The Evolution of Sligh

[Rico Suave]

I don't know, maybe it is a metagame thing.  I just think PoP is scary, and Ankh is eh.

I'm also a big fan of Goblin Vandal in that slot.  Granted Vandal doesn't have the potential to deal as much damage, it does have the potential to completely screw over those artifact decks, as well as taking out those troublesome Kegs (protecting your other stuff instead of just having one card dodge it).

On a side-note, wouldn't Ankh suck against mono-black if they're destroying your mana?

[Ric_Flair]

@ FeverDog.  Not a big deal.  Like I said I am pretty thick skinned.  I did make mistakes and I appreciate you calling me on them.  This board should have a higher standard than the rest.

Ankh or not.  I see Ankh as being a good card only in certain situations.  It is good against Keeper, probably against Zoo, and maybe against TnT.  But isn't PoP good against those decks too? Plus against Sui, Void, Stacker, and Stompy Ankh is like "eh whatteva."  I guess it depends on the prevalance of fetchlands.  If it is just for colorless damage though I think that it is a weak option.  Scroll is a bit more consistent and Barbarian Rings are free.  The only issue with Scroll is Keg, but that is a big no duh.  It is like the fish nor fowl--not burn nor creature.  

Goblins or not.  I really think that dismissing Goblins is a mistake.  Here is the reason.  All of the strategies that damage Goblins damage red weenies.  Goblins can be much more explosive with tremendous firepower thanks to Grenade.  Playing App I got some seriously degenerate draws.  

First Turn Lackey
Second Turn Raging Goblin, Attack with Lackey and Raging Goblin.  Drop Piledriver
Third Turn Cast Raging Goblin, Attack with 2 Raging Goblins, Lackey, Piledriver.  Cast Grenade.

That is 16-17 damage by turn 3.  Now all the draws aren't that perfect, but there are still a ton good first turn plays.  I can't see the Goblin version being tremendously  less consistent than the red weenie version.  But it has the potentional to be much better, much much better. Now I know that everyone is going to hammer the Raging Goblin, but in conjunction with Piledriver he is ridiculous.  Insanity. Basically he is like a free Bloodlust.  In a fast deck with the need for synergy he is really good.  The only thing goblins lose is Shaman and Vandal can take his place.

[PsychoCid]

About Goblin Sligh, I don't particularly see that as a great argument in it's favor or defense.  Any decent Sligh build should be able to consistently 'fish a kill by turn 4, and 3 with a lucky draw.

As for Ankh vs. PoP, while it is true that where Ankh is at its most effective level, PoP is usually better, and that they both share a weakness to decks like Stompy and Suicide, Ankh will shine more against mono-blue.  I see this decision as a metagame call, as surely it is not so clear cut a decision as some of us would like to believe.

Either way, I'd be quicker to run Ankh than to allow opposing Wastelands to act as efficient threat removal.

[MolotDET]

Ok, I am back from the New England Weekend of Magic.  And while I didn't do very well at the YMG torny (in which I played sligh), I get get in quite a bit of testing with the deck over the course of the weekend.

someone who shall remain nameless (unless they want to claim this quote) said, "wow, Browbeat is good against TnT."

     Most of the games, win or lose, were within a few points of life.  I have to say that the build may be running sort of mana heavy, because there was a lot of excess, topdecked mana.  And I have a ruling on fork and that is "out!"  It must go.  I am planning on removing one Mountain and the fork for either: 2 Mox monkey or 2 PoP.  And than will work on the 2 SB cards.
     so back to the thread...

Quote Now, Ankh will oftentimes be drawn when all you really wanted was maybe even Shock.

@Rico - are you telling me that I should be running Shock?

 

Quote Like what?  I'd rather draw any other card in the deck over Ankh in the late-game

so lets see, you have burn and creatures and artifact damage in your deck.  what do you want to draw if:

1) you opponent has COP:red out?
2) or Story Circle?
3) Ivory Mask in play?
4) Abyss on board?
5) Moat?
6) Oath of Druids?
7) Ageis of Honor?

or how about a combination of those?

     Ankh is a pretty good draw late game.  Not the greatest, but is Fork?  Or PoP against a mono-colored deck.

Quote Anyway, enough of that.  Why run Ankh over other cards, especially Price of Progress

    The way I see it is, that Ankh is never dead against any deck.  While PoP is sometimes.  I just see Ankh as the better maindeck card when you're not sure what to expect.  Though with the revisions I'm making, 2 PoP might make the maindeck.

@MarkPharaoh -

Quote I have tested Ankh in Sligh and my results were that I drew it when I didn't want it.  Yes, PoP is bad against mono colored decks but it still has a use, as you keep it in hand for Cursed Scroll.  The only time I was really happy with Ankh when I went: Land, Ruby, Ankh, go.

First of all, every card sucks when you get it when you don't want it.  Ancestral recall sucks when you have no blue mana. does this make it bad?  Secondly, you are only happy with Ankh when you get the god hand?  Some people are soo picky.  By the way any card in hand is good with Cursed Scroll.

Quote In a competitive tournament you got Keeper and TnT left and right to where the PoP is just superior to Ankh.

    As far as my testing has shown, you are better off against Keeper and TnT presideboard.  With Ankh complemented by PoP and Browbeat, you do really well against TnT, I just need one or Two SB cards to push this over the top.  As far as keeper goes, they are going to get COP early against you after SB.  So the early Ankh will be putting up all of your damage that gets past the COP (because they will take two to be able to prevent three every turn) and the counter wall.

Quote there IS a late game for Sligh because of CoP:Red.

    While there is a late game for Sligh for this reason.  It isn't much of a game for the Sligh player is it?

back to @Rico

Quote Mishra's Factory is a guaranteed 2 damage per turn.  It also dodges Keg, and is a good blocker against aggro.

Goblin Vandal eats Powder Kegs as well as taking out huge artifacts.  It doesn't get around CoP: Red though.

Chimeric Idol is another example

Mishra's Factory is killed when keg goes off for 0.  And it makes the useless wasteland suddenly and all at once awesome.  Vandal gets eaten by Triskelion and Masticore as well as being shut down by COP or anything that can block it, or Moat or Abyss or Humility or...  Chimeric Idol cost 3 mana to cast so it is not good against anything with themanadrain.  Also it taps all your land to attack, so you have to cast before you attack, which you don't like to do in Sligh.

Quote Quote (Zherbus @ Dec. 06 2002,16:14)
TnT runs fetchlands.
R/G Beats/Zoo run fetchlands
Keeper runs fetchlands.
Some Stompy build run fetchlands
Mask runs fetchlands

If this were not so, I would not think of Ankhs as viable either. They are definetly worth consideration.

Yea, and Price of Progress is more devastating against all those decks aside from stompy, no matter when it's drawn.

as I found out this weekend, TnT has the ability to sac it's fetchies for basic lands eliminating most of the damage from PoP.  Also druid and of Zorb allow them to sack lands on a moments notice so PoP becomes somewhat less effective.  Most keeper builds also have the ability to sac their early fetchies for Islands as well as COP and Zuron orb tricks in responce to PoP.  Mask also gets along with little or no Blue so it is running mostly swamps.

Quote wouldn't Ankh suck against mono-black if they're destroying your mana?

lets see, against black you are in very good shape because none of their creatures can withstand your burn unless they have lots of mana out!!!  and they only have 1 strip and 4 sinks that can kill mountains.  So you are in good shape.  Void also need lots of lands in play to cast anything after Void hits.  So the answer to your question is NO, and thats only by looking at the surface of that match up.

@iceman - Lotus is bad because it is only really good for the first few turns. after that you would rather have drawn a mountain because it is a constant source of mana and has synergy with Fireblast.  Though you might be able to hardcast your blast with the Lotus.  presonal I always liked Lotus in Sligh but I understand why it is not excepted.
      That being said, the reasons I use it here are: for the first turn Ankh or two, because it helps fill the grave for Barbarian Rings, because it helps cast Wheel of Fortune, and it helps cast Browbeat after SB.  Most Sligh decks could only use it for one of those reasons.  And running it to help cast a 1of is not a good reason.

@Ric Flair

Quote against Sui, Void, Stacker, and Stompy Ankh is like "eh whatteva

for the reasons above Ankh is good against Sui and Void.  It's not that great against stompy but it replaces the damage you have to use on there creatures.  And it makes land grant deal 2 damage to get it's full effect.

Quote Scroll is a bit more consistent and Barbarian Rings are free.

I am running these as well.

Quote It is like the fish nor fowl--not burn nor creature

which is exactly why it's good. it doesn't get stopped by anything that stops those things.

which leaves Cidz0r,

Cid says,

Quote I see this decision as a metagame call, as surely it is not so clear cut a decision as some of us would like to believe

    I will not lead you to believe this is clear cut.  I am throwing this out as an option.  "the evolution of sligh" was in referance to the updating of the primer and not to my deck.  As I have said repeatedly, I am not saying that Ankh is for everyone everywhere (though I would rather have one in my opening draw than a PoP).  What ever works in Sligh where you are playing is what you should be playing.  That means if you don't see any fetchlands, don't use them.  Of course if you don't see any non standard lands don't use PoP.  The same goes for shaman and moxen, and if it works by you, run a shit ton of Goblins in your deck.  Play your meta game.
     For a random powered metagame I would suggest Ankhs.  Not rather than PoP, but in complement to.  Thats a lot of damage for having lands in your deck.

     I may be proved wrong in the future but I feel that Ankhs are better for Sligh than Fetchlands.  So, I presented a new version of the deck that countered the need and use of the fetchies.

     So the question here is not whether Ankh is better than PoP, I have said several times before, it is not.  I don't play them in my maindeck because I have this compulsive need to not have dead cards in my maindeck.  Though as I stated above, I may be working 2 into the maindeck.

     THE QUESTION: Are Ankh of Mishra better than Fetchlands in Sligh?  And Why or Why not?

[j_orlove]

Quote someone who shall remain nameless (unless they want to claim this quote) said, "wow, Browbeat is good against TnT."

I believe that was me, although I'm not sure those were my exact words. But, yes, Browbeat is an incredible SB card vs anything without counters. Test it--you will be impressed.

Unfortunately, the pair of browbeats wasn't enough to kill me--though if you'd drawn a PoP or more burn off the wheel, instead of those 5 land, that probably would have been game.

And it might have been poor shuffling, but I definitely did see you with too much land a lot. Cutting some sounds good. Or you could run fetchlands.  

[Ric_Flair]

First, the comments about Sui Black are mistaken.  First, the notion that Sui Black kills "only" with Strips Wastes and Sinks is completely erroneous.  Here is why:  Often times Sui black will be able to hymn early or will be able to "protect" a Hyppie early by killing crucial land.  These discard effects often stifle land drops on a consistent basis.  This in conjunction with the compliment of true land kill make this claim weaker than it first appears.  As for the susceptibility of Sui's creatures to burn, again I think that this is a bit misleading.  Flesh Reaver is chosen for the specific purpose of avoiding burn, and Shade is rarely boltable after turn 2 given the presence of land and D. Rits in the deck.  And Negator while not being the best creature against a burn deck is not strictly in bolt range.  Some creative saccing may save him.  This means that functionally only Hyppie is truly boltable on a consistent basis.  This speaks to nothing of the deck after sideboarding with Masticores/Phyrexian Warbeasts in the deck both of which are clearly not boltable.  As a result I think the power of the Ankh in this match up is clearly over exaggerated.  Also doesn't D. Rit. itself make the Ankh considerably less effective?

Bottom line is that Ankh has never really seemed to work for me in any format.  Only in the Blue Skies Ankh deck that Bob Maher made did the card seem viable.  As a damage dealer and land suppressor it seems less than effective, especially in light of the decks options (PoP more burn, Scrolls, etc.) and its purpose.  Maybe if the deck had more mana denial then the Ankh would be more effective.  But as Zherbus said, then the deck is Ponza.  Maybe a red weenie Sligh with Miners and Mox Monkeys could work.  I don't know.  I am definitely not sold on the card.  Stompy laughs at Ankh, not that this is a big issue.  Still it is a cheap deck that is easy to build and play so in the "real world" Vintage tournaments I can see it being an issue.


Question: Is Ankhn better than Fetchlands in Sligh?

Wow this is a really hard question.  On option gives you flexibility and deck thinning.  The other gives you a good card against some of the more powerful decks.  In the end though I think that fetchlands should win out, especially if you are playing with Scroll.  The deck thinning and Scroll effectively give Sligh a more powerful mid to late game.  

However, with the fetchlands it becomes much harder to effectively run Fireblast.  Each Blast can cost you up to "four" mountains.  That is, under normal conditions the fetchie is a mountain, so using one land to get another and then saccing that one seems like it could drain you resources quickly.  So in this case Ankh wins.  But Ankh is such a slow death compared to Slighs other options.  

Maybe this has reached the agreed to disagree stage.  I think the burn compliment is more important to sligh.  That is, how much and which ones.

[Radjammin]

Quote (Ric_Flair @ Dec. 09 2002,11:04)Question: Is Ankhn better than Fetchlands in Sligh?

Hell Ya!!!
When you just start thinking about the number of decks that you can screw over that want to play their new pretty fetchlands, it just gets fun.  You don't loose to Grow, Dragon, and Turbo land anymore.  You have another non-red damage source in your main deck.  

Fetchlands, more like "your dead, lands" these thing do 6 every time.  Your oppoenent tries to play 2, that 12 damage.
as someone pointed it out, it's 5 not 6, opos

Sligh been hurting as of recent, maybe this can help get it out of it's slump.  It's always good to change to the megagame, maybe it's time for ank to shine.  It might not work but it is at least a better idea then playing with fetchlands and giving an easy win back to Sui, Sligh's Bitch.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (MolotDET @ Dec. 08 2002,23:46)

Quote so lets see, you have burn and creatures and artifact damage in your deck.  what do you want to draw if:

1) you opponent has COP:red out?
2) or Story Circle?
3) Ivory Mask in play?
4) Abyss on board?
5) Moat?
6) Oath of Druids?
7) Ageis of Honor?

or how about a combination of those?

Ankh is a pretty good draw late game.  Not the greatest, but is Fork?  Or PoP against a mono-colored deck.

Um, if it's the late game which is what I was talking about, then what would Ankh do against any of those?

Fork at least does SOMETHING.  Don't forget your opponent can do stuff to, and you can Fork that.

Price of Progress sucks against mono-colored decks anyway.

Quote First of all, every card sucks when you get it when you don't want it.  Ancestral recall sucks when you have no blue mana. does this make it bad?  Secondly, you are only happy with Ankh when you get the god hand?  Some people are soo picky.  By the way any card in hand is good with Cursed Scroll.

The times where Ancestral Recall is dead are much MUCH fewer than when Ankh is dead.

Anyway, Ankh is not a bad choice by any means.  However, if you truly DON'T know what to expect from an environment, how do you know you'll be seeing tons of fetchlands which would make Ankh good?

[MolotDET]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Dec. 09 2002,15:59)

Quote (MolotDET @ Dec. 08 2002,23:46)

Quote so lets see, you have burn and creatures and artifact damage in your deck.  what do you want to draw if:

1) you opponent has COP:red out?
2) or Story Circle?
3) Ivory Mask in play?
4) Abyss on board?
5) Moat?
6) Oath of Druids?
7) Ageis of Honor?

or how about a combination of those?

Ankh is a pretty good draw late game.  Not the greatest, but is Fork?  Or PoP against a mono-colored deck.

Um, if it's the late game which is what I was talking about, then what would Ankh do against any of those?

Fork at least does SOMETHING.  Don't forget your opponent can do stuff to, and you can Fork that.

Price of Progress sucks against mono-colored decks anyway.

Quote First of all, every card sucks when you get it when you don't want it.  Ancestral recall sucks when you have no blue mana. does this make it bad?  Secondly, you are only happy with Ankh when you get the god hand?  Some people are soo picky.  By the way any card in hand is good with Cursed Scroll.

The times where Ancestral Recall is dead are much MUCH fewer than when Ankh is dead.

Anyway, Ankh is not a bad choice by any means.  However, if you truly DON'T know what to expect from an environment, how do you know you'll be seeing tons of fetchlands which would make Ankh good?

    First of all Ankh gets around all of those commonly played cards.  Half of the TnT builds play no scorceries or instants and nothing that is targeted.  This is so that, they make certain cards in control decks dead against them.  Which means that fork is only good to copy your cards.  Anyway I would rather have pulled a card that does something by itself.
     Your point about Ancestral was already made in my scarcastic statement - or - it was a retorical question at best.
     The thing about random metagames is that it will be really good against decks with fetchlands and it should put up 2 to 6 damage against a deck playing regular lands.  In sligh thats a big deal since you are usually only looking for a few more points of damage.

Quote First, the comments about Sui Black are mistaken.  First, the notion that Sui Black kills "only" with Strips Wastes and Sinks is completely erroneous.  Here is why:  Often times Sui black will be able to hymn early or will be able to "protect" a Hyppie early by killing crucial land.  These discard effects often stifle land drops on a consistent basis.  This in conjunction with the compliment of true land kill make this claim weaker than it first appears.  As for the susceptibility of Sui's creatures to burn, again I think that this is a bit misleading.  Flesh Reaver is chosen for the specific purpose of avoiding burn, and Shade is rarely boltable after turn 2 given the presence of land and D. Rits in the deck.  And Negator while not being the best creature against a burn deck is not strictly in bolt range.  Some creative saccing may save him.  This means that functionally only Hyppie is truly boltable on a consistent basis.  This speaks to nothing of the deck after sideboarding with Masticores/Phyrexian Warbeasts in the deck both of which are clearly not boltable.  As a result I think the power of the Ankh in this match up is clearly over exaggerated.  Also doesn't D. Rit. itself make the Ankh considerably less effective?

     First of all for those who already know this (which should be everyone other than Ric),

                    Sui is a good match-up for Sligh!!!!!

for everyone else, skip down to the doted line.  For Ric...

     Sui uses it's first turn ritual in only one of these ways.  The way you make it seem they can cast hymn, sinkhole, wastes (which are no good against Sligh!) and a creature all within the first few turns.
     While with the optimum draw and topdecks, this might be true, how often does anyone get the optimum draw?

     The creatures in Sui all have a weakness to burn.

     If Negator is Lightning Bolted it causes them to sack thee permanents.  So a negator is not a good play until they have several permanents in play.
     Fleshreaver actually does your job for you and so should be ignored completely.
     Hippy is completely boltable.
     Shade causes them to hold back mana to keep it alive.  So it is niether attacking at maximum efficency nor are they casting spells as quickly as they could.
    Phyrexian war beast can be easily delt with by a combonation of two sources of damage or just fireblast.  And it's death knell helps out your game.
     Masticore is the best of their creatures, but it keeps their cards in hand low.  It is harder to deal with but Sligh does run Incinerate! and they need to keep land untapped to keep it alive as well.

     Discard is only good against Sligh for the first few turns because after that you should be in topdeck mode and than Hymns, Duress, and mind twist are dead.  Also Duress cannot take land out of your hand.
     Dark ritual does make it easier to get around Ankh but they still need land in play to use it.  And sui wants a bit of land in play.

-------------------------------------------------
Is Ankh better than Fetchlands in Sligh?

Quote In the end though I think that fetchlands should win out, especially if you are playing with Scroll

why do you think this, when Fetchlands have bad synergy with scroll?  They get you lands no sooner than you would have drawn them and they lower your chance of drawing into land.  They lower your land count, so that scrolling efficiently and still casting the spell you draw is less likely.

Quote Ankh is such a slow death compared to Slighs other options

 Ankh is not death, it is 2 to 6 extra damage.  Though sometimes it is a lot more.

Quote with the fetchlands it becomes much harder to effectively run Fireblast

if you are runniug Fetchlands you have given up on Fireblast.  Which might not be a bad Idea, but seeing as how sometimes you need to deal 4 damage to your opponent or a creature real fast, I still begrudgingly use it.

Quote I think the burn compliment is more important to sligh

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lighning
4 Incinerate
1 Black Vise
2 to 6 cards (which should be Fireblast or PoP, might even mention Flame Rift here but I think it is not good enough personally)

other than that...

 there is no conflict!

Oh and Radjammin - thats 5 damage or 10 for 2.

[dandan]

I can see how Ankh is a viable option (check past Sligh threads, I've suggested it a number of times) but I am unsure when you consider it is best to cast it. Turns 1 and 2 stop you getting dorks into play quickly and later means it isn't as effective.

Regarding my suggestion of Mishras (in controllish Sligh), I would not consider my opponent stripping/wasting my Mishras as terrible when one of my primary strategies is to restrict their mana. My Mishras just became strips 6-9. 'Allowing' your opponent to use a strip on your Mishra's Factories also has very good synergy with Vise and Ankh.

Regarding the goblin Sligh comments, I doubt if an optimal goblin Sligh has been developed that fully abuses Lackey, Rechless Charge and possibly Piledriver. I certainly haven't seen a solid decklist here at TMD. That extra turn of speed may well be crucial. Personally I dislike all out aggro Sligh so I'll leave it to others to test but please don't dismiss goblin Sligh lightly as I think it is probably the fastest Sligh around. Frankly at present there are a lot of decks that beat Sligh all too easily unless they stumble. I believe there are viable versions of Sligh in control, aggro (Kaplan Sligh) and combo (goblin Sligh).

Sligh Vs. Suicide
There are versions of Suicide that beat Sligh game 1. Most players don't run those versions, they run anti-control Suicide or mixed field Suicide versions. This means fewer Reavers, Warbeasts and Masticores. Most Sligh decks beat most Suicide decks game 1. The pump-insects have narrowed the gap. Suicide always has a grim sideboard for Sligh, Sligh usually has nothing (even I can't fit my beloved Guerrilla Tactics in the SB anymore). I still fancy Sligh to squeeze out one of the next two games by having 'that hand' or the opponent stumbling. Sligh has the edge over Suicide but not by much.\n\n

[Ric_Flair]

I think that the issue here is that we are both speaking theoretically.  In a perfect fully powered metagame the decks that are good and the deck builds are different than they are in the real world.  I have yet to sit down at a tournament where people know how to play decks like Keeper and have all the cards to do so.  Furthermore, TnT, because of the price tag, has not even been built where I am playing.  So this debate is very narrowly tailored to games in the virtual world or a rare instance in which everyone has access to power and knowledge of how to use them.  

As for the comments about Sligh and Suicide I think you are misreading or just adding things that I never said.  I never said that Duress is good in the match up.  Nor did I say that discard is good in the late game.  Both of these comments are things you provided in your criticism of me.  Neither are points I made.  Simply put, yet again, the combination of Sinkhole, D. Rit. and early discard aka first turn Hyppie with no response or first and/or second turn Hymn can seriously thwart any land development.  When playing the few games that I have played in the real world with this deck, the combination of these cards makes it very difficult to develop a mana curve or even a two or three land base.  Online, the results are more clear: the mana development is even more difficult.  Add to it the Null Rod factor which hurts non land mana development, and I think my comments regarding land development are even more true.  

I will concede that a first game match up of Sligh versus Suicide is probably in Sligh's favor.  However after sideboarding, especially with Legend's sideboard, I think the match is very even.  Masticore really rocks.  As does Warbeast.  Your belief that doubling up on th burn to remove these creatures is a good idea is simply wrong.  If I am preventing you from attacking and killing your creatures (with Masticore) or simply preventing you from attack (with Warbeast) AND you have to spend two or even three cards to kill one of mine I am liking that, especially if it is burn that would otherwise go to me.  Now granted the Warbeast is usually even card advantage, but if you use Fireblast on either guy I am loving it, especially a regenerating Masticore.  The fact that you have to kill Masticore and you can only do it with Incinerate bodes well for me.  Additionally, the Contagion and/or Spinning Darkness work wonders against Sligh.  So the second and third game are closer than you make them out to be, as a subsequent post pointed out.  Finally, you have vastly underrated the Shade.  There are many, many times in which this guy just wins.  Draw him in the late game, attack next turn for 14 or something ridiculous like that.  And if burn is your only removal I think Shade is even better.

The synergy between fetchlands and Cursed Scroll is simple.  In the late game, where Sligh usually stinks at, the two cards make each draw doubly effecient.  Instead of drawing a useless land you are more likely to draw a burn spell or a creature spell.  This card can then be Scrolled and then cast.  The combination of the fetchies and the Scroll can make your deck far more effecient in the late game, a place where Sligh has been lacking since its inception.  

The loss of Fireblast because of the fetchlands can be augmented by the use of Flame Rift.  Although not as flexible as Fireblast it is a bit easier to cast and works better with the fetchlands.  The issue becomes one of philosophy: Does Sligh need a late game?  If not then don't use the fetchlands and go all out for Fireblast.  In the end, I think this philosophy may run right back into the problems Sligh faced when TnT was discovered:  If it can't outrace a deck what happens?

In the end, Ankh is probably a good enough card to make the cut in a Sligh deck, but is that Sligh deck that includes them the optimum build?  I don't know, but I do know that Ext. decks are goldfishing by turn 4 without Fireblast, Vise, and Ankh and they run fetchlands.  Also that metagame is a bit faster than Vintage, what with Mono Black Reanimator and Angry Ghoul, and few very viable control decks.  Maybe it is time to look elsewhere for inspiration and innovation.  I am well aware that this idea is not looked upon favorably here, but the results seem to speak for themselves, at least in this one small area (evaluating Sligh's performance against the field).  

Maybe this post was a bit too surly.  If so I apologize.  I just seem to be getting called out all the time and no one is actually reading or thinking about what I said.  They chastise me and "show" me how wrong I am by using the "conventional" wisdom of Vintage.  Now, it is true that I don't know as much as anyone else here, but many of my comments have been criticized with very little accuracy.  Also I am trying to play the role of the devil's advocate.  I do think that Anhk is a good idea.  It is definitely an interesting development for a deck that is in desparate need of a new approach.  However, I just don't think it has what it takes to make the grade in a fully powered environment.  In a real world environment it is even worse.  In the end hopefully the exchange of different ideas will allow the deck to be built without the hinderance of old and tired assumptions.

[bebe]

Goblin Sligh is definately viable. Here is a deck that went 4-2 at a recent powered tournament in Canada.

Goblin Sligh

Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Barbarian Ring
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
7 Mountain
Mox Ruby

4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Cadet

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Reckless Charge
4 Goblin Grenade
Wheel of Fortune


SB:
4 Fametongue Kavu
4 ReB
4 Tornod's Crypt
3 Anarchy
  
Would I play this steaming pile ( a pun )? Probably not. But that does not detract from its record. It beat two blue control decks, a sui and a pernicious deed funk type deck and lost to Gro (with Oath side) and TnT. I think if he haded sided Mogg Salvage or Pillage instead of Flametongues he would have done better but he thought aggro would be more popular. His sideboard is somewhat strange.

It just illustrates the raw power and speed of these versions. This deck is very aggressive with almost no control elements, doing its best to just plow you over.

The Ankh deck plays an entirely different type of game. It is much more aggro-control. I imagine your metagame dictates the choice you make.

[Dante]

Quote (Ric_Flair @ Dec. 10 2002,09:22)I think that the issue here is that we are both speaking theoretically.  In a perfect fully powered metagame the decks that are good and the deck builds are different than they are in the real world.  I have yet to sit down at a tournament where people know how to play decks like Keeper and have all the cards to do so.  Furthermore, TnT, because of the price tag, has not even been built where I am playing.  So this debate is very narrowly tailored to games in the virtual world or a rare instance in which everyone has access to power and knowledge of how to use them.  

I think a LOT of people are underestimating the amount of powered environments.  I see a lot of posts like "well that's fine online, but IRL no one around me plays fully powered XXXX".  I think people who play in totally non-powered environments need to realized that most environments have power.  Not everyone has all the power, but enough people have it that the top 4 or 8 are usually optimally built decks (i.e. no Keeper decks missing 2 moxes and an ancestral).  For a lot of people, their environment is powered (enough) and once you reach the top 4/8, you will see optimal decklists.

Dante

[MolotDET]

@dandan - Ankh is best when cast early, turn one or two are optimal.  It does slow your creature development, which is the biggest problem with it  But, It deversifies your threats so they are not able to be delt with in one fell swoop.  Oft times your creatures will become impotent, this is where Ankh shines.
     Mishra's Factories a real good.  If I could find room in the deck for them I would most certanly be using them.  The odd problem would be that I would increase my manabase to include them and I am noticing that it needs to be cut back.  Though your point about the synergy is completely true, don't think it was lost on me.  It just that making dead cards useful makes tha hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
     I have not dismissed Goblin Sligh.  I have said that a Goblin Sligh deck may be just as viable as mine.  But not in my meta.  Or at least I have not seen a list that is.
     On Sui - Perhaps this is where Ric thinks my comments on Sui are wrong.  The metagame I play in is fully powered, so the black decks I play against are scued to the anti-control end of the spetrum.  True their sideboards are full of aggro hate but you can usually squeeze out one of the last two games.  Oh and try Browbeat against Black it's awesome.
     As always your comments are insightful.

bebe - Goblin Sligh is (as I have said) not to be counted out.  I just think that these decks tend to roll over to Keeper, which should make up a good percentage of any powered field.  The deck you posted does look impresive though.  I would think it has no shot after turn 5 or 6 and goes belly up to a resolved Moat (which I know isn't played much anymore) or COP:red.  And Incinerate over Chain Lightning?  But interesting none the less.

@Dante - TESTIFY.

Ric,

     Though you may be speaking theoretically, I am not.  I have piloted this deck in a few tornies and have done quite a lot of testing IRL as well as online.  The places that I play are fully powered T1 metagames and not T1.5 or 1.x.  So, while you,  "have yet to sit down at a tournament where people know how to play decks like Keeper and have all the cards to do so," and while "TnT, because of the price tag, has not even been built where I am playing," this is not true of me.  This debate is not, "narrowly tailored to games in the virtual world or a rare instance in which everyone has access to power and knowledge of how to use them."
     On my side I have played against these decks, piloted by people who have been playing them for some time.  Perhaps they are not the best players but they have their time in and know what they are doing.

Quote Simply put, yet again, the combination of Sinkhole, D. Rit. and early discard aka first turn Hyppie with no response or first and/or second turn Hymn can seriously thwart any land development.

again you are putting forth an almost perfect draw as your example.  Well almost perfect, Ritualing out a creature on first turn is not good against Sligh.  But not only is that draw near optimum for the Sui player but, the Sligh Player has no burn in his draw?  What world do you live in?

Quote attack next turn for 14 or something ridiculous like that.  And if burn is your only removal I think Shade is even better

Attacking even for 7 would be pushing it. I am playing Ankhs you know.  What kind of insaine late game are you talking about here?  Once again, using all your mana to pump Shade insures it's death on my turn.  

Quote I never said that Duress is good in the match up.  Nor did I say that discard is good in the late game

I did not say that you said this but I was implying that Duress is a mostly dead Card after turn one, and the dicard complement is almost completely wasted after Sligh gets into topdeck mode.

Quote you have to spend two or even three cards to kill one of mine

Quote This card can then be Scrolled and then cast

These two quote seem to contradict eachother.  Perhaps you were not thinking of Scroll when you wrote the first?

Quote The loss of Fireblast because of the fetchlands can be augmented by the use of Flame Rift.

So what you are saying, is that by taking the damage from the fetchlands you should increase the damage you do to yourself by Playing Flame Rift?  Of course non targetable damage that can't hit creatures is going to help you so much against the problem aggro decks we are talking about.  Yes, you should absofuckinglutely play fetchies and Flame Rift against a deck that can put out 1 or 2 hastened Trikes every turn...  

Quote I do know that Ext. decks are goldfishing by turn 4 without Fireblast, Vise, and Ankh and they run fetchlands.  Also that metagame is a bit faster than Vintage, what with Mono Black Reanimator and Angry Ghoul, and few very viable control decks

Extended is a faster enviroment than T1?  I didn't know!  Someone else should have told me about this...  And no control decks, huh?  This almost explaines everything you have said thus far.  

Quote I just seem to be getting called out all the time and no one is actually reading or thinking about what I said.

I absolutely read and concider every reply to every one of my threads.  Perhaps, and don't take this to harshly because it is not intended that way, you should gain more  experience with this format before you think, that what you have experienced thus far is what goes on anywhere else.

Quote I just don't think it has what it takes to make the grade in a fully powered environment.  In a real world environment it is even worse (speaking of ankh)

Pardon my abruptness but, given what you have said above, how would you know?

Quote In the end hopefully the exchange of different ideas will allow the deck to be built without the hinderance of old and tired assumptions

With what you are saying and the topic you are posting on, you are as guilty of this as anyone you are accusing.

Quote When playing the few games that I have played in the real world with this deck

Perhaps you should have stopped your comments as soon as you typed this, being as you continually maintain that you have no experience playing in a real life fully powered meta.

I would like to see your decklist for Sligh.  You can post it here or in the vintage mill, or even email it to me at my link below, if you don't want anyone to rip it apart in the forums.

One last note about playing online.  Even though you are playing against someone running Darren or Steve's complete Paragon Keeper list, does not mean you are playing against Darren or Steve.  Apply this to any deck you have played against online.  And if you have played against them online, assume they are better IRL.

[Dante]

Quote (MolotDET @ Dec. 11 2002,02:27)@Dante - TESTIFY.

One last note about playing online.  Even though you are playing against someone running Darren or Steve's complete Paragon Keeper list, does not mean you are playing against Darren or Steve.  Apply this to any deck you have played against online.  And if you have played against them online, assume they are better IRL.

This is quite true - I've seen a ton of players try out keeper and fail when they should start with other control decks first as they are more straightforward to play.  When we talk about a deck doing well, we are GENERALLY assuming that the player knows how to play it well (i.e. Keeper players have been playing Keeper since Mirror Universe was good, etc..)

Dante

[Ric_Flair]

One last post before I quietly sit down and read wisdom on this here forum, as per a request:

1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus
1 Black Vise
1 Strip Mine
1 Wheel of Forture
1 Fork
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Cadets
4 Raging Goblin (they aren't as janky with the PD in the deck)
4 Jackal Pup
4 Goblin Grenade
3 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
2 Goblin Vandal
4 Wastelands
13 Mountains

SB
4 REB
3 Pyroblasts
2 Dwarven Blastminer (colorless damage in a pinch, makes him slightly better)
4 Pyrokenesis
2 Shattering Pulse

BTW I am armed with a Misdirection just in case of additional ad hominem attacks.  Sorry for tainting the debate with my newbieness.

[Dante]

Ric - I was originally thinking "hmm, not that bad a version of sligh" - until I didn't see any Cursed scrolls maindeck (or side).  Or any Price of Progress - unless you play in the scrubiest of scrubiest metagames where everyone only has basic lands, I don't how you can't side these.  Also, COP Red rapes you - no scrolls, no flaring pain/anarchy, no colorless damage (morphed blastminers do NOT count) - how are you going to beat cop red?

Dante

[dandan]

IMHO I think Ric has it right in not using Cursed Scrolls in that aggro Sligh. If you plan on winning by turn 4, Cursed Scoll becomes 4 : do 2 colourless damage. Not great. I would question the use of 5 strips in such an aggro deck, kind of like Stompy, you plan to damage the opponent and forgo disruption for speed. Wastes slow your ability to spew out damage and seriously reduce your ability to Bolt, Fork, Fireblast on turn 3 (or Raging Goblin, Bolt, Fork, Fireblast on turn 4). I guess they may be an attempt to get around COP Red as such a deck is never going to resolve an Anarchy, hence no Anarchy in the side.

Of course in a more controlling version you MUST have Scrolls and 5 strips.

This is why I constantly mention the diversification of Sligh, Control Sligh MUST have Scrolls, Lackey Sligh probably shouldn't have them.

[Ric_Flair]

Flaring Pain is a perfect addition to the sideboard. *Removes some Pyrokinesis from sleeved SB*  As far as the Scrolls are concerned they just seem excessive and don't fit the theme of the deck.  This is almost Goblin Combo and not Sligh.  If its not a Goblin or burn I think there is little room for it in the deck.  Granted this deck may be too narrowly focused, but I just wanted to make a deck that won FAST.  It is clearly not a control Sligh or red weenie Sligh deck.  Is it the BEST version of Sligh?  I don't know, but it is fast and consistent and PD gets around an early Superman.  I will try out the Reckless Charges though.  I am just wary of putting a not creature non burn spell.  As for PoP's I am thinking of swapping out the Incinerates for them.  It is just that Incinerate has proven to be more consistent.  As for the 7 anti blue cards here in Boston there is a HEAVY bias towards control.  And there is that damn 32 counters and 4 Morphling guys that I invariably seem to get paired against in the first round.  Plus sometimes an errant Ancestral ends the game before it can even get started.  But I am the first to admit the metagame is skewed.  After all Boston brought you the inbred metagame of PT Houston.  Your all welcome for that.  Bleh.

[Ric_Flair]

Why is Hand to Hand not used to get around COP: Red?  With so little enchantment destruction used in Keeper and TnT and none available in Sui Black or Void, the 3 mana enchantment will allow all your creatures to attack without the ability to hide behind COPs.  Just a thought.

[bebe]

Some differences between Boston's and Toronto's I see. I also feel Scrolls are not needed in Goblin Sligh and am iffy on the Fork. We Chargs a lot here. We find the card is great in pure aggro versions - which this essentially is.
On a sidenote, afew players have been trying Mogg Flunkies
in the  Pup spot since Charges are used... I'm not sure at all about that but they claim they work fine.
Also, FTKs have been very good in the side.
But I don't want to usurp the original premise of adding Ankhs which in a more aggro-control build is to my mind a very valid pick.

[Matt The Great]

Hand to Hand is not used to combat CoP: Red because the CoPs no longer need to be activated during the combat phase. Hence, Hand to Hand is nigh-worthless.

[MolotDET]

It's been a few days and I really am pressed for time right now but I wanted to get my deck update posted.  A few people have asked me for my changes so I wanted to oblige.

So without any ado at all...

D.E.Sligh version 2.0

   Mana
1 Mox Ruby
11 Mountain
3 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
   Dorks
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
   Red Damage
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
   Colorless
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Black Vice
4 Ankh of Mishra
   Utility
1 Wheel of Fortune

Changes to the maindeck:
     -4 Goblin Cadet +4 Gorilla Shaman, Because though the cadets are good against Keeper, they suck against anything else unless you have lots and lots of creatures, which this deck doesn't.  Also after SB the Cadets were always removed, So it makes the MD better against Aggro.
     -1 Mountain -1 Fork/ +2 PoP, The Mountain goes because of mana Flooding, and may become 10 Mountains if I remove the Fireblasts (which doesn't seem Likely)  Fork goes because I wanted two PoP maindeck and it is the least useful card in the deck unless you are playing with it in your Sleeve!  

I am working on two Sideboard options right now.  I like sideboard1 better than sideboard2, But it depends where you are going to play.  If you are going to a random or Balanced metagame use #1.  If you are playing somewhere that Keeper and Phidd make-up half or more of the meta I would say #2 is better.

     SideBoard1
3 Browbeat - against all decks without counters
2 Price of Progress - Non-basic hate
4 Scald - MonoU, Keeper, Dragon and Turboland
3 Tormod's Crypt - Keeper, Dragon, MonoB and TnT
3 Overload - Mask, TnT, Ducktape

     Sideboard2
3 Browbeat
2 Price of Progress
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pryoblast
3 Tormod's Crypt

     Though I haven't said this before I side out Jackal Pups.  So when the creatures hate comes in there are no creatures to hit with it.  So cards that can come out.

4 Jackal Pups (Always come out)
4 Monkeys (when not useful)
2 Fireblast (When PoP 3 and 4 or anything else is better)
2 PoP (when they are useless)
1 Mountain (when Fireblasts are removed)
4 Cursed Scroll (when opponent play Null Rods)
1 to 4 Incinerate (for what ever is more useful)
1 to 4 Chain Lightning (for whatever is more useful, dont remove these and Incinerate)\n\n

[MolotDET]

Well I have a few more minutes today so...

     As far as Ric's deck goes, I gave him the following advice.
     I might think about relentless charge, because of it's flashback ability.  Lotus seems to be a wasted card maindeck because you have almost nothing that requires that much mana.  Fork is too reactionary for that sort of a deck and I would think you would be better served by something more aggro, ie either burn or a creature.  Only 2 fireblasts!

     As far as your SB I would have to know more about your meta, but if you don't see many Blue decks that is way alot of Blasts.

     I think the build is a very good Goblin Sligh.  The SideBoard though seems to make the deck far too reactionary and I'm not sure how this would sit in a pure aggro deck.

     Other than those concerns, I would say that the deck looks like it has a few weeknesses.
     How do you get around COP:red other than overloading it?  Against hard control like Keeper and even moreso against Parfait, this will be a problem.  Once they are sitting pretty with it in play Flaring Pain becomes the only must counter you have.  Which makes their control strategy even more powerful.  With 2 SB Blastminers as the only colorless damage in the deck, COP will be a real problem here.
     Also Moat seems like it would be a huge problem.  Not that it gets out early very often, but once it resolves it kills more than half your deck.
     Big Aggro is going to be a real problem for this deck as well.  TnT and Mask oppress Sligh decks that have a control theme, imagine what they would do to this.  Two Shattering Pulse in the SB will not be enough to get you past these decks even if you are playing the control version.  Shattering Pulse is a good card but playing so little mana, the buy back is quite hard to afford and it is next to impossible to use and still maintain your pace.

     But once again if you don't see many or any of these decks, than whatever wins where you play is perfect.

@dandan and Dante - Cursed Scroll would be bad in this deck.  While they might help when your in top deck, this deck should just run purely as aggro and slowing down for the Scroll might not be advised.
     The wastes/Strips are the only thing that will keep a control player from being able to COP all your damage once it hits.  Though Factories might be a good alternative to the wastes.
     Also if your meta is so heavy Blue I might think of something like Scald...

-------------------------------

I would now like to take you back to the "Ankh of Mishra in Sligh" thread...

    SideBoard1
3 Browbeat - against all decks without counters
2 Price of Progress - Non-basic hate
4 Scald - MonoU, Keeper, Dragon and Turboland
3 Tormod's Crypt - Keeper, Dragon, MonoB and TnT
3 Overload - Mask, TnT, Ducktape, MonoU

    Sideboard2
3 Browbeat
2 Price of Progress
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pryoblast
3 Tormod's Crypt

     Of these two SideBaords I am really liking #1.  it has proved to be quite useful in testing against the Big aggro decks.  Against control it ups the number of must counters to more than the number of counters in a Keeper deck, and gets you even to the amount of counters in monoU/Ur.
     You could substitute for REB for the Scald in SB1 but I think the Scalds are great.\n\n

[dandan]

Quote (dandan @ Dec. 12 2002,12:07)IMHO I think Ric has it right in not using Cursed Scrolls in that aggro Sligh. If you plan on winning by turn 4, Cursed Scoll becomes 4 : do 2 colourless damage. Not great. I would question the use of 5 strips in such an aggro deck, kind of like Stompy, you plan to damage the opponent and forgo disruption for speed. Wastes slow your ability to spew out damage and seriously reduce your ability to Bolt, Fork, Fireblast on turn 3 (or Raging Goblin, Bolt, Fork, Fireblast on turn 4). I guess they may be an attempt to get around COP Red as such a deck is never going to resolve an Anarchy, hence no Anarchy in the side.

Of course in a more controlling version you MUST have Scrolls and 5 strips.

This is why I constantly mention the diversification of Sligh, Control Sligh MUST have Scrolls, Lackey Sligh probably shouldn't have them.

MolotDET

I find your comments strange in light of what I said. Did you read my comments right? (referring to you pointing the 'Cursed Scrolls are bad in this deck' argument at me, after I clearly said exactly that in the above post)\n\n

[MolotDET]

DanDan - not exactly sure what you are refering to here. could you be a little more clear on this dissagreement?