Trix Discussion

[Legend]

Things seem to be very quiet in the Extreme Vintage Forum right now, so this is a good time for a new topic. I think the Turbo Lich primer has been sitting as the most recently replied to post for quite awhile.

I'm now going to post a Trix deck that I have collaborated on with FeverDog in the last couple of days. We think it is a pretty good deck. Having tested the deck out a bit, I can say that it runs very smoothly. I am not going to throw out match win percentages or garbage like that, because I hate that sort of stuff. I don't like it when someone builds a deck and then claims that it goes 90% versus Keeper, 90% against Mask, 87% against TNT, but only 11% against Mono-Green Control. What I can tell you is that I like this deck, and it is a solid deck.

I remember back in the day on BD when I posted a Trix deck with the Intuition/AK engine. A certain moderator who was running BD at the time lashed out at the deck, even enlisting Kai Budde to belittle the concept of playing Trix as a Mono-Blue/Intuition/AK deck in Type I. Some of you may remember this. Well they were wrong. I believe at the time, the favored version of Trix was in fact that terrible pile of restricted cards randomly sporting a few copies of the combo. Even at the time, I did not like that version. I felt that the best way to go about building the deck was to go Mono-Blue, with more focus and redundancy. That is why I preferred to adapt the deck straight from the Extended Intuition/AK versions.

I've seen a few Mono-Blue versions here and there on the manadrain boards. I've been a proponent of Trix for a very long time. It is the only combo deck that I have ever taken an interest in. I'm no combo player, in fact I dislike combo very much, but I have always liked this deck for whatever reason, and began trying out a version a few days ago out of the blue. I then got to working on it with FeverDog, and I feel that we have produced a very sound version of Trix. Here it is:



4 Illusions of Grandeur
4 Donate
1 Morphling

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

4 Intuition
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Cunning Wish

4 Sapphire Medallion
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
17 Island

SB:

1 Capsize
1 Mana Short
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
3 Morphling
4 Back to Basics



Now, some explanations.

The first thing that might jump out at you is the use of Sapphire Medallions. Many people would prefer to use extra Moxes in those slots. Playing the deck has convinced us otherwise. The Medallions are spectacular. They allow this deck to simply spit out the entire combo in one huge turn if need be. This is the key difference between Medallions and extra Moxes: the potential for explosive turns. More artifact mana will simply speed up ONE spell at a time on any given turn. Medallions cheapen multiple spells at once. This means that it is easier to win counter wars and easier to find the combo and put it into play, because it is very likely that you will be able to make your turns more productive than those of your opponent once a Medallion is in play. With two in play, this deck can become quite insane.

I have found numerous examples of why the Medallions set this version apart from those that do no include Medallion over the course of my playing this deck in the last couple of days.

For example, let's say that I am holding a Donate in hand, with nothing else. I am facing down lethal damage next turn. There are two Medallions in play, and I have four Islands. I topdeck Intuition, get an Illusions, and Donate it, all in one turn. Scenarios such as this have not been uncommon so far in my playing of this deck. If you are looking for a parallel, think Helm of Awakening in Academy. The purpose of Sapphire Medallion is similar here.

Another interesting aspect of this deck is the combo itself. I have noticed that the mistake of playing fewer than four copies each of both Illusions and Donate has been made in numerous Donate lists. I don't know why anybody would make a combo deck more fragile than it needs to be by playing any less than four of the combo pieces. Rarely is drawing extras a problem, if ever.

To me, the best reason why playing four copies of each is the wise choice is the presence of Intuition. It is very important to be able to Intuition for a missing combo piece if one has already been knocked out of your hand our countered. If you were only playing three Donates for example, you would not be able to do this, since of course only two would be left in your library. What is the worst that will happen? You will have an extra combo piece in your hand, and can simply toss it to a Force of Will or Misdirection. I have had NO problems whatsoever running four of each. This is especially true of Illusions. I have found that playing a second Illusions after another has already been Donated will often provide the margin of survival that I need. While my opponent struggles to pay the upkeep in order to keep attacking me, that second twenty point life boost can prove critical, even if I cannot Donate the second one. Merely paying the upkeep for a couple of turns may very well allow me to live until my opponent can no longer pay the upkeep.

The maindeck Morphling is just there in case an opponent has somehow gained a little life, and a slight finishing sucker punch is needed. It can also just randomly win a game on its own on occasion. We both like the surprise value of a Game 1 Morphling. You cannot expect to draw it all the time of course, but it is a nice little element to have in the maindeck should the combo not get the job done for some reason.

We could perhaps include a second Cunning Wish, perhaps at the expense of one Intuition, but since we can just Merchant Scroll for it, we have one for now. There is a good chance that another one will be added if it proves necessary. There are several good targets for the Wish. Capsize is just a general purpose spell to get rid of any obstacles to the combo, such a surprise Elvish Lyrist or something along those lines. The Hurkyl's Recall can be nice againt Mask or TNT. FeverDog told me that MolotDET has used this card in the past to good effect. We happen to think that it will prove to be effective as well. The Mana Short will allow you to initiate a counterwar at the end of your control opponent's turn to force the combo through. The Stroke of Genius and Fact or Fiction are just generally useful, and can come in along with the transformational aspects of the sideboard for the second and third games.

We have included three Morphlings in the sideboard to give us the possibility of transforming into a Legend Blue-style Morphling rush deck for the back two games when faced with Keeper, for example. They will obviously be joined by the Back to Basics and the additional Misdirections. I am not entirely thrilled with the mana situation in support of going control, and changes may need to be made. But for now we are both satisfied enough that this deck can support the Morphling strategy, despite the slightly low overall mana count, especially given this deck's card drawing capabilities. The Sapphire Medallions will actually only further this Morphling plan. Mana Crypt would of course have to be sided out in this situation. Since I have brought up Mana Crypt, I will just say that it has proven to be an excellent addition, and I have had no problems with its drawbacks.

One issue that we tossed around was adding another color. I would never say that this is not a possibility, but it seemed as if monochrome would lend the greatest amount of consistency. Being able to dodge Wastelands is an important element, and we did not think that adding another color would add all that much. I used to like a splash of Red, as seen during the 2001-2002 Extended season. But Fire/Ice is not as good as it used to be. Fire/Ice is a solid Type I card, but I am not sure that I would want to go out of the way for it by adding red, because most decks that Fire/Ice would be good against are probably already good matchups for this deck. Red Elemental Blast would be nice, but again, given the assortment of anti-control options in blue, I am not sure that Blast would warrant a splash of red either.

Finally, you may notice that our sideboard has been designed almost completely with control in mind. We have pretty much put aggro on the pay no mind list. This deck should be able to handle most aggro decks without much, if any sideboarding, since the combo is pretty much the same as being pre-sideboarded against aggro. This is not to dismiss the powerful aggro decks of Type I, because there are currently some outstanding aggro decks. There are no guarantees, of course. However, on the whole, Trix is extremely strong against aggro. Better to focus on the control matchups, which are of course quite difficult.

Discuss.\n\n

[Dave Kaplan]

I'm sure you've considered the addition of black, but is it worth it? You get Duress, Tutoring, Will and some sideboard options.

[Grand Inquisitor]

i've been testing my own version (on apprentice, so go get your huge grain of salt), and have come up with a similar build.  there are a few differences, so i'll just go down your decklist.

i run a 3/4 configuration on illusions/donate.  it ended up being that against aggro i always cast intuition early enough so that 3 of each were still in the deck, and against control they always let the illusions resolve anyway.  i don't run morphling md, and still do fairly well against control thanks to extra card draw and deck thinning.

-1 illusions of grandeur
-1 morphling

my counterbase was identical except that i run 2 mana leak (great with medallions and my mana base...), and since there are a lot of new decks where misd is sub-optimal, i've relegated the 2nd misd to the sb.

+2 mana leak
-1 misdirection

my search is much different running 3x intuition, 2x merchant scroll and 2x ancestral knowledge.  i know everyone who has tried trix has tested this and found it lacking, but its always been great for me.  my biggest reason for running it is that aggro is on the rampage, and that means i need to combo right now.  this looks 10 cards deep, and also gets rid of anything i don't want to draw in the future.  sure, it usually gets sided out against control, but it has also made the late game against control much more bearable, since i've gotten rid of any land or medallions i didn't want to draw.  lastly, i've added a pair of deep analysis to augment the card draw (sometimes AK for 3 isn't enough).  they make great intuition targets, and give more of an edge for the control matchup.

-1 intuition
-2 merchant scroll
+2 ancestral knowledge
+2 deep analysis

since we both agree that medallions are a good idea, and since you run 4x merchant scroll, i would think the full set of moxen would be appealing.  i've found that even though i'm running a 2 card win condition, that if i can get an early medallion or two against control i can almost out-tempo them.  i've also decided to include 4 strands to fetch islands with.  the life loss is often negligible and the deck thinning is great since you only really need a certain amount of mana against aggro and combo.

+4 moxen
+4 flooded strand
-8 island

the sb is always changing, but it does go suicide morphling games 2 & 3 against control

[Legend]

@Dave

Black was never really considered because Duress didn't add enough to warrant a splash. The deck already has enough protection for the combo, and enough counters to battle control decks. Yawg Will would be nice, but I don't want to start splashing just for restricted cards, because that would start leading us down the path of Kai's Trix deck that was essentially just the entire restricted list with a couple of Illusions thrown in. That deck was suboptimal. I would really like to stick to mono-blue unless some truly compelling reason to splash arises, which I don't foresee happening.

@GrandInquisitor

You are courting trouble if you run less than four of either combo piece. I would strongly recommend going up to four and four. Ancestral Knowledge is extremely suboptimal, and you would do well to cut them and put something better in those slots. As for fetchlands, we considered running them, but I almost never have mana flood problems. I actually want to draw Islands with this deck, especially when I go to the transformational sideboard. I think the fetchlands are unnecessary.


Now, here is an amazing hand I got against FeverDog a little while ago in an Apprentice game. I went first. I mulliganed to six. The game only lasted two turns, so here were my plays for turns one and two:

TURN 1: Island, Mox Sapphire, Sol Ring, Sapphire Medallion

TURN 2: Tap Sapphire, Merchant Scroll, get Ancestral. Tap Island, Ancestral. Draw Illusions of Grandeur, Black Lotus, and Island. Donate already in hand. Play Island. Play Lotus. Sac Lotus for UUU. Tap Sol Ring. Play Illusions for three, and Donate for two. Game over. Medallion is great.\n\n

[cooberp]

I do think you guys are missing the point of black, which is Necro and Bargain--the *real* combos with Illusions.  Not that there aren't advantages to going monocolor, but while Duress, Tutors, and Will are all incredibly valuable assets for the deck, it's the two autowin cards that make black worth it if you want to go that route.

Personally, I've never quite understood the rationale behind mono-blue Trix.  You've got a bunch of counters, so you're clearly not a balls to the wall combo deck.  What's the advantage of playing 8 win conditions, each half being worthless without the other, when you can just play 4 Morphlings?  If you want to play combo, it seems that *at least* black is the way to go, as it enables you to pluck counters with Duress, search for combo parts, and get you-win-now card drawing.  Combo-control never really made sense to me, but maybe that's just a matter of temperament.

Westredale was working on a build of three-color Rector Trix that he seemed pretty confident in.  Maybe he could post it so we could discuss the pros and cons of Mono-U versus multicolor for Illusions/Donate?

[Rico Suave]

I agree with cooberp, keeping it mono-colored just for consistency is not worth it.  If you want more consistency, playing 4 Ophidians and 4 Morphlings would be even better.  

I've been working on a B/U/W version of Bargain-Trix with Rectors too, and it's just nuts.  It's one of the rare combo decks that can do more than hold it's own against 14+ counters.  It wouldn't be able to do that without black.  Before I forget, the loss of mana-base consistency is hardly a factor.  I imagine westredale uses a solid mana-base too, and Wasteland aren't usually a problem because broken Rector plays and fetchlands exist, so I can dodge them for the most part.  Aggro may take one game every once in a while from me because of Wastelands, but rarely 2 out of 3.  That's what counts, I think.

[iceman]

4 Ophidians and 4 Morphlings, this is Combo, not Forbiddian   . Honestly, cretureless is the only way to go for MonoU. I've play tested w/ Morphlings and Ophidians. The Ophids were a complete waste, and 3 Morphlings found their way into my sideboard.

[cooberp]

I think his point was, if you're going with mono-blue and a handful of counters, you're better off with Phids and Morphlings than Illusions and Donates.

[Mystic Penitent]

I played a bit with the above decklist finding it quiet good thank you

My first comments are:

Sapphire Medallions : They show they are some good, I think its not bad keeping them. Gets the deck wins a turn / two turns faster.

Cunning Wish : I found myself in a good number of situations where the Cunning Wish's total was either 2 or 3. I was thinking -1 Merchant Scroll, +1 Cunning Wish.

Comments?

[3libras]

I have some questions in for deck. The first thing that jumps out at me is four merchant scrolls, I assume they are used to fetch usually, ancestral, intuition, or cunning wish if the situation calls for it, but i wonder if cutting them down to two in favor of more search /cunning wishes would be a good idea. I also think the medallion idea is strange , but you have made it sound good, one thing about it though. The early game for me seems like the time when combo can most easily be disrupted, in the particular case of trix it can be when an early elvish lyrist or seal of cleansing drops. Maybe turning the four medallions in to moxes and putting four mana leaks in might be a good idea to counteract this.
Consider an alternate situation, you get a good start like an early medallion, just to see your opponent throw down a lyrist. If the medallion had been a mox, a mana leak might have countered the creature. I know that this may be rare, but the situation is all the same, do you want to tap yourself out in the early game? I thought the point of a more stable mono blue version of the combo was that you had time to wait because of your strong counter base, and you can afford to combo a few turns later, the medallions seem to fly in the face of that theme.
I'm not trying to dismiss or flame the deck, I just want your opinion. I hope i've brought up another way to look the card choice issues.

[cooberp]

Also, you might want to board a Hoodwink as a Wishable way to kill an opponent who has enough mana to pay Illusions upkeep long enough to kill you.

[cooberp]

My thoughts on this build, which I do prefer to the mono-U version:

1. 4 Ritual is a must in a deck with Necro that likes fast mana.
2. I don't get the Twister--you're a Necro/Bargain deck...
3. Is 2 Donate too tight?
4. Brainstorm/Fetch is nice in a control deck, but in a combo deck you just want dig.  4 Impulse would be much better IMO.
5. How do you plan on saccing those Rectors with just 3 MD ways to do it?  I would at LEAST board some sac-Rector effect to Wish for and probably try to fit another in MD as well.
6. Lotus Petal might be a consideration.  You really want artifact mana when you are going off.
7. What's your board?  Do you bring in beatdown?

[Legend]

@3libras

Cutting any of the Merchant Scrolls would not be wise. They glue the deck together, allowing you to get whatever you need for the given moment. The Merchant Scrolls allow you to get your fourth Accumulated Knowledge, Ancestral Recall, Cunning Wish, countermagic, and Intuition should you need it. Four Merchant Scrolls is a mandatory choice. As for the Sapphire Medallions, I explained their application rather thoroughly in the opening, but I will briefly reiterate here. The Medallions allow this deck to explode in one turn, spitting out the combo for five mana, sometimes even less. But beyond that, the Medallions are just generally useful. Almost every spell in this deck benefits from Medallion. There is no reason not to play a card that basically says "all spells in your deck now cost one less mana than they usually do."

[Cecilia Jupe]

i just got out of the shower and i had come up with a trix deck very similar to this that had the morphling SB tech. i definantly think another wish should be added.

@cooberp - you can wish for capsize to kill them. also illusions-donate was originaly mono blue before michelle bush got a hold of it.

[FeverDog]

Thank you Molot, you have just saved me and Legend a lot of time with your post.

Anyone who still wants to suggest multi-color Trix is referred to Molot's post. I want everyone to read it carefully, because it explains perfectly why MonoU is better. Thank you.

 \n\n

[Cecilia Jupe]

i was just having fun earlier today and a made a 2 color trix deck using replenish. its not quite tuned to where it needs to be and its missing several cards like tutors, but it has a new twist on the deck, namely dream halls/bargain.
here is my suboptimal list:

        1 Plains
        4 Island
        3 Flooded Strand
        3 Adarkar Wastes
        4 Tundra
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Balance
        1 Windfall
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Time Walk
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Mind over Matter
        1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
        4 Force of Will
        3 Donate
        4 Illusions of Grandeur
        4 Attunement
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        3 Intuition
        1 Parallax Wave
        2 Parallax Tide
        2 Future Sight
        1 Dream Halls
        4 Replenish

i think the principle is viable but it probably isnt as good as mono blue. im just posting it for reference to other ways to use the combo/

[Matt The Great]

That deck is EXACTLY the kind of thing MolotDET meant when he said that multicolored Donate decks are just "strapping the combo onto some other engine". If you're able to resolve Replenish, you should just win the game there and then with Saproling Burst/Pandemonium. Hence, what you've posted is almost certainly not worth putting any more time into. You'd be better off starting at Pandeburst and trying to cut colors.

Also, as a heads up: "I just threw this together today" is not good enough to post in this forum.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

You could also run 1 Psionic Blast in the sideboard to Wish for in case any jokers think they are cool because they gained 2 life.

[FeverDog]

Honestly, although i myself was very skeptical, the Medallions are much better than off-color Moxen in here. It just accelerates the deck in a whole different way, letting you cast Scroll-Intuition-AK with only 4 mana is just broken. Its also nice that they are basically immune to Shaman in the early game.

As for the number of Intuitions, thats a good question. While its true you never want to draw more than 2-2 during a game, thats not likely to happen even with 4 copies. Running 4 insures that you dont have to Scroll for one, and it lets you pitch one to FoW/MisD without worry. Also, once you go Int-AK, you can still fetch combo pieces(we run 4 of each so its not a problem). Obviously the deck could run on only 3, but i cant see what we would replace it with, other than a 3rd MisD perhaps.


EDIT:

I would like to note that several posts by MolotDET and Legend have been deleted for some reason, as a result my posts in this thread seem totally incoherent. Im not sure why the posts were deleted, no flaming of any kind took place, and now the discussion makes almost no sense at all.\n\n

[urza's child]

Just wondering, why no despotic scepter??? If you're playin against turboland, keeper, or anything that has tons of land, why SB hoodwink? I've seen turbo lich with 2 of these, why not in this???

[Matt The Great]

1. Scepter is not Wishable.
2. Scepter is narrow as fuck.

Also, playing against Keeper, they have no way of avoiding the impeding death except lifegain. They can't outrace the upkeep and kill you before the Illusions kills them.

You don't need Scepter. It does nothing that can't be done by more reliable and versatile cards.

[Nevyn]

I am glad to see you using medallions legend. I recall debating that with you some time ago.  I also think inquisitor's suggestion of deep analysis has some merit (at least in the sb)given that you use medallions. It would give you something to intuition for other than the combo and accumulated knowledge, and it gains twice as much from sapphire medallion as a typical blue card.

I also think that your sideboard may be better off with gainsays than misdirections.

[Legend]

Yes, I remember that from back in the day on BD. Good to see that you have warmed to the Medallions now. As for Deep Analysis, though, I just can't see how it would fit in. The competition for slots in this deck is intense, and with the Intuition/AK combo, Ancestral, Stroke, and FOF already aboard, I would rather use remaining slots for more utility and countering. True, Deep Analysis is quite good with Intuition, but in playing this deck I find that the AK's are generally more than sufficient, especially since they can be fetched with Merchant Scroll. Now, on your suggestion of Gainsay. This is not a bad suggestion, but having the two extra Misdirections versus two Gainsays gives you a greater chance of being able to force a Morphling through against control decks once you have gone to the transformational board. In general, I like Misdirection a lot more than Gainsay because this deck needs to force through critical spells without mana available, hence the superiority of pitch countering over more hard counters. Gainsay is not without its merits, but for now I will stay with the Misdirections.\n\n

[Deletehead]

In my opinion the main reason to run trix is the fact that it's
mono-colored...Black is tempting of course but with only one
Necro and search that's just as versatile available to Blue
the extra color is pointless...as far as just playing Morphling
instead, it can't kill you on turn two...Anyway, my only question is in regards to the lack of Tolarian Academy...Why not?
Here's the build I've had together on Apprentice for a couple
of years and it's relatively consistent, I've added the Fetchlands and Brainstorm since the deck should never need
more than 2 Islands in play and 5 Ancestralls=  

Artifact:12
4 Sapphire Medallion
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Blue:28
4 Illusions
4 Donate
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestrall

Land:20
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Flooded Strands
4 Polluted Delta
10 Island

Sideboard
1 Intuition
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Misdirection
1 Mana Drain
1 FoF
1 Capsize
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Morphling
4 Counterspell

So this version is a bit more combo and less control but I like
it. I think Trix is probably the most consistent and difficult
to disrupt combo out there and if I was gonna play combo
in a tournament this would be it...

[Dante]

Quote (FeverDog @ Feb. 07 2003,15:29)EDIT:

I would like to note that several posts by MolotDET and Legend have been deleted for some reason, as a result my posts in this thread seem totally incoherent. Im not sure why the posts were deleted, no flaming of any kind took place, and now the discussion makes almost no sense at all.

Yah, can someone summarize the posts that were deleted..

Also, MolotDET has a mono-blue Trix report from 2/9/03 in the tournament report section.  While the deck has some different cards, it would be a good spot to see (generally) how the deck is played.

Dante

[Mith]

Why is there no Mystical Tutor? I would think it would be nice to have a way to fetch Donate.

Also, is the transformational sideboard really that necessary? Three Morphlings? This is Trix, not pseudo-BBS. MolotDET is running Cursed Totem and Ensnaring Bridge...both of which are really good for this deck to be able to board.

I think dropping one Merchant scroll for a Mystical Tutor would be a good idea. Mystical fetches just about every card in this deck...it's a given that it should be included.

And props for running a Mana Short  That card has really fallen out of favor in Type 1...but it really is good to be able to start a counterwar on your own grounds. Stupid Misdirections and FoW make it less than optimal though.

Finally, one Psionic Blast is good in the board...just incase your opponent managed to cycle a Renewed faith or something...and you just need that little bit of extra damage for the kill.

[FeverDog]

@Mith

The only card in the deck that Mystical can fetch and Scroll cant is Donate, for this reason it just doesnt make the cut. I much rather Intuition for 3 Donates and save myself the card-disadvantage.

The transformational sb is necessary in our opinion. Combo always has a hard time vs control, even when you run a decent amount of counters, and its much easier to force through a lone Morphling than both combo pieces. In the control matchup, Morphling is basically a "one card combo", and we have found it more effective than leaving the combo in.

As for Psionic Blast in the sb, yes, that is a good idea. We had considered it thoroughly and it was basically one of the last cards cut from the sb, i think its use as an anti-lifegain card reserves it a spot in my sideboard.\n\n

[Mith]

Well, I'm not really sure why there's a BEB in the board. It's not like you're scared of Blood Moon or something. I'd drop that for the Psionic Blast. Other than that, the deck plays very well...four merchant scrolls has certainly proved enough to grab an intuition and finish the combo quickly...I have to say that this version really is impressive. And you're right, having the transformational board lets you beat control more often. The only problem I have had with this version is that sometimes it feels a bit mana light...especially if I happen to not draw a medallion. I've been slightly short on mana to combo a few times now...and that's cost me the turn that lost the match.

And I have yet to put that mana short in the board to good use...maybe that could be dropped along with the hurkyl's for a two spot opening...so that you can board either cursed totems (great for stopping lyrists) or ensnaring bridges (sui can be a hard matchup) depending on the meta.

Just my two bits so far...