Building Post Long ComboRed 21 Wheel of Fortune1 Burning ...

[thefram]

Building Post Long Combo

Red 2
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Burning Wish

Blue 18
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Time Spiral
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
2 Meditate
2 Chain of Vapor

Black 9
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Tendrils of Agony

1
1 Memory Jar


Mana - 30
4 Dark Rital
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
5 Moxen
2 Chromatic Sphere
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
2 Hurlkyl's Recall
3 Overload
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Tinker
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Regrowth

In light of the restrictions I apprenticed this list up last night. No this is not a finished build. No, it has not been tested, only goldfished (in which it managed admirably, turn two being pretty much the norm, turn at about 10-15%).

It is essentially Long.dec - 3 burning wish - 3 LED.

It is very fast, has plenty of Blue pitch for FOW, doesnt have the asynergy of FOW and LED too prevalently, and is most importantly not vulnerable to the dragon hate like the rector builds are.

The only choices of note are the following.

2 Talisman of Dominance - in light of the lack of LED, chromatic sphere is significantly worsened. These, while not lands, were just generally synergystic with Academy, Tinker, and the heavy black component in the deck. I am testing 2, and i have found that in this deck they are no worse that Chromatic Sphere was in long, because they mana smooth the Mox-heavy hands and let you keep them. These have set up many turn 2 wins in goldfishing, and they are stronger due to the fact that they stick around even w/ a mox monkey on the board.

3 Tendrils of Agony - I made the list with 2, but i found that while the deck could often chain draw 7's into enough mana for a lethal tendrils, it needed more spells sometimes. Therefor i wanted to up the chances of drawing into more tendrils to kill in a single turn. This is debatable, and im sure you could MD tinker in their stead, but there are those random times where you just and lay a hand of moxen, play a brainstorm, a ritual, etc, and win with the kill in hand.

Again, note that this list is based on 0 real life testing and is only a vehicle for getting discussion on my favorite archetype, combo.

-thefram

---------------------------------------------------
Possible Configuration Changes

-1 MD Tendrils
-1 SB Tinker
+1 MD Tinker
+1 SB Tendrils

-- This Configuration gives an almost exorbitant 19 blue spells to pitch for force of will, and allows for Burning Wish for the win. It is especially potent if the next change is made

-2 Chromatic Sphere
+1 Talisman of Dominance/Helm of Awakening
+1 Helm of Awakening

-- Tinker becomes even better in this configuration. It is likely that the Helm will produce much more mana than sphere, and without LED/Brainstorm action Sphere's use is pretty limited. If you drop the Sphere's Helm+Talisman is nice brokenness.

--------------------------------------------

[BuboniC]

Long was dead before the restrictions, it couldnt handle Chalice+Sphere+Stifle, after the restrictions I strongly doubt it can survive, expecaily in a weaker form.

[thefram]

Ever the pessimist you fail to notice, Bubonic, that this list has Force of Will, and can counter game ending threats from MUD. Stifle was never a real threat anyway, if one played well. Oh, and long was not nearly dead before restrictions.

The problem was that all the combo hate in most metas was directed at Long, and that is how dragon started getting through, since people had little dragon hate in their boards and couldn't beat dragon.

Now that dragon is dominant, the hate will shift leaving a hole for decks like this.

[BuboniC]

That may be true you have force of will- but you dropped duress for it, making the deck weak again, I personally would wait too release this, perfect it, then unleash it in a tournament too several unprepared victims of Tendril's wrath. But you can stifle the whole storm mechanic, and alot of decks use stifle now, Fish, U/R wizards, Keeper, SB in U/B Dragon. If you can host on magicworkstation then PM me and we can hook up for some games. I used too play long and would love too see it come back.

[BreathWeapon]

Using 4 Stifle in Fish I have NEVER Stifled a Tendrils, NEVER. If the Long player is going off you will get Stifle FoWed or Duressed

[Comrade Seraph]

I'd urge people not to play Long for a while too - the sooner the hate against it settles, the sooner it becomes a viable tier 2 deck.

Wouldn't old-school helms of awakening be better in the talisman of dominance slots? particularly since they make chromatic sphere a better play, and allow you to cut at least 1 mana slot.

[thefram]

I wondered about helms for a bit, but the thing is that i think for 2 mana the talisman does essentially the same job, maybe a little less in that it doesnt effect all spells, but it can give you COLORED mana, notably black for the dbl black tendrils, or necro, or bargain, or casting will w/ rituals in the yard.

Again, this is only a vehicle for discussion. Helm of Awakening seems very good and if that is your preference, feel free to play it.
Helm might be good better considering the Time Spiral, but land untappage is just not so great when i only drop 1 land a game most of the time.

Oh and on that note, spiral could be Tinker, but i like Tinker in the board because you can cast the damn thing if you wish for it, and if you have jar in hand/yard its rather pointless.

@ Bubonic - my school firewall stops me from hosting, and i doubt princeton computing services will turn the damn thing off for me to play some games of MWS/APPR. I could ask though.

Now i must go study for my physics midterm which i will consumately fail. YAY
-thefram

[Moridar]

I've heard some talk of using a death wish or 2...  Half your life is nothing if you win the game.  There is no need to have more than 2 tendrils and put the Helms of Awakening in along with something in the side if your opponent uses them against you too easliy.

Another thing.  Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond is a bad choice.  When your in combo mode the last thing your gonna want is another land.  Drop a Glimmervoid and add a Mox Diamond.

Otherwise it looks like a nice deck.

[Tripps]

This is the list I have
//NAME: Untitled Deck
// Other
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Windfall
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Tinker
        1 Timetwister
        3 Force of Will
        2 Meditate
        1 Mind's Desire
        1 Frantic Search
        1 Burning Wish
        1 Cunning Wish
        1 Chain of Vapor
        3 Brainstorm
        4 Duress
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
        1 Necropotence
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        2 Tendrils of Agony
// Mana
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Gemstone Mine
        3 Volcanic Island
        4 Underground Sea
        1 Polluted Delta
        3 Bloodstained Mire
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Brain Freeze
SB:  1 Chain of Vapor
SB:  3 Phyrexian Negator
SB:  2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Force of Will
SB:  1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
 

I haven't tested it a whole lot.

[thefram]

Actually, with 29 colored spells, and 12 land i think the chance of me dropping a Chrome Mox with imprint is much higher than me getting a mox diamond to stick. And both of them have the possibility of just upping the spells count.

The third Tednrils could definitely go, but i liked the ability to just kill someone with the double tendrils action, especially since we dont have the multiple Burning Wishes anymore. I could move 1 tendrils to the board and bring something MD, but what? Tinker?

Anyway, ill post possible changes in the original message.

-thefram

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (thefram @ Dec. 02 2003,23:58)Actually, with 29 colored spells, and 12 land i think the chance of me dropping a Chrome Mox with imprint is much higher than me getting a mox diamond to stick. And both of them have the possibility of just upping the spells count.

Actually, only the Chrome Mox can just up the storm count. You need to pitch a land as part of the cost of playing the diamond.

[thefram]

@ Jacob

My bad, i wasn't sure about the wording, as i havent played a mox diamond since Rectal Agony a few months ago. Thanks for the input Jacob.

what do you think of the deck in general??

Ive tested it with the changes and the MD tinker SB tendrils with the Helm is really good. I think the ideal setting it dropping both the Chromatic Spheres for 1 Talisman of Dominance and one Helm of awakening. That way Tinker has more than just one use, and we have 19 blue spells to pitch to FOW.

I think it might be a misstatment to call this build of TPS Long's replacement. While it does have the capacity to go off turn 1, it is far less likely to do so than long. However, it has responses to the turn 1 hate that comes down, so it is less relevant that it is slower.

-Thefram

[Jakedasnake]

I really think that playing Elvish Spirit Guide is just mandatory. It lets you combo out a full turn sooner and costs no mana investement.

Chrome Mox is most likely a must-include as well; same philosophy, do you care about card advantage when you can just win?

Death Wish is interesting, I would definitely try -1 Tendrils, +1 Death Wish. It's a lot more flexible, and can fetch the Yawgmoth's Will again.

Anyway, my $.02

[BreathWeapon]

Why are you playing Meditate over Diminished Returns MD?

[thefram]

Because I cant wish for meditate, and without 4 Burning Wish, Diminishing returns becomes more risky and less MD worthy. I was even considering dropping the consult for that reason.

-Thefram

Edit
@ Jake, why would you board Y. Will with 2 SB fetching tutors, when i have 4 maindeck tutors? I dont see the logic. The more ways you have of getting the will, the better.

@ ESG
I dont see why, it seems like a replacement for P9, it doesnt pitch to FOW, I dont believe pitching it is a spell, and is totally dead if you cant use 1 colorless mana.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd be tempted to run 4 Death Wish and 1 Burning Wish with Yawgmoth's Will and second Tendril in the SB. Ofcourse, i'm playing some pretty strange stuff right now so take that with a grain of salt.

[Garth One Eye]

I've heard a lot of talk about subbing the LED's with either Elvish Spiritual Guides and/or Cabal Rituals, also, is Spoils of the Vault a possibility.  Any thoughts?

[Garth One Eye]

One other question:  Since it seems that we're moving towards Death Wishes as opposed to Burning Wishes, what are your thoughts on subbing in Glimmervoids for the City of Brass?  That would help preserve some of what has become precious life for this deck (Necro and Bargain).  Thanks...

[Shadow-Walker]

My List:
    Mana Producing/Fixing
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 LED
4 ESG
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Dark Ritual
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy

   Draw/Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Impulse
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Timespiral
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Frantic Search
1 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor

   Protection:
3 Force of Will
3 Abeyance

   Other:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils of Agony

 //Sideboard:
1 Brainfreeze
1 Abeyance
1 Stifle
1 Meditate
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Xantid Swarm
6 Other


Helm of Awakening- Makes spheres insanely good, plus alot of other cards much better.

Impulse- I see no reason to run brainstorm without the tricks with LED, love the 4 card dig.

-1 Bargain
-1 Necro    
-1 Mystical
-1 Vampiric  
I may add Bargain and the tutors back in but there were a number of times that I'd rather they have been another card. Necro is out because I wanted cards to win that turn, not the next.

Fastbond- I thought this was an odd choice but ive been happy with it, turns lands into moxen.

Abeyance- I run these over duress because i figure with all my draw-sevens an opponent has a good chance of drawing more copies of a problem card.

Candelabra- Colorless into colored very nicely and Academy goodness.

[thefram]

How does it seem that we are moving towards death wish? It was suggested by a few people, some liked the idea, and a few people (not only in this thread) said they were unimpressed. If you choose to play death wish, then do what you will with your manabase. I personally, am not playing death wish, because it costs 3 mana just to fetch a powerful card, and it makes sligh a problem matchup, which it should NEVER be.

I have found the list, with 2 tendrils, 1 tinker, 1 helm, 3 talisman to go off turn 2 consistently, much of the time with force backup for the first "draw7". It can and will go off on you turn 1, but is much less likely to do so than long. However, it is incredibly consistant, and significantly easier to pilot than Long.dec.

Oh, and talisman of dominace is excellent, as the deck wants to go off turn 2, and the third mana avaiable turn (and the ability to cast blue or black spells off double mox hands) is incredible.

-thefram

[thefram]

Ok, so last night and today i took the time to actually play the deck against real people rather than gold fish. Heres the deal.

It pretty much has the same matchups as long for the following reason. Force of Will

Against MUD it comes down pretty much to who goes first, since going first you might kill them (10-15% chance) or you just Force the sphere and kill second turn. Going second you can still force, but they get a chance to go for a second Sphere or chalice most of this time. If they dont have a sphere or chalice, then they should have mulliganed, and therefor are bad players. Force of will makes the going second possibility more winnable, so over all TPS is pretty similar against MUD to Long.

Against Control (Keeper, Scepter decks) the game is all about 3 cards.
1. Force of Will
2. Storm Cards (Tendrils, Desire.)
3. Talisman of Dominance

The first two are self explanatory. Talisman is the shit because it hits turn one and wont get eaten by a monkey. It is also great because it is more free mana off desire. If you go first then they will not likely get double blue, and playing around force of will is easier with this deck than long becuase you have them yourself. Also, the double MD tendrils make going draw7-> win fairly simple.

Aggro you just beat. its like solitaire unless they go first and run duress, in which case you force it and kick theyre ass ASAP.

I havent played gro or mask or hulk yet, but i shall try it later after my CS midterm.

-thefram

[Fastbond]

How about something like?

Mana: 35
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Crop Rotation
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Eladamri's Vineyard(or 4 Cabal Ritual or 4 eggs)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells: 17
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk( or egg)
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Meditate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence( or egg)

Kill: 1-4
1-4 Brain Freeze

Remainder: 4-9
Eggs

Sideboard:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Juggernaut
4 Force of Will
3 Crumble

Cards that can use workshop mana:
As few as 12 and as many as 23 depending on substitutions

[thefram]

Um, what does that have to do with the topic at ALL?

Workshop does not fit the list in any way, it wastes a land drop 80% of the time, and it doesn't even stay in the egg theme. And if you have 4 workshops, and moxes why try to make egg academy? I've heard MUD is decent. Egg is strictly budget stuff and even then only mediocre for budget.

Staying on topic and posting viable ideas is tech.

-thefram

[Moridar]

Workshops work with Affinity and artifact based decks.   They don't work well in Long/Neo-Long or heavy color need decks.

Wayne