[Card] Another Weapon for Workshop.dec?

[MaxxMatt]

I spoiled a bit the Darksteel cards and I was astonished when I read the possible text of this card.

Trinisphere -  
Artifact (R)
The total cost of a spell cannot include less than 3 mana. (wording may be different)

In spite of the possible radical or minimal change that can occur in any moment about the real wording of the card, I began to realize what other card in a tipical Workshop.dec could radically need a counter during the first turns of the game when I face them.

NO ONE!


Smockestack could possibly be deadly if for some reasons Stax doesn't explode  
Tangle Wire could be perfectly moved around with some istants on my Upkeep-Draaaw Phase and with some "Land-Mox- Mox" Play
Sphere of Resistence is of course one of the more stalling spell but it isn't always a must counter, because you CAN play spell paying a bit more..

Reading carefully the text proposed by MamaWizards, if this spell resolve on the first turn of the Workshop player you CAN'T play any spell UNTIL turn 3!

I mean... Both you and him have the same drawback, derived from the playing of the card, but anyone knows the name that could usually overcome gaming rules if we talk about artifact.

Mishra's Workshop
Ancient Tomb
All the artifacts that the Workshop player will resolve on his first turn
Other lands that don't come on my mind..

So differently from a perspective of an opponent that is kicked by this spell, usually the Workshop player CAN resolve some spell and COMPLETELY Lock you when you are without any opportunity of doing nothing

The only possibility of a player vs. Workshop with Trinisphere is to drop Land-Land-Land hoping that they would not be Wasted by some effect and THEN, if survived to the Workshop.dec Rush, try to cast A MOX!

Damn.. I can't see a single way of surviving from this Nightmare if resolve in the first, second turn of the game other than Wasting all the lands of the opponent hoping for his manascrew or casting during his 4° Turn EoT a Free-Disenchant ( as Abolish or similars... )

But.. if I'm not able to cast ANYTHING.. can I be alive against Workshop.dec during his 4° turn?

I tested ( me with Keeper ) against a common Lock&Stock.dec or a Stax with MetalWorker that packed in 2 Trinisphere in spite of some removals ( Fire /Ice or Stiffles maindeck ), or with 3 Trinisphere and and 3 Sphere of Resistence
All I can do is FoW this treat  or win the roll dice and Hope for a "ComboModeON" of my control deck. I won a couple of match with Trinisphere in play but only thanx to his screw caused by my 4 StripEffects... not a so called "CommonPlay"

Any thoughts?

[Zherbus]

I missed the actual casting cost somewhere. It reminds me of Chalicing for 2 against control, but with the benefit of shutting off STP and Brainstorm too. I can certainly see getting around it, especially with Decree. If I read this correctly, it's a good thing Rack and Ruin costs 3.

[MuzzonoAmi]

It's an awesome card for Workshop, no doubt. I'm not sure wether I'd rather use these to replace Ankh or Winter Orb in Stacker/Slax, but those seem to be the best things to cut for a card like this. It has amazing synergy with Pillar, meaning that TnT would probably enjoy it as well. Granted, it's destroyed by Rack and Ruin and DUst to Dust. But who plays Dust to Dust? So there's one commonly used card that removes it, and it requires a second target to be effective. I see it being better in the more aggressive Workshop decks because they're more compatable with non-artifact threats like Covetous Dragon.

[MaxxMatt]

@Zherbus: You are right. During game 2 you can hold in your hand R&R until round 3 when you finally can resolve it.
The problem IMHO, is only this one: You can add a 4x of it in a Workshop .dec that

Nullifiy combo better than anything else ( Land-Land-Land --> and then finaly MOX! )
Nullify the first 3 turns of a Control deck ( anyone in your mind is a possible candidate .. )
Nullify the first 3 turns of every aggro letting him to cast a mox on his first turn avaliable ...

uhm..
Maybe I was unlucky, maybe it is a sad future reality.. but Workshop.dec usually are able to cast a lot of things while you use your turns waiting for the possibility to cast something... .

[MuzzonoAmi]

uhm..
Maybe I was unlucky, maybe it is a sad future reality.. but Workshop.dec usually are able to cast a lot of things while you use your turns waiting for the possibility to cast something... .

But those decks don't have to cast anything else other than said threat. They certianly don't have to make it Rack and Ruin-able by laying another artifact. They can do it, but why would they?

[Smmenen]

The degeneracy of this card comes not just in that it is, to some extent, chalice and sphere in one, but in that in combination with the already growing list of incredibly lock parts like Sphere, Trinosphere is a savage beating.  Trinosphere plus Sphere means that pitching Force of Will costs FOUR.  

Helloooooo MUD.  Goodnight Workshop.

Steve

[leviat]

I strongly suspect that if this is in fact for real, then it's effect will be along the lines of:

Trinisphere
Artifact
A spell's converted mana cost is increased to at least 3 mana. (So if a spell would normally cost , it now costs ).

While certainly a useful card, I think this would prevent it from being pushed into the realm of broken. Plus, the above effect would make sense with the casting cost of the artifact as well as not being strinctly superior to [card]Sphere of Resistance[/card] and [card]Chalice of the Void[/card].

Note that this would not make [card]Force of Will[/card] cost an addition .

[Jacob Orlove]

This would be the first time that anything ever changed the CMC of a card (excepting copy effects like Clone). Altering the total cost seems much more likely--and that would affect force.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I would be surprised if this was for real. The ability to play it on the first turn after you play your own mana acceleration is just too unbalancing, and a cost of three isn't enough to deter that play. The other player may as well be skipping their first two turns (obviously not precisely since they draw and play land, but close enough), and I can't see R&D ignoring that danger.

[Nameless]

I strongly suspect that if this is in fact for real, then it's effect will be along the lines of:

Trinisphere
Artifact
A spell's converted mana cost is increased to at least 3 mana. (So if a spell would normally cost , it now costs ).

While certainly a useful card, I think this would prevent it from being pushed into the realm of broken. Plus, the above effect would make sense with the casting cost of the artifact as well as not being strinctly superior to [card]Sphere of Resistance[/card] and [card]Chalice of the Void[/card].

Note that this would not make [card]Force of Will[/card] cost an addition .

I suspect you are very correct here.  I'm also being told that the card doesn't add converted mana cost, it actually adds colorless mana to the converted CC.

In other words, it wouldn't convert CC really, as opposed to colorless mana cost.

"A spells colorless mana cost is at least ."

So a Lightning Bolt would cost , while a Disenchant would also cost {W}.  A FoW, on the other hand, wouldn't be changed at all, because it already has colorless in it's mana cost, and could still be casting using the 'alternate' casting cost.  I've heard this from a very reliable source, so the bottom line is...

We can't start talking about how good it even might be really until we are sure what it does.  Since, if it does as I've heard then it won't be nearly as useful.

[MaxxMatt]

@Muzzonoami. The goal of Workshop.dec is to lock the opponent with various methods.

Look at the situation during in which you only resolve a single threat ( the "3Sphere"). If you don't pack distruption after the third turn, Disenchant would hurt it as well as any other spell that doesn't require the double target.
Disenchant would cost 3
Abolish would cost 3
Crumble would cost 3.

So the goal is NOT to stop on resolving a threat, but to get some extra time from the 3Sphere via conventional Workshop Strategy.

Let me show you a common scenario.

1° Turn
Workshop-->3Sphere ( resolve... GULP!!!! )
2° Turn
You, nothing but a land
3° Turn
Metalworker... You can't even counter it! No matter what you have!
4° Turn
You, nothing but a land
5° Turn
You, acquire a lot of mana from the worker. Too much for any opponents  strategy. You can do it with consistency because your only high costing spell is the spell that don't need too much with a resolved Metalworker. (I'm talking about a plethora of Mox and mana acceleration and OldSphere..)

I simply think that it is an axe to all the control and aggro strategies that could not it from being resolved.

Should anyone pack FoWs in their decks and hope to win the dice roll or to have it (or better) in hand? And what about the possibility of being TOTALLY locked by turn 2 or 3 turn? Not a perspective that have a "game" as we inted Magic in head...

@Smennem: As a joke I built a deck with one Workshop and I replaced them with Ancient Tomb. If I face a Wasteland-light deck I win not only with the same consistency, but some times the Ancient Tombs were more useful than Workshop (it hadn't the drawback of not being utilized for abilities and costs as everyone knows....)

The only deck that has been a little resilient to this strategy has been decks with 5 Strips and denial (that equilize the 3SPhere...) or decks that pack MORE lands than 26 or has similar strategies...

New January Combo: Metalworker AND/OR Workshop with 3Sphere...

Why has WotC began to hate on combo and control?

Leviat -- Cleaned, you've been warned in the past for spelling and grammar. English is obviously not your primary language but could you at least try to run your posts through MS Word first? My head hurts...

EDIT : Ops... My bad. I wrote those lines at the University wothout re-reading them after writing.  

[Zherbus]

I'm telling you now, while amazing, this is shaping up to be overrated a bit. Another bomb for sure, and a hefty one at that, but I don't think it's going to be so backbreaking that combo and control are auto-wins or even near auto-wins.

[DavidHernandez]

I think the **actual** wording on this thing will determine if it's really broken or not.

if it reads "All spells that cost less than 3 mana are countered", then that is strong...

dave.

[Kowal]

It's just a Nether Void that's a little less powerful and a little less expensive.

Just like Chalice and Scepter, I remain unconcerned.

[Kerz]

We can't speculate how good or bad it is until we get an exact wording. It could be REALLY good, or just mediocre, depending on your interpretation.

[MaxxMatt]

http://tbm.mbitgames.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1992&sid=06f30642e35acb999238292f460bb3bc


I read in the link above here the Darksteel FaQ and the wording of Trinisphere is that one:

---------

Trinisphere

Artifact
As long as Trinisphere is untapped, each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play. (Additional mana in the cost may be paid with any color of mana or colorless mana. For example, a spell that would cost to play costs to play instead.)

* Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.

* Even with a cost reducer in play, spells can't cost less than three mana to play.

* If a spell costs at least three mana due to additional costs, such as kicker costs, that's fine.

* You still need to pay any additional nonmana costs the spell has, such as sacrificing a creature or discarding cards.

* Playing a creature with morph face down already costs three mana, even though the converted mana cost of the face-down spell is zero, so Trinisphere normally doesn't modify the total cost of a face-down creature spell. However, if Dream Chisel is reducing that cost while Trinisphere is in play, you'll still have to pay three mana for the spell.

--------

What are your additional feelings and thoughts about it?

[Zherbus]

This wording makes it far less useful, but still full of potential.

[CF]

I believe that if this card sees print it will be the suggested "As long as Trinisphere is untapped, the cost to play any spell is at least 3. (Add colorless mana to the mana cost to increase its overall cost to 3.)

Moxes will cost .
Mystical, Brainstorm and Ancestral will cost etc.
FoW will cost either {U} or pitch + 3 - or be unchanged.

Nontheless, if this resolves during the first turn any nonstax deck is severely crippled in the early game while it poses little to no drawback for the player who just cast it. Thus, it is vastly superior to Sphere of Resistance early on.

Cripple the opponent's early game with no drawback to yourself? How can one possibly _overrate_ that effect? Seems vicious to me.

--
Chris

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Well, it hoses FoW pretty well. This is Sphere of Resistance on crack for any Stax/MUD-variant. It does effect most spells anyone might play against you aside from mirrors, while leaving your spells unharmed. Workshop will most probably make a comeback to just about any t8. We'll see how tough it gets.

[MaxxMatt]

Toying a bit with old Welder MUD build ( simply viewing at the MeanDeck's Stax in th eTMD's Primer ), I assembled this deck.

***(I bolded the few changes at the previous deck)***


// Mana sources -- 23
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
6 Mountain
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus

// Lock and disruption -- 22
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

// Utilities -- 5
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar

// Creatures -- 10
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
1 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Triskelion
1 MindSlaver

The number of Must Counter spells on the first or secondo turn of game is increased and the number of artifacts is the same of the old StaxBuild
 
The only Spells that need less than 3 mana to be played are only Welders and Sphere ( excluding the fast mana acceleration), so the use of Trinisphere doesn't touch you at all, compared to the real pain for your opponent.

The strategy is the same of the old build.
Coupling a  Mana Denial Play AND Trinisphere is a valid way to nullify opponent resources. So a better lock is easily obtained.

Powder Keg and Winter Orb were used to deny opponent of mana resources. Trinisphere will do the same job but in a better way.
After resolving one of them, the other 2 Trinishere would began dead draw, so I don't feel comfortable on adding the 4th in the maindeck.

I change a bit the number of the Winners. Adding more Winners in a deck without manipolation is a stronger choise IMHO, but of course after resolving only one of them I usually win without the others.

If I can explode on permanents count ( as the old build usually do ), I didn't found an difficult to keep the Trinisphere untapped. Metalworker works perfectly producing free mana and letting you to cast anything even in the first three turns of play with a Trinisphere in play, while your opponent is totally locked.


This card, even if it cannot be considered Format-Distorting, will shift up Stax.dec to the Heaven of the BetterDecks in our format.


-----------SIDE NOTE------------------------------------------------------------

Sundering Titan
8
Artifact Creature (R)
When Sundering Titan comes into play, choose one land for each basic land type, then destroy those lands.
When Sundering Titan leaves play, choose one land for each basic land type, then destroy those lands.
7/10


This one seems another tool for Workshop.dec.
In a stax build with only Mountain, the rate between the loss of you lands compared to the loss of opponent's lands is usually of 1:X, where X is the number of multicolored lands of the opponent ( 0<X<6 )
 
So you usually lose from zero land to one land, while the opponent could lose a lot. Multicolored control lose more land than you without exceptions

What about the Titan as finisher?
Can it replace Karn as finsher as well?


My 2 cents


NB: As usual, sorry for my English      
EDIT: Semantic note

[Smmenen]

Well, it hoses FoW pretty well. This is Sphere of Resistance on crack for any Stax/MUD-variant. It does effect most spells anyone might play against you aside from mirrors, while leaving your spells unharmed. Workshop will most probably make a comeback to just about any t8. We'll see how tough it gets.

Precisely.  Note this HOSES madness as well.

Steve

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, it hoses FoW pretty well. This is Sphere of Resistance on crack for any Stax/MUD-variant. It does effect most spells anyone might play against you aside from mirrors, while leaving your spells unharmed. Workshop will most probably make a comeback to just about any t8. We'll see how tough it gets.

Precisely.  Note this HOSES madness as well.

Steve

Well, it hoses the rootwallas, and, if you run them, the burn and the counter. Arrogant is still 2G. BTW, this thing does make 4x Root Maze MD that much more useful :D

[Smmenen]

Yes, and since survivaling into 4 rootwallas is so key versus Wire/Stax, you are now denied that.  Point is, its much easier to lock madness down than it ever has been.

It will be hard for Aggro to escape the POWER OF SPHERE.

Steve

[Matt]

It will be hard for ANYTHING to escape this thing. Against a lot of Vintage decks, this is a double-Stone Rain.

On the other hand, Fire/Ice's stock just went through the roof.

Something with Yavimaya Granger's ability to suck lands directly into play might see some use with this. Also, land-based acceleration (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors) should be great as a way to combat this, as they will still cost zero to accelerate you (unlike a 3cc Mox).

[MuzzonoAmi]

I think this'll even make budget workshop decks serious threats. I'll be reconfiguring all my decks to include this baby tomorrow. I think the real challenge will be what to cut for it. I'm thinking Winter ORb at the moment, but possibly Ankh as well.

[CHA1N5]

Toying a bit with old Stax Build

Semantic note:  the list you have posted is Welder MUD, not Stax.

Against a lot of Vintage decks, this is a double-Stone Rain.

Don't you mean double Time Walk?  


This card is going to end up just like Chalice:  it is not an auto-W, despite what people will initially think.  Yes, like Chalice, you may actually get someone to scoop on the first turn every once and a while.  More importantly: like Chalice, it will only fit in a few decks and it will turn out to be a regular card just like the rest.

Don't be afraid... be ready.

[MaxxMatt]

Chains:

IMHO, the impact of 3Sphere in the game is far different from a Chalice because it affect the early game mechanic of any Combo-Contro-Aggro deck build until now, totally blocking his resource.

If the wording would have not included the need of applying the 3 mana even on free spells as FoW or Artifact Hate ( Crush, Abolish.. ), so you would have been perfectly right about not seeing this card as Broken and Game Breaking.

But a Workshop.dec build can easily abuse of it simply with with ManaDenial and their locking artifact spells in a not simmetrical way.


"Pre 3Sphere Scenario".
First Opponent's Turn: Workshop + Mox + "AnyLockingArtifact"
My First Turn: I can play anything, even if with some difficulties
Second Opponent's Turn: Land + Smockstack
My Second Turn: I can play around his artifacts with Istants and Mana Denials.

"Post 3Sphere Scenario".
First Opponent's Turn: Workshop + Mox + 3Sphere
My First Turn: Best card that I can play is FETCHLAND then pass the turn.
Second Opponent's Turn Land + Smockestack
My Second Turn --> Or I play Mana Denial ( 5 Strips ) trying to screw him and establishing in this way some sort of simmetry in play or I HAVE NOTHING TO DO: I SCOOP.

You can see how easily this lock used by a "3Sphere-Based-Workshop.dec" is nearly unbeteable. His engine is nearly untouched too( Welders and Spheres are the only spell that are influenced by the 3Sphere ).

I hope about his rapid Restriction, without touching Mishra's Workshops at all.

[Toad]

Trinisphere looks like a great card, but it also makes you more vulnerable to Wastelands, because you can't rely on topdecked Moxens as mana sources if you lose your first Workshop unless you have 3 other mana sources on the board. And there are a lot of hard matchups where this card is far from being stellar (namely, all the other Workshop based decks).

You can see how easily this lock used by a "3Sphere-Based-Workshop.dec" is nearly unbeteable.

Waste the Workshop ?

I hope about his rapid Restriction, without touching Mishra's Workshops at all.

Please please please please ....
Let's just don't start again this way. The same has been said 3 months ago about Chalice of the Void and/or Isochron Scepter. None of these deserve restriction. Me and my Mean Deck teammates have done intensive testings of this card in various Prison builds, and it's far from being broken

[MaxxMatt]

@Toad
I'm with you when you say not to restart talking about restrictions... Ok, May Bad. It isn't needed.
I haven't sayed a single word about restricting CotVs or Scepters in the past because I have your same feelings about them. They should remain unrestricted.

But...

I'm not with you when you talk about this card as a NonBroken One.
I argued about various scenarios that revealed at least his great impact during the game.
Why are you results so different?
Against what do you test?

Waste the Workshop ?

I have said the same thing in other posts. Only massive danial could compete with 3Sphere in play.
The problem is that there are other non conventional lands ( Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors... ) that could be placed side by side with Workshop, that will enable you to break the simmetry reestablished by the use of your/mine Wastelands.

Usually I can use less StripEffects in my deck than Workshop-likeLands in opponent's decks .. Do you agree with me about it?

Of course the problem of a 3Sphere in play repeat it-self even in the middle game in a different manner. All the near unplayble cheap search that usually control decks packs to find answers before scooping would not be so useful with a Sphere in play.
 


[/quote]

[Zherbus]

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