Most recent sideboard talks have completely written off t...

[Sytupal]

Most recent sideboard talks have completely written off this card to not talk about it.  Graveyard hate consists of


Tormod's Crypt

and

Coffin Purge

~  Why is planar void not run in sideboard?  I have 3 of my slots used just for this card.  If it drops first turn against dragon, it's game over.  They have deeds, yes, but with three in the board another can be dropped rather easily.  especially with swords, and counter backup.  

 Please, someone prove me wrong on this?  I don't see why this is not simply played ALONG with crypt or something.
Late game it sucks, unless you have used a crypt already to start them over again.  especially in a monoblack build with 4 maindeck wretches, it allows you to get a wretch out early game, start removing from gy, and wait for the void to get drawn.
   Ah someone please prove me wrong cus i'd hate to think this card is overlooked?

[fuzzedball]

If you run YawgWin at all, which you would most likely be doing in deck with black, then this makes it a completley dead card. Its not a bad card, its just something that has to be worked around. I do have a question for the rules team. If a dragon hits the grave with a Planar Void in play, is there an oppurtunity to Necromancy it into play?

If they cast Necromancy on your turn, Planar Void won't stop the combo. It will work if they try to go off on their own turn, because triggered abilities (specifically the Dragon's and Void's) go on the stack in APNAP (active player, non-active player) order.
-Matt\n\n

[Crater Hellion]

Yawg Will isn't a problem as you probably would side it out for the Voids anyhow. The problem is that planar void is worse than the other hate. It is in no way game over because with void out, Necromancy can still win. It certainly slows the deck, possibly long enough for you to pull out a win, but crypt is almost definitely a better hate card.

[Toad]

Planar Void is useless against Necromancy (it's a triggered ability), and won't deal with a Dragon already in your graveyard. On the other hand, Coffin Purge is Duress / FOW proof and can deal with 2 Dragons. And if you play Keeper, you can have first turn Tormod's Crypt + fetchland, keeping your fetchland as it is to get a Tundra for Swords if needed.

[pernicious dude]

Planar Void was useless against Necromancy when Dragon killed with an instant.
Now they kill with a permanent that they have to toss into the yard.
If they're doing that with a phasing Bazaar,
they likely won't have a hand to hold the Stifle or the second Necromancy.
If Planar Void comes down on an empty graveyard,
and they don't remove it with Pernicious Deed or whatever,
it's very hard for Dragon to do more than draw, isn't it?

It's the Planar Void controller's turn.
Tap Bazaar.
Draw two and discard three, including Dragon.
Active player Planar Void triggers on Dragon.
Cast Necromancy on response.
Resolve Necromancy.
Dragon appears.
Necromancy and Bazaar and other mana source go away.
Dragon goes out.
Active player Planar Void triggers on Dragon.
Non-active player return to play triggers and resolves.
Necromancy and Bazaar and other mana source come into play.
Put Necromancy on the stack, targetting Dragon hovering above Planar Void.
Tap Bazaar, drawing and discarding Laquatus and something else.
Planar Void triggers twice.
Before you can resove Necromancy on your Dragon,
Planar Void eats your Laquatus.

I'm having a hard time seeing the stack, though.
Has this current rules thread
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....t=12264
got it wrong?\n\n

[Eastman]

Point is they'll just drop deed and blow it up.

[pernicious dude]

Quote Point is they'll just drop deed and blow it up.

...along with your Tormod's Crypt.
This will of course always be after their Xantid Swarm attacks,  
disabling your Coffin Purge.

I know, let's just ask if they're playing Dragon when we sit down,
and if they are,
scoop.

No, I think the point is that you beat Dragon
with a diverse combination of hate and disruption.
There is no one silver bullet.
Planar Void is a good member of that toolbox.
If they're expecting Purges, they may not side in Deeds.

The other point is that many people play the deck without really understanding it,
and people scoop to it without understanding it.
You see lots of vague hand-waving with the words "I win." attached.
At least make them walk through it.

[Jacob Orlove]

If they get Laquatus quickly enough, they can stifle the void to make the fishy dude actually hit the graveyard. then, they can generate their mana and eventually switch over the necromancy and deck you. It's not always going to happen, but it is a possibility.

And, yes, you should always make them play it out. Especially if Bazaar would eat their hand before they get the ambassador. Why StP when they're holding force, if you can wait until they have to pitch it?

[dicemanX]

People time and time again forget about Compulsion, which helps to get around many problem hate cards like Voids or Blessings.

Go off with Necromancy on their turn if they get Planar Void out, and once you generate enough mana you can use Compulsion to find both the Ambassador and a second Necromancy.

[PucktheCat]

This whole thread is focused on how Dragon can still win with a Void on the Board.  That is true, it can win with just about any single card on the board with a bit of luck.

The major advantage of Planar Void, in my mind, is that Dragon's slow-play options are completely eliminated by the Void.  Bazaar becomes what it was supposed to be (card disadvantage).

Getting Compulsion+Necromancy+Dragon to win around the Void is a lot harder when you have no appreciable draw engine.  In case you are counting that is a three card combo that you have to assemble with your tutoring and upwards of 9 totally dead cards in your deck plus 4 Bazaars that are less than useful.

Leo

Edit: clarified\n\n

[dicemanX]

Void comes in post SB, so Dragon has a few more options open. The likelihood of Dragon succeeding depends on which deck is playing the Void. If it's Keeper or Hulk, then we might have a serious problem. If it's Suicide, then things are more manageable. And even Suicide must get Void in their opening hand, because Dragon could play Bazaar and ditch Verdant right away. The control decks,on the other hand, can't run too many graveyard removal effects without major sacrifices of SB space. Space is already taken up by Coffin Purge, which is better in light of Cunning Wish that many control decks run (Keeper and Hulk particularly).

[blue_negator]

I personally never liked planar void, i used tormod's crypt even when i play black.  Planar void doesn't give you the control that tormod's crypt does.  If you drop it late then it's not nearly as useful against certain decks and even if you drop it early it doesn't stop a lot of things.  Since combo decks go off on their own turn and planar void being a triggered ability they usually have the priority to stack the effects in their favor.

[pernicious dude]

Quote Since combo decks go off on their own turn and planar void being a triggered ability they usually have the priority to stack the effects in their favor.

Only their own effects.
Yours go on top of that and resolve first.

[Sytupal]

I'm looking for a conclusion to all this discussion.  My main question is,  what sort of sideboard slots should i hold for just dragon hate?  I'm running a control-ish type of deck ~ not suicide, But posting the list before too much testing is never good.  what dragon hate i do have however is 3 maindecked stp's.      


When building the sideboard what hate should i run?  

Purge, crypt and/or void?  ~ looking for "summing it up" answers


EDIT: stupidity

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're playing a controllish deck, then abusing yawgwill is probably better than playing with the Void. Crypt vs Purge is another issue, and depends on a number of factors, including the presence/absence of cunning wish, how much you're worried about discard, how much black mana you run, how much you're worried about Squee, etc.

[Sytupal]

okay...   planar void vs yawgwill is completely understandable and yawgwill abuse is more worth it.   no wishes,  discard isn't frightening.   okay.  new card has been brought up to me recently...   Honor the Fallen?    better idea than coffin purge at least?  if i was going for cards to keep in hand?

Honor The Fallen   1W
Instant
Remove all creature cards in all graveyards from the game.


EDIT:  honor description

[Moridar]

Tormod's Crypt is simply a superior card.  Costs nothing and you remove target players graveyard from the game by sacrificing it.

It is the simple choice...

Wayne

[BreathWeapon]

Honor the Fallen could be a good C.Wish Trick against Dragon in a deck running Isochron Scepter and not Black. That said, Honor the Fallen is extremely conditional Dragon Hate ... so why would you play it over Stifle? Stifle is even better vs Dragon, its on color and has umpteen uses vs other stuff.

Coughin Purge is awesome for several reasons. One, it can also be C.Wished. Second, Its reusable and stays in your hand, which is important if they side in Deeds. Third, you can Scepter it to avoid Duress/Unmask or circumvent a lack of Black Mana. Fourth, it has legitamate uses elsewhere.

[Sytupal]

I believe that i wrote that i don't play wishes.  That hints towards me not playing blue, which i'm not.  I guess i should have made that more clear.


Honor is very conditional?   In response to dragon's remove effect i'll play swords, okay counter swords, i play honorin response to you choosing laquatus, you have oodles of mana and nothing to do with it.    am i wrong?  Instead of counter back up because of lack of blue im forced to use other means, how is that any different?

[pernicious dude]

Honor is only conditional (I'd say narrow, myself) next to Crypt,
which can hit everything in response to Yawgmoth's Will,
can hit AKs, Deep Anals, and general Tog food,
Roars and Calls,
and whatever else might be laying about waiting to be dug up.

OTOH, they probably won't see it coming.
No Crypt on the board, no B untapped, all clear for take-off?
Oops.

[Matt The Great]

No way, man. If they see W untapped, they're thinking "stp".