It occurs to me that while Landstill abuses Standstill by...

[Shadow-Walker]

It occurs to me that while Landstill abuses Standstill by playing lands instead of spells that another way to achieve this would be to sacrifice it to say Claws of Gix.  The same thing could also apply to Hesitation.  So the goal of this thread is to discuss a deck based on this fact.  The first thing that I thought of was wouldnt this be nice with an enchantress engine? So here is the unpowered list Ive been messing around with. It needs some work but illustrates several ideas and is nice for a budget player:

Chant Control

    Control
4 Hesitation
4 Standstill
3 Seal of removal
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
    
    Other
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
2 Mystic Remora
2 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Claws of Gix
3 Blurred Mongoose

    Mana
7 Island
6 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Elvish Spirit Guide


I found that it performed fairly well the nicest asset being that it draws cards very quickly for a control deck once it gets going.  To discuss some choices:

Stifle- Along with being a great card on its own it can stifle a Hesitation/Standstill when neccessary.

Daze- Im running exploration and fastbond so the alternate cost is nothing to me.

Blurred Mongoose- Yet another card that makes Hesitation not matter.


So besides adding some power what should be changed?  The kill is slow and id like to run more hard counters but I like this concept alot.

Looking at Landstill I tried to combine the 2 decks:

    Mana
1 Strip Mine
4 Wastland
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
3 Forest
3 Faerie Conclave
3 Treetop Village
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall

    Other
4 Hesitation
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Seal of Removal
3 Stifle
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
2 Enchantress's Presence
3 Argothian Enchantress
3 Claws of Gix

I havent tested this list but yet another interesting concept.  If anyone has feedback on either list it would be much appreciated.

[pernicious dude]

First a slight correction.

Quote Stifle- Along with being a great card on its own it can stifle a Hesitation/Standstill when neccessary.

While you can Stifle a Hesitation, you could also just play any spell first and get the same result.
Brainstorm would even have the same casting cost.

You can technically Stifle Standstill, but it will retrigger when you play the Stifle,
and your opponent will still draw three cards.
The Standstill itself doesn't go away until it resolves.

Quote Blurred Mongoose- Yet another card that makes Hesitation not matter.

True, the Hesitation can't counter the Mongoose,
but it will sacrifice itself trying.
Mishra's Factory would leave the Hesitation on the table.

In fact, Mishra's Factory across the board will leave either your Standstill or your Hesitation on the board and eat your Mongoose.

Your Landstillish build solves that issue,
although Landstill runs more manlands than you do,
and you'll have trouble with permanents already on the board.

Hesitation's cool, though.
It might be interesting to run white and Replenish,
get both on the board at the same time.
That'd also get you Decree Of Justice,
so you could cycle Soldiers into play without disrupting either one.

[Shadow-Walker]

Quote While you can Stifle a Hesitation, you could also just play any spell first and get the same result.
Brainstorm would even have the same casting cost.

You can technically Stifle Standstill, but it will retrigger when you play the Stifle,
and your opponent will still draw three cards.
The Standstill itself doesn't go away until it resolves

The idea was to stifle after playing another spell, and i believe that i could choose to stifle either the sacrifice or only the draw 3, although you raise a good point.  Still stifle is nice on its own.  As for Blurred Mongoose the idea is that you can play it through hesitation if you have to not that you should do it on a regular basis, basically if hesitation doesnt get triggered by an opponent it was probably a 1cc time walk.

Quote and you'll have trouble with permanents already on the board

This is true Im working on a build involving replenish and seal of cleansing for this reason, but manabase gets a little screwed.

EDIT:Actually yeah decree would be sweet ill definatly give a build with white consideration.

[Jacob Orlove]

I hope you don't think you'll get 3 cards if you sac a standstill to a claws of gix. That's not how the triggered ability works.

Other than that, I don't see why the claws is in here.

[Sandster]

I will try to answer the Standstill issue, since I better be able to as I will be playing Fish soon.

Standstill is one ability.  If you stifle it, then another copy of the ability will go on stack as Standstill is still in play.  This copy goes on the stack on top of the Stifle which is targeting the previous ability (which will never resolve anyways)  So the stack is:

Standstill trigger
Stifle
Standstill trigger

As such, the Standstill trigger resolves first and someone draws 3 cards.

EDIT: Messed up first time around.

[Binary]

Quote (Jacob Orlove @ Dec. 08 2003,21:42)Other than that, I don't see why the claws is in here.

Neither do I.

My first instinct was "Oh, it's there to sac the Standstill so you can play a spell without giving your opponent the cards."

Then it occurred to me... if you feel the need to cast a spell while your own Standstill is out, that means one of two things: either your opponent is doing something threatening to you with just land (highly unlikely unless all your manlands have been Stripped/Wasted out) or your opponent had things on the table you needed to deal with before you dropped the Standstill.

The former case is somewhat understandable, albeit unlikely. The latter isn't... if you're having to cast spells to deal with threats already on the table, and your own Standstill is out, why the heck did you play Standstill when your opponent already had the advantage on the board?

[Grand Inquisitor]

Not to criticize, but not only have you presented poor uses of hesitation and standstill (along with mis-understanding the rules of standstill), but using these 'stall' cards in an enchantress deck makes no sense.  Every enchantress deck I've seen (except for preacher's field) has relied on the enchant-draw effects to build momentum (more cards->more mana->more cards...)  Your deck is moving in opposite directions.

[Smash]

Hesitation is just too easy to get around. Most of the time, I will gladly play a mox to eat it. So I spent 0 and a card, you spend 1U and a card, at sorcery speed. Seems like huge tempo to me...

[Josti]

Quote (Binary @ Dec. 09 2003,04:48)

Quote (Jacob Orlove @ Dec. 08 2003,21:42)Other than that, I don't see why the claws is in here.

Neither do I.

My first instinct was "Oh, it's there to sac the Standstill so you can play a spell without giving your opponent the cards."

Then it occurred to me... if you feel the need to cast a spell while your own Standstill is out, that means one of two things: either your opponent is doing something threatening to you with just land (highly unlikely unless all your manlands have been Stripped/Wasted out) or your opponent had things on the table you needed to deal with before you dropped the Standstill.

Or your opponent cycle's a decree of justice or something like that.

but furthermore i agree on the unnececary of the claws. those slots can be used for some more viable cards or something like wishes.

[Razvan]

Quote Hesitation is just too easy to get around. Most of the time, I will gladly play a mox to eat it. So I spent 0 and a card, you spend 1U and a card, at sorcery speed. Seems like huge tempo to me...

You are right, but the statement is deceiving.

Normally, you won't have a spare mox in your hand, you would have played it before Hesitation hits the table. If you topdeck one, sure, but that means you are in top-decking mode, while you would get beaten down by the rest of the army.

Incidentally, maybe I missed it, why no Mishra's Factories?

The deck is very cool, actually. Maybe not powerful enough to handle some of the top decks, but it's fun, interesting and a good take on Landstill. Good job.

[pernicious dude]

Quote  i believe that i could choose to stifle either the sacrifice or only the draw 3,

Funny, I never thought of that.
You don't want to stop the sacrifice,
because it will trigger again on the Stifle,
but it sure looks like you can Stifle the draw three.
Orlove, does all that look right to you?
Standstill puts a trigger on the stack which puts another on the stack when it resolves?
I'm going to have to pay more attention resolving Standstill's ability.

Quote basically if hesitation doesnt get triggered by an opponent it was probably a 1cc time walk.

2cc.
I'd generally consider Mystic Remora over Hesitation.

On the Claws issue, this is an important deckbuilding theory thing.
In general, instead of trying to reduce the drawback of a symmetrical effect,
you're far better off designing a deck that uses that drawback as an advantage.

Cabal Therapy's alternate cost is a drawback with Nantuko Shade in your deck.
The answer is not to run Nuisance Engine in Suicide to offset the Therapy's drawback.
The correct answer is to put Therapy in a deck with Academy Rector,
and use that "drawback" to win the game.

[Shock Wave]

Quote Your deck is moving in opposite directions.

I really don't see what edge this deck has over unpowered Landstill. Why you would run creatures and cards that have no inherent synergy with each other is absolutely beyond me. Please explain the following:

a) The purpose of Exploration/Fastbond: Are you trying to make Landstill "accelerate" ? If so, I'll have you know Exploration is useless in any deck even remotely resembling Landstill.

b) Argothian Enchantress + Standstill: If you resolve Standstill, what do you do with your Enchantress? On the other hand, if you resolve Enchantress, what do you do with your Standstill?

c) Enchantress Presense + Standstill/Hesitation: See above..

d) Hesitation: Why? This card is downright awful. It is a 1/1 trade with a random spell you have no control over. BTW, Hesitation + Standstill != a combo.

e) Claws of Gix: These just have no purpose in the deck, and it would be impossible to convince any apt player otherwise.

f) Where is your removal? I'm looking at your decklist but all I see is Seal of Removal.

I really commend you on your innovative approach, but this just isn't going to work.

[Jebus]

Quote (pernicious dude @ Dec. 09 2003,08:02)

Quote  i believe that i could choose to stifle either the sacrifice or only the draw 3,

Funny, I never thought of that.
You don't want to stop the sacrifice,
because it will trigger again on the Stifle,
but it sure looks like you can Stifle the draw three.
Orlove, does all that look right to you?
Standstill puts a trigger on the stack which puts another on the stack when it resolves?
I'm going to have to pay more attention resolving Standstill's ability.

Ok, Here is how Stifle and Standstill work.

Stifle counters an activated or triggered ability.

Standstill has a triggered ability that triggers when a player plays a spell.

Standstill has ONE triggered ability.  You can only target the entire ability with Stifle.  You cannot try to counter half of the triggered ability.

When the triggered ability resovles, you sacrifice Standstill.  If Standstill is sacrificed this way, you draw three cards.

Again, this is all one triggered ability.

Regardless, if you play Stifle in response to the Standstill trigger, it triggers again.  The trigger always resolves first.\n\n

[pernicious dude]

Quote Standstill has ONE triggered ability.  

Yah, you're right, I had a braincramp on the word "then".

"When", "whenever" and "at" are the only words that denote a trigger.

[Shadow-Walker]

Thanks for the rules clarification on standstill i thought it was 2 abilities so now i can lose stifle.
To better explain my idea with this idealy the deck works like this:
1. I play what i can on  my turn finishing with standstill or hesitation.
2. My opponent takes his turn.
3. If the enchantment is still in play on my turn I sacrifice it to Claws of Gix, play some more enchantments and hopefully this allows me to draw another Hesitation/Standstill to end the turn with.

Obviously it doesnt work out this quite this nicely but thats my reasoning for Claws.

[pernicious dude]

Makes more sense with explanation.
That's pretty cool.
Replenish sounds even better in there now.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Shadow-Walker @ Dec. 09 2003,15:50)Thanks for the rules clarification on standstill i thought it was 2 abilities so now i can lose stifle.
To better explain my idea with this idealy the deck works like this:
1. I play what i can on  my turn finishing with standstill or hesitation.
2. My opponent takes his turn.
3. If the enchantment is still in play on my turn I sacrifice it to Claws of Gix, play some more enchantments and hopefully this allows me to draw another Hesitation/Standstill to end the turn with.

Obviously it doesnt work out this quite this nicely but thats my reasoning for Claws.

But isn't that essentially the same effect you get from running Orim's Chant/Abeyance, except with more cards involved?

[Shadow-Walker]

Quote But isn't that essentially the same effect you get from running Orim's Chant/Abeyance, except with more cards involved?

Yes, but when I play standstill/hesitation I draw cards from the enchantresses.  How about:

    Enchantments
3 Hesitation
4 Standstill
1 Words of Wind
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
2 Enchantress Presence
3 Sterling Grove

    Other Spells
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Replenish
3 Claws of Gix
2 Decree of Justice  -or- Stroke+Braingeyser  
    
     Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Island
4 Forest
1 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum

It seems that in a 3-color build i dont have room for seals unless I try an attunement-replenish build which seems very suceptible to graveyard hate.