of Riftstone Portal, but that's mainly from the sideboard anyway, what with Ray of Revelation and Blood Moon being all the rage. Crop Rotation seems like a good idea so I'll have to work that in somewhere - probably over the fifth fetchland.

I've never felt the need for Crypt or Petal though. I've wanted to try an ESG build but I don't know where to even start, and it really doesn't seem that worthwhile. I would definitely play them if I was forced to go unpowered, though, as would I Petal and probably Crypt.\n\n

[xrobx]

What are peoples thoughts on time twister? I'm finding often that I don't bother using it, most of the time it helps my opponents moreso, UNLESS I'm already losing.  If I'm losing already, that means I'm mana screwed; which is hard to bounce back from anyways, and shouldn't happen often.

SO, is it worth keeping?  I enjoy wheel, cuz it doesnt wreck my angers, same thing with windfall, but twister ruins my graveyard, and its often not needed.