TMD is a great place to introduce a new decks. Iam workin...

[shadowspawn]

Seeing as I have played Workshop.dec for a year and a half off and on, I see it fit to add something to the discussion. First, the draw engine; this is what the decks needs to race out other decks, In your deck you're using lodestone, so Howling Mine seems like a good fit, however, relying on a 2 card combo for a draw engine none the less=crap. Playing Post-Mirrodin MUD(Mykeatog's deck, credits btw) Mind's Eye became the draw engine, it doesn't rely on another card to be "good" all the time, in fact, I really never did like the Skullcap's in Pre-Mirrodin builds, cause sometimes I had lack of mana with only a metalworker in play, and with Skullcap I ended up losing my hand, and mana. However, Mind's Eye is always good, except without mana AND Metalworker, which by the way, doesnt happen often, although, Mind's Eye does rely on mana to make a real difference, but In Welder-Mud and Mud its not as mana heavy as you would think.

Concerning the rest of the deck, I must say it looks "above-average" but it has alot of potential. The Myr is very good but I'm not sure if basing a deck with inferior cards compared to those of today is a good idea, For example, the new Mud is using Stack,Wires,CotV and Spheres in 4s with no situational cards. A second kill for MUD is a good thing though, and Myr holds potential in itself for having a natural synergy with Mud's MD. In my short xperience with the new MUD i've noticed a few things, Smokestack is getting sided out ALOT, this is perhaps a reason to maindeck something else like Null rod or Null Brooch. Although Smokestack does win games by itself, and it's huge cc, for Karn , is a positive.

Something else that has been tryed is the bazaar/squee engine. However I like it on paper, but when playing with you, you will notice how much losing 8 slots is bad, also if you don't draw squees your in a bad position.

I will try to help you most I can, but I say this, your results have been posted rather quickly, So I really think after getting a well-rounded deck out, play a good 10 or 15 games with it(minimum) and then post results, and if need be, changes.

[Abhorsen105]

Have you considered Icy Manipulators?
I know ages ago a friend of mine used it and static/winter/mine as a combo in his old prison deck. It may be a good addition/replacement for loadstone Myr.

Then again, it may be too costly and redundant if you get the Myr out often enough.
I'm curious to see what peoples ideas on this are and if you've already tried it and decided icy didn't make the cut.

[EVAxKPx@!]

Personally I don't think Icys are needed. They're a 4 to cast lock down that requires an activation cost. Combined with the orb and tangle wires that's just plain overkill. Myrs can be revived using welder if needed so they don't really need another "tapper."

[BaronSengir]

Myr > Icy because of the utility that myr possesses

Quote Mind's Eye became the draw engine, it doesn't rely on another card to be "good" all the time

Actually, Mind's eye seems superb. I have never thought of this before. Its actually pretty easy to cast considering the metalworkers and mana acceleration you are running. Its also pretty broken depending on the deck you play against. Your opponent is constantly casting spells, and paying 1 to draw a card is almost heaven. I'll discuss with partner. It sounds really good

Quote Concerning the rest of the deck, I must say it looks "above-average" but it has alot of potential. The Myr is very good but I'm not sure if basing a deck with inferior cards compared to those of today is a good idea, For example, the new Mud is using Stack,Wires,CotV and Spheres in 4s with no situational cards. A second kill for MUD is a good thing though, and Myr holds potential in itself for having a natural synergy with Mud's MD. In my short xperience with the new MUD i've noticed a few things, Smokestack is getting sided out ALOT, this is perhaps a reason to maindeck something else like Null rod or Null Brooch. Although Smokestack does win games by itself, and it's huge cc, for Karn , is a positive.

Glad you like it. Mainly the differance in this deck is the change around of the Critters and Lock parts. I noticed that newer MUD lists ran cards like trisk, mox monkey, and are starting to cut down on metalworkers and welders. However the lock pieces that I am running bear a slight resemblance,
namely sphere,tangle,chalice. The differant configurations/cards are static orbs (which mini-combo with tangle wire and myr), and a lone stack and cap

      4 Sphere of Resistance
      4 Tangle Wire
      4 Static Orb
      3 Chalice of the Void
      1 Smokestack
      1 Jester's Cap

The basic idea of this deck is to first achieve a "statis" type combo, keeping everything tapped and impossible to cast, then weedling down with smokestack, and recurring cap. Swing with myr or karn for the kill

BTW, can you help me netdeck (i know, i know) on appr?

So the possible change right now:
-3 Grafted Skullcap
+3 Mind's Eye

-4 Mountain
+4 Great Furnace (good synergy with metalworker and myr)

Thank you all for the feedback! its really appreciated!

[Tripps]

I know you like Lodestone Myr and all, but I just don't see how adding him, and bastardizing the MUD lock to make oen thats Synergistic with him is better than the MUD lock with Karn.

Also, I noticed you said one of the reasons you chose Howling Mine was because you didn't have to discard, but usually, with Grafted Skullcap, you should drop your whole hand, so  you don't have to worry about discard, and if you do, you have Welders. I would run four skullcaps, beucase they are never dead, and Artifact lock decks tend to stall out after turns 3-4 and really need the draw of the Skullcaps.

Furthermore, you may want to consider Petrified Field to get back Shops/Acad that get Wasted, if you decide to do it, I'd cut the City of Traitors.

Also, I think I saw a -1 Memory Jar somewhere? Never cut Memory Jar. Ever. EVER.

And, one more thing, Do you really need THREE myrs? If you are going to use them, I wouldn't think you'd need three. It seems to me that thee makes it want to play kind of like an aggro deck, and a prison type deck wants to establish its lock, then go for throatal region.

[BaronSengir]

May I stress this for ONE LAST time, read before you question the deck's purpose and why I decided to play this over wMUD, Stax, Dirt Pile, Slax, and lots of other effective prison decks

Achieve a "statis" type lock with the mini-combo between Tangle Wire/Static Orb/Myr. Keep them from doing anything with Chalice and Sphere, then wriggle them down / beat them up with Lodestone Myr and wipe their board with Smokestacks. Rest of the deckplay is similar to most artifact prison decks. Self Explanatory[/i]

@Tripps: I see many of your points, but I think you've been reading outdated information. The decklist has been almost completely revamped. It now runs Mind's Eye instead of skullcaps or howling mine. Lock parts been fiddled around too. and the 3 myr is essential. I will lower it no lower.

I've been talking to my design teammates, and they brought up lots of things, namely:

Karn: Utility limited in face of the statis lockdown, you won't need to hose moxen because they are tapped anyways. Animating for kill may not be needed if you have 3 Myrs

3 Myrs: absoloutly essential. If i run 2 i won't draw them. Then i can't achieve the kind of lock that i want (although it is perfectly possible to achieve a softer lock without myr)

Cap: From a very competant player:

Quote Ok, lets try this one more time, and this time instead of just repeating your arguments, try answering mine. It helps avoid flame wars and keep discussions as healthy discussions not meaningless wastes of bandwith. First of all, i know the is a house in two matchups: keeper and Hulk. if you expect to see these decks, MD cap is a good idea, since they have few victory conditions and are easily crippled. However, hulk is declining in popularity faster then GaT did when gush was restricted. In its place, Neo-GaT has emerged as a serious contender and possibly tier 1 deck, and it has too many threats to reliably cap them all. You'd be better off with the 4th chalice or more lock cards in this matchup. Third, the 4th chalice will mean allot more against Long and Burning academy then 1 cap. Fourth, Cap is dead against anything aggro, and anything iwth more then 3 victory conditoins in thier deck, whereas more smokestacks or chalice can make a HUGE difference in these games. Fifth, i know you are going to answer number 4 by saying "but i can recur the cap". No ****, i know that, i'm not a noob or a scrub. unofortunately, i've said repeatedly before that if you are recurring anything it should be lock cards like tangle wire and smokestacks, since those will combine with sphere to end the game as certainly as cap would, but without being a dead card in some matches. Sixth, just so we are clear, this slot is a metagame choice. if you face tons of bad combo (ie not long, burning academy or dragon), or keeper and Hulk are popular choices in your meta, then the cap is good, but if you have a more diverse or lower powered meta then cap is often dead while stacks are a house and a half.

Enough said.

A possible Change to the "Bolts" part

Current:
     4 Sphere of Resistance
     4 Tangle Wire
     4 Static Orb
     3 Chalice of the Void
     1 Smokestack
     1 Jester's Cap

Changes:
-1 Karn
-1 Jester's Cap

     4 Sphere of Resistance
     4 Tangle Wire
     4 Static Orb
     3 Chalice of the Void
     3 Smokestack
Or 4 chalice, 2 smokestack. Or 4 smokestack, 2 chalice (this is 100% unlikely, but listing possibilites)

Discuss this turn of events please! I want to optimize the bolt (a.k.a. lock) part asap then get to work on creature to lock ratios AS WELL as draw engine, then mana base tweaking

TESTING WILL START WHEN:[/i]
1) LOCKPARTS: Finalize and given a definite shape
2) DRAW ENGINE: Mine (probly not) Grafted (maybe) Mind's Eye (likely)
3) CRITTERS (Karn or not? 1 less welder?)
4) MANA BASE: (Petrified vs. City of traitors? Great Furnace)

PLEASE DISCUSS THESE CHANGES!! Iam so happy with all the feedback Iam getting. Its really made this list progress alot. Once again, THANK YOU FOR ALL FEEDBACK!

[BreathWeapon]

I have to fully agree with Shadowspawn on his view of Howling Mine. Its cute, but its hard to get it to work effectively. Mind's Eye is just insane, and I believe that wMUD vs wMUD ... the player with the Eye will defeat the player with the Skullcap easily. I also cut Memory Jar, I felt with the added draw power of Mind's Eye it just wasn't necessary.

Here is the version i'm running,

"Deadbolt"

4xLoadstone Myr
4xMetal Worker
4xGoblin Welder

4xMind's Eye

4xStatic Orb
4xTangle Wire

4xSphere of Resistance
4xChalice of the Void

2xJester's Cap

1xTolarian Academy
4xMishra's Workshop
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
7xMountain
1xMana Vault
1xMana Crypt
7xSoLoMoxen

Side Board

4xRack and Ruin
5xRed Elemental/Pyro Blast
4xTormod's Crypt
2xJester's Cap

From my experience, Smokestack doesn't belong in the deck. Loadstone Myr is VERY permanent hungry. I have never felt that Static Orb and Tangle Wire wasn't enough to lock my opponent. Every time I dropped Smokestack, it seemed completely counterproductive. Why destroy tapped permanents and reduce the strength of my Myr? I decided to toss the 2 Smokestacks and replace them with Jester's Caps, which I have always loved.

In an ideal world, Smokestack and Tangle Wire are intended to interact with one another in order to control the board. Smokestack reduces the number of peraments, and Tangle Wire locks down any remaining targets. In this deck, Static Orb performs the same function as Smokestack. The sOrb limits the number of permanents on the board by reducing the amount that can be untapped. Similarly, Tangle Wire will disable any untapped permanents after Static Orb has limited the number of the Wire's potential targets.

The two cards, Smokestack and Static Orb, perform the same function in "Deadbolt," albeit by different meens. However, Loadstone Myr allows you to brake the symmetrical nature of the lock with Static Orb. So in effect, you have a variant of wMUD that has the potential of a one way Smokestack. While Smokestack may be superior than sOrb on its own,  sOrb and Wire are a significantly faster lock mechanism than the Smokestack and Wire. If you factor in Loadstone Myr to the equation, you will produce a deck with significantly superior synergy than classical wMUD.

Other advantages i've noticed with Deadbolt over wMUD,

1) The deck has the ability to turn into a raw aggro deck by dropping a couple of artifacts and a Loadstone Myr first turn. Unlike Karn, who gets chump blocked, Loadstone can roll over the opponents creatures with relative ease. The Myr behaves in a similar manor to Dryads in Grow, but far superior. Your not dependant on "Growing" the Myr after you have put it into play, it immediately gains the benefit of every permanent under your control. You don't have to worry about the opponent removing your "Artifact Dryad" from play and having to start back at square one, you can simply drop another Myr and remain at the same power level. To top it all off, you get Trample for free.

2) When you consider the rather awful synergy Smokestack has with Karn, you have to admire how well "Deadbolt's" key lock piece and win condition, Loadstone Myr and Static Orb, get along.

3) Artifact Mutation is significantly less destabilizing with the sOrb/Wire lock than it is with the Stack/Wire lock.

In short, I have fallen in love with the deck and favor it over traditional wMUD.

[BaronSengir]

That being said, heres a "minimal staring at appr list" version:

Lets start from this list, and we can restart Discuission of the 4 essential parts, namely:

//Screws: 7th mountain? Great Furnace?
//Keys: Yes or no on Karn? 4... or 3 Lodestone Myrs?
//Bolts: Smokestack or not? Run all 4 chalice? Utility Cards like Keg, Disk, Wheel, Mox Monkey, Cap, or Trisk?
//Doorknobs: Is Mind's Eye a house? Should Grafted Skullcap go in there? Run 4 Eye, or 3?

//NAME: Deadbolt v.2.3
// Screws
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Tolarian Academy
        6 Mountain
        2 City of Traitors
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
// Keys
        4 Metalworker
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Lodestone Myr
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Static Orb
        3 Chalice of the Void
        1 Smokestack
// Doorknobs
        3 Mind's Eye
        1 Memory Jar

4 Myr: This deck needs or wants myr as a functional unit of its lock integrity. As such, you need 4 to draw into. It becomes the basis of your MD "statis" style lock

3 Mind's Eye: We have the problem with redudancy. You only need 1 Mind's Eye out to grab card advatange: the rest quickly become dead cards. Two are in for backup in case first gets blown, but beyond that theres no point in casting them when you can spend 5 mana on many other things.

The Lone Stack: Ah yes. Contrary to everybody saying stacks don't belong in this deck, stack is still there as a panic button, the most desperation way of reseting board control. Probably not needed, but I dont' want to run 4 chalice, and I decided to put the spot into "The Lone Star"

@BreathWeapon: Iam very gratified that you have made a decklist and are testing. What are your results? How difficult are your matchups against tier 1 archtypes, Hulk, Dragon, Long, etc...? Is running 4 of everything too redundant? Do you find dead cards?

[BreathWeapon]

The Great Furnace is a big fat no. Turning Gorilla Shaman into the LD critter from hell is not cool.

You should definately cut the City of Traitors. They suck without Smokestack to off set their self detonation. Ancient Tombs or Mountain#7 is the way to go. Grim Monolith also seems to really suck with Tangle Wire, but rock with Static Orb. I'd keep an eye on it.

I just can't say no to Karn. If you want to run the 1 Karn 3 Myr pattern, go for it. I was seriously tempted to cut the Jester's Caps and keep in the Karns. That configuration felt a lot like GAT, Myr being the Dryad and Karn being the Tog. They seem to effectively serve the exact same roles in this deck. Myr will attack aggressively to keep the opponent in check, and Karn will just show up to say,"You Lose." I know it sounds crazy, but Deadbolt is the GAT of Workshop. I think this is the deck's strongest selling point, and the significant tempo differences between Deadbolt and wMUD make a big difference in several match ups. I'm not done testing the 6 win condition version of Deadbolt. Cap just steals games from Dragon. Its a really hard call, i'd like to include Karn to help define the decks character as "Workshop GAT," but I have a deep respect for the current power of Jester's Cap. I'm looking for your input here.

I think you need to get over the, "my deck is redundant" hang up. wMUD is a redundant deck, thats why people play it over Stax. Redundancy = Consistancy, and i'm willing to live with that.

My match ups look promising. For the purposes of these matches, I used the above Deadbolt list and wMUD running 4 Mind's Eye and 2 Jester's Cap with identical Side Boards.

Long.Dec

It doesn't matter what Workshop deck your playing, you either drop a Sphere or Chalice for 0 on turn 1 or die. I have noticed that by being more aggressive with 4 kill conditions, that Long should have even less of a chance to break out from under a Chalice for 0. I can't tell how significant this really is, but its something to consider. If Deadbolt does have an advantage here ... its probably negligable. I'd say this match up is in your favor, if only slightly.

Dragon.Dec

I have received mixed results vs Dragon. In this match up, Smokestack is significantly better than Static Orb. However, having 4 kill conditions that can "Gro" aggressively has stolen entire games after a turn 1 drop. So, you lose and win a few games based on these differences. I haven't noticed a significant shift in either direction of wins or losses. That said, Mind's Eye and Jester's Cap have really pulled their weight vs Dragon. I'm very glad I decided to pull the Memory Jar and replace it with the Cap, it does make all the difference in the world. After sideboard, 4 Jester's Caps and 4 Tormod's Crypts you should have acceptable odds vs Dragon, its definately your roughest match up.

Rector.dec

This match up is significantly better game 1 for "Deadbolt" than wMUD. By replacing Smokestack with Static Orb, you completley prevent the opponent from sacking his Rector for free. sOrb/Wire will pin the Rector down long enough for Loadstone to take home the game. That said, Chalice of the Void, Mind's Eye and Jester's Cap are just insane vs Rector. Regardless of Deadbolt's fundamental differences from wMUD, you should have an awesome game. After Side Board, you should own Rector without mercy. You have great odds here.

Keeper.dec

These games seem to go back and forth depending on how much Hate Keeper has in its Side Board. It is very difficult to accurately judge and record the differences between Deadbolt and wMUD vs Keeper. I have enjoyed several "Oops I Win" games on account of having 4xMyr. The sOrb/Wire likes seems to be superior than Stack/Wire vs Decree of Justice and Goblin Trenches. That said, the individual power of Smokestack over Static Orb is definately felt in this match up ... as it is vs all control. This match up is up in the air. I'd say Deadbolt has the definate edge game 1, but after sideboard things could change. On the plus side, Mind's Eye and Jester's Cap are a HOUSE ... and you can effectively use REB now. Hopefuly, that should counter balance the additional Artifact Hate we are bound to see from Keeper. I'm going to say the match up is roughly even.

Scepter.dec

I haven't had any experience with this match up. Nothing is standardize yet, so it isn't worth the time.

Hulk.dec

Testing has been minimal here, on account of the deck's current hibernation. I'm not sure what the current builds look like. I imagine that with; Mind's Eye, Chalice of the Void and Jester's Cap you should have the advantage. If this deck does come out of hiding, I imagine it will be packing its Pernicious Deeds MD and Hukyl's in the SB. I'll wait and see here.

TnT.dec

TnT will post strong results vs any Artifact Prison from what i've seen. Survival is a pain in the ass and Triskelion gives them the Welder advantage. It greatly depends on what version of the deck they run, but its definately an unpleasant match up. I seem to have horrible luck here, TnT just scores points on me like a cheap whore, so do your own testing ... as my bad luck really makes me biased here.

Stacker.dec

Having 4xLoadstone Myr really shines in this match up, and Static Orb is definately superior than Smokestack. The decks major changes from wMUD definately give it a small edge. That said, Stacker is still a very strong deck, and your Rack and Ruins will undoubtably cancel each other out. The Jester's Caps are total shit in this match up, side them out first. Stacker's direct damage will give it the ability to remove your Welders from the board, so be sure and drop Chalice for 1 as soon as possible to keep Welders out of the game. I'm not done testing this match up.

Madness.dec

Once again, 4xLoadstone Myr and Static Orb really shine vs the tougher Aggro match ups. Mind's Eye makes Madness players cry. sOrb/Wire lock is HUGE after Madness brings in 4 Artifact Mutation. Your game should definately be better than normal wMUD. If you win the coin toss, Chalice and Sphere are HUGE. The 4 Crypts from the side board are of minimal worth surprisingly, but they are definately better than the Main Decked Caps. You should have the edge here.

Fish.dec

You should have a good game vs Fish game 1. Loadstone Myr will walk all over them silly Merfolk. Mind's Eye makes a significant difference than Skullcap in this match up, no doubt. Even after the sideboard for Fish, assuming 4x Energy Flux, their game still isn't very good. Now that we can use REB, the one bullet Fish had vs Workshop is significantly weaker. Fish decks just aren't prepared for an Aggro/Prison deck. As it stands, this match up is favorable unless Fish evolves some how, and Fish players are pretty damn resourceful at that.

GATr.dec, this is purely specualtion.

From what I have seen of the new GATr lists, we shouldn't have a great deal of trouble here. Loadstone Myr can go pound for pound vs any Dryad, and the card advantage you can force of a Tog is huge. Mind's Eye should really shine here. Pernicious Deed is less of a threat in GAT than it is in Hulk as well. I'll get back to you on this.

Monoblack.dec

These match ups are a Joke. Loadstone Myr eats Negator and Shade for lunch. Your Prison > Their Prison. Unless they are packing Green for Deeds and Naturalize out of the side board, this match up is extremely favorable. Even after the side board, you have little to fear.

Ankh Sligh.dec, with Sideboard of pure Artifact Hate.

This is an interesting match up. Game one is yours with little trouble. Game 2 is insane. You gain nothing from your side board and Ankh Sligh sides in 15 answers to everything in your deck. Rack and Ruin, Crash, Meltdown are all very painful. Don't laugh off this match up, if their Side Board is gunning for you it wont be an easy match ... and I learned this the hard way. It should be in your favor, but Sligh just steals games.

wMUD.dec

The "Mirror" is in your favor. Smokestack is a dead card for wMUD, Static Orb is awesome for you. Game 1 should be to your advantage. Game 2 the wMUD player will side out his Smokestacks for Rack and Ruin, while you have greater flexibility in what you side out for your own Rack and Ruin. You can attempt to gun for Karn with Jester's Cap, while that strategy is far less effective vs Deadbolt and its 4 win conditions. You should definately watch out for the instant Karn drop = Win, but as long as you have sOrb/Wire in play your fine. I'll be bold enough to say that this match up will be favorable until wMUD adapts to the presence of Deadbolt.

Heh, that only took an hour. In short, things look promising. The only match ups I feel that i'm at a disadvantage against is Dragon and TnT, and that is more than acceptable.

[BaronSengir]

For Referance, heres a finalized list pre-testing

//NAME: Deadbolt
// Screws
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Tolarian Academy
        6 Mountain
        1 Bloodstained Mire
        1 City of Traitors
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
// Keys
        4 Metalworker
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Lodestone Myr
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Static Orb
        3 Chalice of the Void
        1 Smokestack
// Doorknobs
        3 Mind's Eye
        1 Memory Jar

Testing will start soon, thank you all for the feedback

[Tripps]

Quote (BaronSengir @ Nov. 20 2003,19:31)3 Myrs: absoloutly essential. If i run 2 i won't draw them.

But you expect to draw the ONE Smokestack? I think I read somehwere that you said you use the one Smokestack as Clean-up duty, but you don't think you'll draw one of two Myrs when you expect to draw the one stack? Maybe I read something wrong, but that seems odd.

Also, I DID read the purpose of the deck, I'm not asking why play it instead, I'm asking IF its better than Mud/Stax. And if so, in what matchups.

[Plainswalker]

First of all I'd like to say this is turning out pretty good and I'll probably start working on something similar myself. Also before I go to the negative stuff, I'll talk about the things I agree with.

3 Chalice- I don't know how many people have tested 4 whether in stax, mud or this, but more then 2 of these in play hurts, any deck, including this one. In fact, this is probably hurt more since some of it's pieces are closer to the same CC then in Welder Mud. Also the whole thing that is great behind Chalice is the fact that it can shut down whole decks, this deck doesn't have any way of finding what deck it's against until maybe 2nd or 3rd turn (or maybe first- Long) Not saying Chalice is bad in the artifact decks now, just that it is seen as to powerful sometimes.

Losing the Winter Orb- Pretty much had to go, Tangle Wire and Static Orb wrapped up what it did.

Losing Great Furnace- Depending on how fast this deck goes, keeping them or not are up in the air. I know you haven't tested much (you may have by now) If the deck looks like an aggro deck with a soft lock, keep em, if it still plays like Wmud then they should stay out.

Alright for other stuff now.

I think like most people I'd like to see the one Smokestack go, there is no Tinker or any kind of tutor in here and as for a "panic button" if your in trouble, smokestack is probaby gonna be to slow.

Karn doesn't need to be in here, and I think Mox Monkey is the right choice for this deck. It's not like Mud where Karn is the kill, your already packing 4 loadstone. The monkey is much better early game as well, which you might need if you get off to a slow start.

Card Draw- The reason I've always like stax over mud is because of the card draw. I've played with mud a decent amount and more times then not the deck would burn it's self out when it got no Grafted or Memory Jar. In this, Deadbolt, you've reduced the number of card drawers (obviously because they don't build on each other like Skull Cap) but I think you need to look into putting another form of card draw in. Skull Cap probably wouldn't work very well with Mind's Eye though. Maybe testing howling mine again, although I hate that card as much as Arcan Denial, you can actually make it work in here, even if it is conditional.

All in all I think it's a very cool idea, my last question was, is anyone looking at any other pieces that work with Loadstone Myr? It's dangerous to depend on him to much, but it'd be nice to see some old card come back to fit into this nicely.

O and Time Vault is   in the Mud vs Mud match up

[BreathWeapon]

on Karn,

If given the choice between using Gorilla Shaman or Karn, i'd still go with Karn.

Despite the casting cost difference, I rarely noticed a moment where I couldn't play Karn in place of the Gorilla Shaman after turn 2-3. If i'm looking at a hand where I have to consider dropping an early Shaman on account of a slow start, i'll take six cards. The Shaman never comes into play early for wMUD it seems, and Karn is a much more powerful Mox/Chalice hoser. By using Karn, you allow yourself to drop a Chalice for 1 before you have Welders or Shaman's on the board, as you can remove it later visa vi Karn to drop the Welders once they show up.

You can't ignore that with an open road, Karn is a 5 turn win condition on his own ... and a 0/8 Wall on defense. Plus, if Loadstone Myr is for some reason stalemated vs an opposing creature ... Dryad/Tog, Karn just shows up to win the game in a single turn. Also, if you manage to achieve the "One Way Smokestack" with Myr/sOrb, you'll have more animate targets in this deck than conventional wMUD. Yes, I know Karn seems like a win more card at times ... but like GAT's Tog, Karn is effectively your second win condition waiting in the bushes.

Despite the fact I am using 2xJester's Caps, which is completely a metagame call ... and such a good at that ... if I was playing this deck with a blind eye to Dragon I would definately run 2xKarn.

Stax???

Mind's Eye OWNZ Stax. Just let Ducktape die with TnT, its time for it to move on.

3 CotV,

I really can't believe any one would suggest playing only 3 CotV in wMUD. Have you guys played against Long.dec, or do you not care about this match up much? Chalice does EVERYTHING this deck could possibly want it to do, and it will definatly be a cold day in hell before I cut my full set of 4. If you want to run 3, go ahead and run 3, but your going to feel its loss at both the top and bottom rungs of any powered tournament.

Why this is "better,"

Where are Deadbolt's improved matches? Stacker and Madness are definately MUCH easier to handle with this deck than normal wMUD. It has an improved game vs Enchantress and ReAnimator, yes I know they aren't played much but its there. It seems to have a definate edge in the mirror match vs conventional wMUD, and it has a signifcantly higher percentage of, "Oops I Win" games across the board with 4-6 kill conditions. Artifact Mutation is much less of a threat as well. With Deadbolt being significantly more aggressive than wMUD, it is much more resilient to Hate of all kinds.

[BaronSengir]

//NAME: Deadbolt v.3.0
// Type: Aggro Prison
// Author: Sutra
// Format: Vintage
// Screws
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Tolarian Academy
        6 Mountain
        1 Bloodstained Mire
        1 City of Traitors
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
// Keys
        4 Metalworker
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Lodestone Myr
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Static Orb
        4 Chalice of the Void
// Doorknobs
        3 Mind's Eye
        1 Memory Jar

Well i hope your happy.  I finally cut the last smokestack, and I now have full sets of four in all my lock cards.

Card Draw: Is a absolute house and is almost no problem to cast with the insane amount of mana acceleration this deck is running. Plus, you don't have to discard your hand in the situations when you can't or are restricted from playing (lands, and lack of mana)

[BreathWeapon]

Eh, I wouldn't worry about Tripps. Whenever you screw around with such an established deck type people tend to react in a knee jerk reaction. Look at all of the people who doubted Mind's Eye ...

They shall join us soon ...

[BaronSengir]

Did some playtesting, exceedingly promising results. For example, against wMUD (I only had time to play against wMUD for now, played him maybe 2-3 times)

He dropped tons and tons and tons of lock permanents, mainly sphere of resistance and tangle wire. I responded with: Static orb and Lodestone Myr. He cried throughout the whole game and I kept recurring memory jar to us having 17 cards and 14 cards (him) in library. He jared himself and dropped so many things and then.... a karn. Then I decked him recurring Jar twice during my upkeep  
----------------------------------------------------------
Thats for that. I also playtested against tons of other archtypes, including Dragon, Long.dec, Hulk, Keeper / Shining, etc. What follows is a general list of conclusions drawn up during testing, other than the obvious "Set Chalice for (0) when playing Long, drop spheres and tangles on dragons, Drop anything on Hulk, Drop anything on Keeper, etc"

This deck needs no smokestacks. The statis lock rendered them as if they were in a smokestack lock, if even better, because they were basically restricted to the use of only 2 permanents a turn. I regret not listening to you guys earlier, but testing proved a voice of reason.

That being said, I also have a few problems. Although I can draw both creatures and locks in mostly balanced amounts every game, the critter to lock ratio is 13:16. Is that too many creatures? Testing seems to prove that this is about right, but theres still a nagging fear of over drawing the creatures I don't need, but yet this deck NEEDS 4 of every one to function (except for Karn)

Chalice is much of a house against everything.

Iam alsing thinking about 3, or 4 Mind's Eyes. Granted, I had huge broken tempo breaker in the form of recurring Memory Jars the WHOLE game, but I never drew a Mind's Eye early in the game when it alone could have garaunteed me at least an additional 10-12 cards after he went insane with the metalworkers, thus that would have might changed the tempo signifigantly in my favour. Possibly:

-1 Karn
+1 Mind's Eye

Karn's Utility is somewhat limited (although it severly hampens the opponents tempo by taking down 0 casting cost artifacts). Mox Monkey strictly has a lot more utility in a deck with metalworkers (generates lots of mana) but is a red and therefore unsynergistic when you want to actually cast with welder or considering you run 8 red sources. Therefore, Iam in a debate as to whether keep Karn, or ditch it for the 4th Mind's Eye or a Mox Monkey. Mox Monkey is also cheaper, but Karn is pretty easy to cast as well off Metalworker

Conclusions: This deck rocks.

Small problems: Creature : Lock ratio (even though testing proves otherwise, I still think this might be somewhat of a problem)

Questions: Mox Monkey OR an additional Mind's Eye over Karn, OR just keep the Karn? (check below for arguments)

MoxMonkey:Cheap, can use immediatly, crushes things fast with metalworkers and other mana acceleration. Cannot be used with metalworker when casting, but the 1cc makes it irrelavent. It also has more utility, but cannot animate artifacts and isn't a big blocker in its own right
Karn:Not as easy to drop as Mox Monkey, but easily nevertheless. Serves as a 0cc hoser, can animate artifacts, and is a huge 0/8 wall as well as a 4/4 decent beatstick
Mind's Eye: Good card drawer. Once one is on the board you don't need anymore, but there is the problem of not drawing it in the first place. Its all probably due to appr's crappy shuffling engine, but hopefully that can be fixed in 2.0 and the real fun will start.

[BreathWeapon]

I dropped the Memory Jar for the 4th Mind's Eye simply because the Jar is a dead card vs Dragon an awful lot. Yes, its UBER BROKEN ... but Mind's Eye is such a house that it has grown unnecessary. If you can replace the Memory Jar with any utility card that will improve your game against Dragon, I advise you to do so.

You should probably try out the Jester's Caps for yourself. They are very potent vs Dragon, Keeper, wMUD and anything else with 2-3 win conditions. Pre emptively removing the opponents hate is also a significant plus vs Fish etc.

So far, I haven't found any problems with my creatures to lock parts ratio. Let me know if you find something that you feel is significant. Sometimes, it can be your imagination working against you. I used to freak out when I couldn't find a Null Brooch to secure my lock vs Hurkyl's Recall etc, then I just learned to work around it.

[BaronSengir]

More Testing results!

Today on #apprentice, I had the honour playing ... Smmemen! There are probably too few type 1 players on #apprentice anyways, too many people opting for t2, 1.x, etc.

We played a series of 3 games each involving 2 decks.

Deck1 (Smmemen's Uberpowerful.dec)
Game1: He uses an incredibly   deck which i've never seen before, and completely  me.
Game2: More or less dead draws, I win advantage. I actually manage to set up a crude Myr/Tangle/Orb lock.
Game3: I drop metalworker first turn, and then when I start revealing my cards, he scoops.
2-1

Deck2 (SpoilsMask)
Game1: Drops Nought.  
Game2: Achieve statis lock (my memories vague on this one, so if he won, and probly did, don't bash me)
Game3: Vivid. He dropped Negator, then bashed me to 5. Dropped metalworker, and dropped the lock + a topdecked myr. I then draw into another couple wires and the games sealed.
2-1, 1-2 (? don't know)

Id like to thank Smmemen for all those games, really fun and gave me more results to prove me deck with.

I also liked this deck performed alot, even against Smmemen's Uberpowerful.dec and the retuned masknought. The deck's versatility means it can switch from aggro to lock anytime. It performs both functions at once, and is superbly balanced.

[BreathWeapon]

That reminds me, I haven't put in any testing against the new Mask deck. Despite blowing your head off with a Spoils, that deck is UBER consistant. I imagine it will be a coin toss match up, and Aggressive use of Mulligan's will be required to prove an edge. If you go first, 4 Mana and a Chalice for 2 will seal the game. If you go second, you do what you can with what you got  If its as coin toss as I think it will be, hopefuly Spoils "Oops I lost" will give you the winning advantage.

[BaronSengir]

more playtesting yesterday:

GAT: probably wouda lost with stax or MUD, but an early myr dropped plus tangle wire, orb and welders beat him to the dirt
game1: dryad i lose
game2: combo out and beat with myr
game3: scoops after two dropped spheres

Mono-B discard
game1: bad draws, but i get myr and mind's eye. droppes underworld dreams, but beat him to death anyways
game2: he drew another bad hand and i got the god hand, namely:

lodestone myr
static orb
tangle wire
goblin welder
mishra's workshop
mox ruby
metalworker

too good to be true, and he scooped after i started revealing my cards from metalworker

conclusions: deadbolt is extremely resilient. because it can switch from artifact prison to control at any given time, it can adapt to almost all situations.

[BreathWeapon]

I haven't found a situation yet where I felt the deck was lacking in any area. Its simply far more flexible than wMUD, and flexibility is its own weapon in the right circumstances.

The only things i'm still working on is the last 2 MD slots, which change from Memory Jar and Wheel of Fortune ... Jester's Caps, Gorilla Shaman's and even Mindslaver
The Side Board is up in the air at the moment. 4x Rack and Ruin is absolutely necessary, you need spot removal for Null Rod ... which is a pain. Other than that, Tormod's Crypt and REB are classics. Suggestions for SB in each match ups is also worth considering. Given ample play testing, I think the deck has hit "Primer Worthy" status.

That said, how are your match ups vs Fish? I'm having a rather difficult time vs this deck,

"Bouncing Fish.dec"

Creatures

4xCloud of Faeries
4xFlying Men
4xWaterfront Bouncer
4xGrim Lavamancer

4xForce of Will
2xMisdirection
4xStifle
3xNull Rod

4xStandstill
4xCuriousity

1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
4xMishra's Factory
4xFaerie Conclave
4xFetch Lands
4xVolcanic Island
2xIsland

SB

4xRack and Ruin
4xHurkyl's Recall
1xNull Rod
4xChalice of the Void
2xMisdirection

Waterfront Bouncer/Grim Lavamancer is a bitch, and the SB is dedicated Artifact/Combo hate.

[BaronSengir]

I have a question for you all, really need answers

are utility cards like Keg and Disk needed? given the kind of lock you have them in and the creature advantage with myr, it may not be needed, but can help against dropped biggies like morphling and such.

Breathweapon: Isn't that deck Gay/r? And yes, its kind of hard. considering so much hate, like rod and flux namely, not to mention the tons of counters and creature bouncers, it actually has a way to deal with lots of threats dropped. Your priority is to drop a hard on disruption, namely chalice set at 2 or 1 or sphere followed by a chalice. Land-d also helps to give you some more time, but it rolls down to draw and die roll in the end

[BreathWeapon]

I'm thinking if any form of utility removal is needed, it belongs in the SB. This deck has a few problematic cards it doesn't have any way to deal with, Null Rod, Moat, Humility. You don't see them ever in the top 8, with the exception of Null Rod, but they are still there. I'm thinking Nev Disc is counter productive and Powder Keg doesn't solve the problem either. MD and SB Jester's Caps and Chalices deal with the problems Pre-emptively, but if they do hit the table it will not go away. Perhaps we could SB Smokestack if its really an issue? My only concern is Null Rod at the moment, so Rack and Ruin with 2 extra Jesters Caps has been fine for me. Ofcourse, Parfait and Enchantress have always had good match ups vs Prison decks ... so maybe we should just consider an unlikely bad match up in a larger tournament and forget about it for now.

As far the U/R Fish variant, Bouncing Fish = Waterfront Bouncer, its a real pain in my local meta ... just thought it would be a good play testing tool for you.