[Deck] A possible new archtype or a flop? "Time Chasm&

[b_1e1_n]

Combo
3 Time Vault
3 Glacial Chasm
1 Sacred Ground

This is how it works.  Get Time vault out, and glacial chasm, and if you fear any sort of LD, sacred ground.  Once these cards are out, put 60 counters on time vault (or however many turns you will need to deck your opponent, say 10000 if you want) and sit back and watch.

Search
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Impulse
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

Utility:
4 Abeyance
4 Force of Will
1 Crop Rotation

Mana:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 City of Brass
2 Tropical Island
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Sacred Ground

[theorigamist]

I don't think this deck will work, nor do I think it's worth taking the time to fix it up.  I can't think of a deck that doesn't run at least 1 Strip, and that's all it takes to beat this deck.  You didn't even pack Stifles for this most obvious weakness, but I don't think it would make much difference.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Disenchant would kill you, would it not?  Since your opponent would have 30 turns at least to find a disenchant, wasteland, strip mine, or whatever, I don't think this will work.  Sorry.

[wonkey_donkey]

Didn't they re-errata time vault or something, too? Not sure.
Much as I'd love to see a deck like this work, it's not going to. Sorry. Allowing your opponent to draw their entire deck can't be an advisable plan.

[Purple Hat]

the chasm also only prevents damage so it doesn't work at all against combo.  dragon will eventually draw ancestral to make you draw a card with no library, tendrils is loss of life, not damage, and if people are still running academy they make you draw some arbitrarily large number of cards and you still loose.  that is totally aside from strips, and stifles and disenchant effects which your opponent will almost certainly have in game two even if they don't have it in game one.  kinda a cool idea for semi casual play though.  probably fun to mess around with but certainly not competative in the tournament sense.

[Matt]

What if we change Glacial Chasm to [card]Solitary Confinement[/card]?

[colder]

That's still quite a tenuous hold.  You'd have to load your deck up with counters, waiting for someone to take out the Solitary Confinement.

This is still a rather interesting concept.

[b_1e1_n]

Combo
3 Time Vault
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Chalice of the Void

The rest would remain the same.

Any input?

No one really maindecks enchantment hate these days, and any SB'd enchantment hate can easily be rendered useless via chalice.

[Misemaster]

Wouldnt this deck be sort of unfesiable at a tournament?  I mean if you do set up the combo someone could be an asshole and not scoop play out all the turns and make the game a draw. Also, 1 chalice will not be drawn realiably enough to stop all enchament hate.

[Jacob Orlove]

A pair of Sterling Groves would stop nearly everything, though.

[b_1e1_n]

3 Time Vault
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove

4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Impulse
1 Frantic Search
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Regrowth
1 Timetwister

4 Abeyance
4 Force of Will

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mana Vault
7 SoLoMox

[mtgmooner]

I fail to see how your deck will realiably answer any threats your opponent may put on the board in the early game.  You have to remember that in Type one, even a tempo loss of one turn can be the difference between a win and a loss.  I see that you do play with some ways to slow an opponent ie. force of will, but i think the lack of redundancy in your combo pieces will really cost you a lot of games by utilizing the mechanics (ie. pitdching cards), that make your answers viable for the deck.

To fix the deck, Im not sure i can really give a whole lot in the way of sugggestions.  I think the combo that is used to "imprison" your opponent is not even close to reliable enough or foolproof to give you the consistency you need to be a competitor at the type one level.  When playing a deck that needs multiple pieces to lockdown an opponent, the numberof cards that do about the same thing need to be maximized to give any sort of reliability to your deck.

If however, you do have a penchant for playing the lock type of deck, I think there are some excellent options, including the mud, stax, slavery, and george w. bosh decks that have excellent synergy with the cards that rae fundamental to the lock.  the primers and articles that are posted in the Vintage forum give very detailed analysi (?) of the tier one prison decks.

[b_1e1_n]

What are president decks?  I've head of a Bush deck but never saw one.

[theorigamist]

Solitary Confinement makes the deck mildly more interesting, but decks do run some enchantment hate.  2 Sterling Grove aren't enough, because 1) You would need both for a hard lock, and 2) They are tutors for your lock pieces, and should be a 4-of.

Theoretically, you would be much better off using Genesis or Squee with the lock than Time Vault.  That way you could keep playing spells on your turn, and it allows you to untap every once in a while (trying to load your deck with counters, as somebody suggested, would not work because you wouldn't have the mana to use them after the first one or two).  Realistically, however, graveyard hate will rape Genesis/Squee.  In other words, the metagame is not really allowing this deck to exist in its most powerful form, even if it would work.  I think a Time Vault version is strictly inferior to a Squee/Genesis recurring engine.

My second thought was that this deck could quickly become a much more redundant, consistent lock deck than it is.  For that, you would need:

- 3-4 of each lock element
- Some form of permanent card drawing so you can draw cards under a Confinement
- Mana acceleration, so you can lay as many lands as possible to protect Confinement as early as possible
- Protection

I could see something like:

Lock: 12
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Draw/Tutor: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Compulsion (this is the first permanent card drawing I could think of, but I'd prefer something that actually draws cards instead of just trading; ideas?)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Time Walk

Condoms: 8
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

Manabanana: 26
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand

[Moridar]

I don't think you get infinite turns.

Time Vault

Color= Artifact  Type= Artifact  Cost= 2 A(R)/B(R)/U(R)  
Text (ABU+errata): ~this~ comes into play tapped. ; ~this~ doesn't untap during your untap step. ; Skip your next turn: Untap ~this~ and put a time counter on it. ; ,Remove all time counters from ~this~: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability only if there's a time counter on ~this~. [Oracle 2001/08/24]

Before the errata, there were a lot of tricks to getting infinite turns. The errata stops all of them. [D'Angelo 1998/02/03]
You can play the untap ability any time you can play an instant. It causes you to skip your next turn. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
If you untap this Vault more than once or untap multiple Vaults, then you will end up skipping multiple turns. In other words, the skipping is saved up until you skip that many turns. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
If you try to use the Vault before you skip a turn, then you will end up skipping the newly created turn. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
If multiple "extra turn" effects resolve in the same turn, take them in the reverse of the order that the effects resolved. [CompRules 2002/02/20 - 300.6] See Rule 300.6.
Type 1 tournaments (see Rule 801) banned this card from 1994/03/23 to 1996/04/01. It was made legal again when errata was issued. It was previously on the restricted list from 1994/01/25 to 1994/03/22.
Extended tournaments (see Rule 803) have always banned this card.
Note - Also see Skipping a Phase, Rule 419.6e.
Note - It is of type "Artifact" and not "Mono Artifact".

Wayne

[Pern]

I don't think you get infinite turns.

The deck doesn't propose to get infinite turns.
It plans to skip more turns than the opponent has cards in his deck.

4 Compulsion (this is the first permanent card drawing I could think of, but I'd prefer something that actually draws cards instead of just trading; ideas?)

Compulsion does draw cards once you find a Squee.
Squee/Compulsion is an old established engine.
It's slow and mana intensive, however,
and has been replaced by Squee/Bazaar of Baghdad
most places it was used.

Landstill runs four Nevinyrral's Disk in the main deck.
It also runs a minimum of five ways to kill the Chasm
after destroying all your non-land permanents.
I'm starting to see the Disk in other control decks as well.
Sterling Grove isn't the protection it once was,
especially in a deck with no Replenish.

[theorigamist]

With Solitary Confinement you need multiple Squees to make Compulsion actual card drawing.  Bazaars also need multiple Squees to work under Confinement.

I didn't think this kind of a lock would be strong enough to use, and I hadn't even thought of Disk.  Or Deed, for that matter, which is also used in a bunch of top tier decks.  The Chasm is irrelevant, because the deck seems to have switched to Confinement, but after your comments I believe more strongly that right now is the wrong time for a deck like this to flourish.

[Nevyn]

Problems for such a deck:

Losing game 1 loses the match, so you have less margin for error than a typical deck.

You are completely reliant on them having no answer MD or SB to confinement or in consistently getting a 3 card combo on the table and them not having mass removal.

You can't actually beat a deck with a method of recursion as you rely on themselves to draw cards until they die.

"Give you the rest of the turns" decks have been tried now and then before, but they typically include some sort of lock other than damage prevention (ie: stasis/root maze or smokestack) so that even if the opponent draws an answer they can't play it. Even those decks have had very limited success.