Playing red in Dragon: Shivan Hellkite.

[eppynnon]

Hi.

I, like many others, have been toying around with Dragon lately. For some reason, the whole Blessing/Root Maze fad hasn't really hit here in Finland, but it will. Eventually. Platinum Angels have been slowly coming up as well. This is what me and some friends of mine found:

Shivan Hellkite
Urza's Saga - Rare
Creature: Dragon - 5RR
5/5 Flying
1R: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

And its "kinda" reprint, Vampiric Dragon.

Hellkite doesn't do anything against Root Maze, but it kills Platinum Angel and evades Gaea's Blessing. So Deeds will still stay in the SB. It's also a 5/5 Flying fatty that can be reanimated as an early blocker. The drawback is obvious: You need to have a load of red mana. This means more non-basic lands. (Or a Mountain...   )

This is what I've been playing:

4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Shivan Hellkite
4 Squee

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Buried Alive
R Entomb

4 Animate Dead
1 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy

R Demonic Tutor
R Vampiric Tutor
2 Tainted Pact <---   These be Spoils as soon as I get hold of some...

4 Duress
1 Unmask

4 ESG
4 Dark Ritual
R Sol Ring
R Mana Crypt
R Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Swamp

And a rather common SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Symbiotic Wurm/Verdant Force

As you can see, no power in my possession

I'm afraid I haven't met too many people who play Blessings or Mazes, but the few Angels and Blessings were quite nicely dealt with by the Hellkite. Admittedly, anyone packing five Strips can be a hard match, but so far the two Badlands have been good for me. Their count could go up, if: 1) Red would have anything to offer for the sideboard/deck altogether 2) I'd meet a person who'd strip both my Badlands. Usually people just waste that Bazaar.

Do you have any experiences with the Hellkite/similar cards? It's time to share, Share, SHARE!

Thanks for reading,
Erkka

[Lord of the Goats]

dragon can still beat platinum angel very easily by using the double animate trick. platinum angel is used almost exclusivly in tnt. tnt also runs triskillion.  trisk can be used to kill an opponent in the same way mog fanatic can (see the primer for a more detailed explaination). just make sure to kill the trisk with it's own counter.  

as for blessing, that's a bit tough because you don't run blue so you lost access to stifle and ancestral.  however you can still run a sliver queen which will create billions of tokens when you go off. tokens don't care about blessing very much and sliver queen doesn't require colored mana to activate.

have you considered a hermit druid based dragon build? hermits set up your combo very easily and make you less reliant on bazzar

[Petko]

Shivan Hellkite was an idea that Peter brought up and we talked about it for a bit. Adding a Red splash to Dragon also allowed for some possible sideboard options and even running Cabal Therapies main deck, which Squees can now be hardcasted to be sacrificed for the Flashback cost.

However, it was decided that the splash was not worth it. If Shivan Hellkite was going to be used as a kill card, then Red mana was needed to 'go off'.

Platinum Angel is DAMN expensive and shouldn't be in play by the time you should combo off. And it's not like your opponent can Weld it out consistantly before you win.

The Gaea's Blessing dilemma is taken care of by Sliver Queen, as mentioned by LotG.

[TheFram]

Red doesnt offer anything other than Shivan Helkite. I dont see the point of ruining the mana base for 1 card, when you could easily metagame or play the deck differently to get around the hate you mention.

[Astro]

Lets not forget, splashing red also gives you the option to run Wheel of Fortune.  However, if red offered something more, in the way of either disruption or search I would consider it more viable.

On another note I will commend your choice of running the deck nearly mono black.  I find too often that powerless or partially powered players try to splash blue, which is a mistake unless you run a full set of jewelry to support a speedy Intuition.  Otherwise Ritual + Buried Alive is simply more effective.

Personally, I'd be a little paranoid with only running 5 disruption spells.  I'd either bump up the Unmask count or consider running Xantid Swarms main deck retroactively upping the total disruption to 6-8.  Keep your options open though, mono black seems not shitty in powerless Dragon builds.

[RoadTrippin]

I've been working on several budget Dragon decklists. Red adds a lot more than Shivan Hellkite. Take this list just as an example of cards red adds. I'm glad I tried it out, it was an experience worth my time.

4 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Shivan Hellkite
4 Gamble (again, this list was completely experimental, and I liked this card)
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Duress
2 Spoils of the Vault
1 Entomb
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Buried Alive
2 Defense Grid
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Swamp

[sWoRdFiSh`]

platinum angel costs 7 mana.
slap it in any workshop-based deck and that would ONLY cost 7 mana.
it's either your opponent would lock you down early and bad or goblin welders would be there to save his day.
i have a team mate who plays workshop while i am running dragon.
OR
dragon would just be dragon and you'll go off faster than he can ruin your day with spheres (both th eoriginal and the new one).
nevretheless, it's rather misleading to implicitly say workshop or prison decks are easy match-ups.

Lord of the Goats:
what exactly do you mean by defeating an opposing workshop-based deck with the double naimate trick?
either i don't know something or we're using the same terms for different techs.
i know i only use it to seal games in a draw.

Astro:
splashing blue doesn't only give you access to intuition, time walk or ancestral recal though they are some of the obvious choices.
the very reason why we choos to splash blue is because of gaining access to Force of Will a.k.a. "the glue".
you should also not forget that budget players use compulsion too for bazaare subtitutes or bazaare complementaries.
in some cases, careful studies are also being considered.
in a nutshell, splashing of blue is a very intelligent choice and not as "pointless" as it may seem.

RoadTrippin':
i'm very interested with the way the splash of red is doing.
wheel is an obvious choice, as well as REB's perhaps in the SB.
i only has 4 of it but has yet to try gamble.
please be more specific with your playtest data with regards to that card or better yet, the whole idea of splashing red. (i.e. strengths and weaknesses)

[Razvan]

Not that it will happen, but I was considering a red splash in it just in case the combo cannot go off, and you need to "God-forbid" cast the Dragon to win.

Laquatus is superior, since the deck runs blue anyhow, and giving it more non-basic lands to include land can make it more vulnerable to Wastelands and Stripmines (MORE vulnerable, since it already is), and you need blue for the Compulsions. But, if you feel crazy, why not? It would definately circumvent the Platinum Angel problem, should it exist.

[Petko]

I agree that the inclusion of Red doesn't offer much. Shivan Hellkite is cute, but it simply doesn't warrent a weaker mana base and needing Red mana to go off if the Hellkite is to be of any use.

I think that Mono Black Dragon is probably your best bet if you're missing the Power. However, you do have Bazaars which is absolutely fantastic. I agree with you Astro, in that without the help of Moxen acceleration, Intuition is very slow. Mono Black versions are also less susceptible to hate. This is a very important point as there is so much hate out there right now and Dragon is an exceptionally easy deck to hate out.

Looking over your build, eppynnon, I would suggest that you run some Verdant Forces main deck. I think three would be a good number. This allows you to work a little better against all the Swords to Plowshares and Stifle hate that you risk when going off with Worldgorger Dragon. I would also recomment running a bit more disruptuiong than 4 Duress and 1 Unmask. I would personally go with four copies of Cabal Therapy myself, as it seems like the perfect fit with Verdant Force. I'm not exacly sold on Buried alive; doesn't seem to optimal for me, well, at least at four copies of the card main deck. I would rather opt for 4 Spoils of the Vault to fetch Bazaar for your discard outlet. Try and get a hold of Bebe; I really liked his Mono Black Dragon deck.

But Workshop decks not necessaily lock down Dragon decks, sWoRdFiSh`. Remeber, that regardless if you have Tangle Wires out against me, I can still combo out during my upkeep; Necromancy can be played as an Instant. As long as I have a Bazaar out and sufficient mana to cast Necromancy, I should be okay. The only real big threat I see is Wastelands and Strip Mine against Bazaar. Spheres can also get a bit annoying.

I don't think you really know what you're talking about, sWoRdFiSh`. Force of Will is definately not the reason Blue is played in Dragon. In fact, you couldn't be more wrong. Intuition and Lim Duul's Vault have to be by far the greatest reason for the inclusion of Blue. Compulsion is also huge. Intuition lets you set up your draw engine; it also sets up the combo. An Intuition for two Squees and a Worldgorger Dragon is gamebreaking if you have a Bazaar out. Intuition also serves for fetching Bazzar itself. However, against some decks packing a full compliment of Strip Mine and Wastelands, it may be a risky move; however, I've done it so many times at the end of my opponent's turn with the intention of going off during my own turn. Also, if you're comboing off with only a Dragon in your graveyard and no Bazaar in play, you can respond to a loop with Intuition to put a critter in your graveyard and stop the Dragon loop. Most versions run Ambassador in addition to an alternate kill; such as Sliver Queen. Some even run Plated Slagwurm or Verdant Force main.

You no idea how busted Vault is; fetching Bazaar with a Squee or two right after is absolutely huge. It is by far the best tutor in the deck. The conventional action against most decks is to let the tutor resolve and counter what they search for. However, this is definately not the case with Dragon, as what you search for cannot be countered and will cause some SERIOUS problems if not dealt with.

Compulsion is Bazaar number five to seven. It is another draw engine, although it does not produce as stellar results as Bazaar when used in conjunction with Squee. Compulsion also allows you to mill through your deck during combo; unlike Bazaar, you will not be reduced to zero cards in hand; this is extremely important in builds that run Force of Will.

Speaking of Force of Will, it's definately not "the glue" in this deck. Although it does serve as a nice way to just say "NO" against other decks, especially those packing much hate, I found that at times I didn't have a Blue card in hand to pitch plus it's quite useless in protecting your combo when going off, as you will have zero cards in hand when your opponent decides to Stifle or Swords your Dragon during your loop and let you bleed for millions of damage in mana burn. Xantid Swarm is superior. Although it cannot stop hate such as Withered Wretch or Seal of Cleansing, it does stop your opponent from countering key spells during your turn or interupting your combo.

[dicemanx]

Petko speaks the truth in everything he said.

For a good example of a rock-solid semi-budget Dragon, check out bebe's mono-B build in the primer. It has Bazaars so it isn't completely budget, but it's pretty much next in power level to the B/U/g fully powered build. Road Trippin has posted something similar on these boards but with a green splash and Xantids in the main-deck.

My thoughts on the red splash: Red offers very little apart from Hellkites. Gambles are OK, but why bother if you have access to the arguably stronger Spoils of the Vault already? And REBs are not an exciting option in Dragon either. This deck doesn't do too well with reactive disruption that only trades 1-for-1 with blue spells.

[bebe]

Hooray I'm famous. I did make a few changes to my mon-black build though ... I added four EsGs for speed. I use three Spoils also not four and always seem to have either a tutor or bazaar available. I wanted that extra main deck space. For the same reason I used three Cabal Therapies. I will say only this about budget mono-b - mulligan down to four or five cards if you have to. You need Bazaar, land or tutor lands first turn.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

no no no no no.
First off, we're speaking in the wrong terms here.
when i say "budget" or "powerless" (i consider bazaar 'power'),  I mean builds without bazaar. In these builds lim-dul's is not a very strong card.
I do understand however that even in bazaar/powered dragon builds, compulsion could still offer some help, which is why i said it is not supposed to replace but in fact complement bazaar.

My team plays budget all of the time simply because all the power in my country has been foolishly sold or traded to yours.
perhaps only 20 or so people has power and among those, only 2 actually use them.
Of the three major vintage tourney that has been concluded here, our team always finished first, always defeating powered players out there like Rakso and Glenchuy (as you know them in these boards).
i may have sounded as if I were over-exaggerating with the use of FoW but having used a mono-B dragon before and switching to UBg Dragon, i can see how much powerful FoW is than black disruption spells.

Don't get me wrong, i agree that mono-B builds are also excellent (especially in the absence of bazaar) but they tend to be less combo-ish and hence, less consistent (with the combo, that is).
This is where the splash of blue goes in; complementing buried alives with intutition, compulsion and careful studie.
Oh and btw, i have to assume you don't read that much. FoW is known as "the glue" not to dragon but to type 1.
it has been known/rumored/speculated to be "the glue" that holds type 1 together.

Also I don't know if it's just me but i was extremely surprised that you see sliver queen as just an "option" to run maindeck.
i personally wouldn't feel comfortable running only the ambassador for the kill.
for me, it's an automatic inclusion, no matter what the build you're running.


dicemanx:
dude, i respect you; have hands down to you on your primer.
however, one thing i don't agree with in your primer is that you implicitly told budget players that playing "budget solid combo dragon" is not possible and that mono-B or BG builds are the only way the go.
this i disagree to completely
.
UBg builds are also competitive and i have to brag i defeat my teammate playing an exact copy of the bazaarless build in your primer somewhere between 60-70%
the reanimator-ish nature of mono-B black builds is ouright good but i'm having great success with the pure combo-build too even if my deck is still a work in progress

Also, the main reason why i like to splash red is to have access to shivan hellkites as an alternate kill.


edit:
pardon me for being paranoid here, but why didn't you guys even comment on the FoW - "the glue" thing. i'm pretty sure everyone of you regulars knows that Petko was extremely flawed in that regard.


Posts merged and edited for spelling/grammar/intelligibility. Please try to make your posts concise and especially READABLE in the future.

Topic moved to the appropriate forum.
 -Eastman[/b]

[RoadTrippin]

Not that it will happen, but I was considering a red splash in it just in case the combo cannot go off, and you need to "God-forbid" cast the Dragon to win.

Honestly, the only way you're ever going to cast Dragon is with Lotus, so the splash color really doesn't matter here.

[Piggy]

Platinum Angel is DAMN expensive and shouldn't be in play by the time you should combo off. And it's not like your opponent can Weld it out consistantly before you win.

Except for the fact that your main kill(ambassador) quite nicely searches out the angel for them plus gives them until their next draw phase to weld it in so summoning sickness is not a problem.  This means that all they require is a mox and welder on the board to do the angel trick.

Lord of the Goats:
what exactly do you mean by defeating an opposing workshop-based deck with the double naimate trick?
either i don't know something or we're using the same terms for different techs.
i know i only use it to seal games in a draw.

I believe he means to get one random animate and one necromancy in response to return their triskelion and your dragon each time so that you can ping their angel away with their own dude, which you conveniently put in their grave with ambassador.  But as he said, don't forget to ping angel for two then ping trike for one to kill it as a state-based effect so that you can continue to animate it.

[dicemanx]

edit:
pardon me for being paranoid here, but why didn't you guys even comment on the FoW - "the glue" thing. i'm pretty sure everyone of you regulars knows that Petko was extremely flawed in that regard.
 

Hardly.

First of all, one must understand why FoW is termed "the glue". This, in turn, leads to the realization of why it isn't imperative to run it in Dragon. In fact, if there was ever a deck that splashed blue where FoW was a poor fit, Dragon is decidedly it.

Blue was unmistakably splashed in Dragon for its powerful combo pieces. FoW was just a logical choice that followed for disruption, but it competes with many other solid disruption spells including black discard and Xantids.

Except for the fact that your main kill(ambassador) quite nicely searches out the angel for them plus gives them until their next draw phase to weld it in so summoning sickness is not a problem. This means that all they require is a mox and welder on the board to do the angel trick.

The Angel is one (small) reason why Dragon runs Sliver Queen. What's interesting is that TnT players don't seem too happy with the Angel in the MD, which means that it might not end up being an issue anyways.

however, one thing i don't agree with in your primer is that you implicitly told budget players that playing "budget solid combo dragon" is not possible and that mono-B or BG builds are the only way the go.

Without Bazaar, blue doesn't have very much to offer. Lim Dul's Vaults are weak without Bazaars, as are Compulsions because they no longer compliment the Bazaar-Squee strategy. Intuition plus Cunning Wishes and Read the Runes are the remaining options, but those lead to a different style of Dragon which is currenly weaker because of all of the hate in the environment. For Bazaarless WGD decks, black has everything it needs already, and a green splash even bolsters your disruption should you need it.

That's not to say that a budget B/U/g deck can't be competitive, it's just that there is no emiprical evidence suggesting that its better than mono-B or B/g.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

first off, in all honestly, i don't see any reason to not run FoW if you decide to run blue in Dragon.
next, i understand why FoW being known as "the glue" in type 1 at large regardless of what deck it is in; it may or may not be optimal, but the mere fact that you can say "no" at a mere price of 1 life and a blue card whatever the circumstance is, i don't see any other point why we should reduce it's nick name simply because it won't perform as powerful as it normally is in a certain deck.
next, i finally found the answer to my inconsistency problems.
i checked out the succesful dragon decklists at morphling.de and found out one major flaw in my pure-combo build; it lacks the shear amount of combo pieces thereby making it less redundant as a dragon.dec should.
i am speaking, of course, of the loss of bazaars.
i am currently testing the red splash to compensate for this loss.
i'll post my testing results later, though i have to say my initial testings showed fascinating results, making me go-off on turns 1-3 consistently (unlike my previous goldfish results of a poor 30% win on those same turns).

[dicemanx]

first off, in all honestly, i don't see any reason to not run FoW if you decide to run blue in Dragon.

It's a matter of space. There are typically 8 disruption slots to fill in the fully powered build, and there are a number of disruption spells to choose from. Right now, Xantids and Duresses seem to be the best choices. FoW is certainly strong, but misses the cut for a few reasons - it doesn't generate the sheer stopping power of Xantid (which can handle multiple instant speed stoppers at a time), it requires you to pitch your valuable combo pieces to say "no", and it has poor synergy when going off with Bazaar, as you usually lose your whole hand in the process.


 

next, i understand why FoW being known as "the glue" in type 1 at large regardless of what deck it is in; it may or may not be optimal, but the mere fact that you can say "no" at a mere price of 1 life and a blue card whatever the circumstance is, i don't see any other point why we should reduce it's nick name simply because it won't perform as powerful as it normally is in a certain deck.

I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning.

FoW is termed the "glue" because its presence helps keep fast combo decks in check and prevents severe abuse of the most degenerate cards. It permits control decks to "keep-up" and ensures their place in the combo/control/aggro triangle.

This does not mean that FoW is some sort of requirement for every deck, including those that splash blue. Dragon is a damn fast combo deck - it doesn't need the stopping power, because you often can ignore your opponent's plans by outracing them. The primary focus of disruption in Dragon is not ultimate stopping power, it's having the ability to deal with your opponent's disruption and push through your combo. FoW does this, but Duress and Xantids just do a better job.

[Lord of the Goats]

Lord of the Goats:
what exactly do you mean by defeating an opposing workshop-based deck with the double naimate trick?
either i don't know something or we're using the same terms for different techs.
i know i only use it to seal games in a draw.

ok, as piggy mentioned you mill the angel for me  so costing mana is irrelevent. however, angel is bad against dragon because of the double animate trick (uiseing 2 animate spells to animate all creatures) which will normally generate a draw... however, if you animate their triskellion (it's tnt so they'll have at least 1) you can ping them 2 times and use 1 counter on the trisk to put it back in their grave so you can animate it again. the primer discusses this under the sligh matchup i believe becuse it can be done with a mogg fanatic as well.

now, that's not the case if you're facing stax or mudd because they don't run trisk.

as for fow in dragon, i run it but i also run a lot more blue than anyone here. imo diceman's original primer list didn't support fow to my liking. i added blue cards (duh) and i'm happy with it now. xantid swarm won't answer any aggro threats to your dragon, and duress is limited in the respect. fow answers anything, and even though swarm is better against control and effects your constuction less, i would run fow in a random metagame.

also, slagwurm is amazingly good because it fucks over removal like nobodies businessi've been running a pair since they came out and i'm yet to be disappoined with them.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

dicemanx:
Very true.
But given the chance, i think i'll stick to FoW simply because xantids tend to be vulnerable.
Against control however, they're golden.
This is the very reason why I run 4 FoW and 4 Duress main and back 'em up witth 4 more Xantids on the sideboard.
Nevertheless, Xantids being better than FoW in a certain deck, like say, Dragon, is not enough justification to say altogether that FoW has no right to be called "the glue" anymore, IMHO.
In a nutshell, I nicknamed FoW as "the glue" in a previous post of mine because it was nicknamed that way by the community; not because it "glues" dragon.dec altogether.
I was terribly misunderstood by you and Petko in a sense that you both thought i was saying FoW is a must in dragon because it "glues" he deck together.
Anyway, i am still having great success with my BRg dragon version, goldfishing-wise.

Lord of the Goats:
I see now.
That greatly cleared things up.
I only use that term when i use both animates to steal each of my opponents critters until both yards are empty so the game would end up in a draw.
We use a different term whenever I use necromancy over an angel in response to it being welded.
I'm using Shivan Hellkites now though, so the angel isn't a problem anymore.
I have yet to test slagwurms but I've been wanting to do so.
I've been wanting to toy with Symbiotic Wurms too since my meta's slowly turning into a welder/mud infested one.
I know Verdant Forces are first conciderations, but sometimes, i badly need those tokens rigth away to neutralize a hungry Smokestack.
Any suggestions?

[LotusHead]

I keep a lucky Fanning the Flames in my sideboard (a XRR Instant kill spell to wish for...).  So far it is just another Instant speed kill mechanic when going off, but it could be used to remove some pesky critter.

I consider the Sliver Queen to be spashing red only due to the fact that if you go off with a Gemstone Mine out, and the Sliver Queen is in your hand, you CAN hard cast it (providing that you found way to stop the reanimate loop) and crank out tons o' critters.

If I hardcast a Worldgorger Dragon, I have already lost.

[RoadTrippin]

If I hardcast a Worldgorger Dragon, I have already lost.

   At the beginning of last summer, I was playing vs. a friend running TnT Round 1. Turn 1 I cast Dragon with my monoblack deck, and proceeded to kill him 1 turn before I would have been killed myself. Boo-freakin-ya.

However, I don't think it's a viable idea to plan on ever, ever, casting Sliver Queen. You need 3 nonland (besides Gemstone) mana sources. It's funny like the idea of casting Dragon, only completely less possible.

[LotusHead]

Dear RoadTrippin':

I have hardcast my Sliver Queen many a time after going off with Dragon.  If I have the Queen in hand, and say, Twisted Abomination or Verdant Force in the graveyard (yeah, I still use the Fat regenerating landcycling zombies), and a gemstone mine.  Sounds like a big conditional situation, but well, it DOES happen.  

My build is powered BU and Bazaarless.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

With regards to hard-casting a WGD, it happens man.
I usually hardcast my Dragons (both WGD and Shivan Hellkite) when I'm testing against my team mate running ankh-sligh.
We all know that a second-turn ankh of mishra in a pre-SB game equals a dead combo.
Of course, it's much viable to just animate them but sometimes, hard-casting your dragons (or your Sliver Queen) just happens. It wouldn't necessarily mean you're losing, but ultimately, it means you were not fast enough.

[DEA]

I usually hardcast my Dragons (both WGD and Shivan Hellkite) when I'm testing against my team mate running ankh-sligh.
We all know that a second-turn ankh of mishra in a pre-SB game equals a dead combo.

wrt to the hardcasting part
what're you going to do when you're staring down a chalice for 2 AND 3?
anyway, something is not right with the last statement
especially if you're running md shivan hellkites
necromancy at eot will burn him out

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I'm not sure if I was able to follow your reasoning, DEA, but just so to make things clear, here's what i meant:

Firstly, Hardcasting Shivan Hellkites or WGD's, obviously outside of the combo, happens and won't necessray mean you're losing.
I've won some games with a hardcasted WGD on my side of the table.

Secondly, if you're opponent is playing ankh-sligh and he managed to play a second turn Ankh of Mishra, that means you won't be able to combo-out with whatever animate you have (may it be animate dead, dance of the dead or necromancy targetting a WGD), because each time your lands re-enter play, you'll take 2 damage form each of them, thereby killing you before you can even shoot your opponent via Hellkites for even 1 life.