[Discussion] Timetwister in (Standstill)Control

[Rico Suave]

While i was trying to keep this on the twister issue, i will address the comments.

I purposely avoided Twister, because you wouldn't run it if you had black.  This is not a Twister issue.

On the issue of black, I certainly thought about trying to bring it in like the other keeper variants but i can't fit the lands and mox and 2 good cards that black brings to the MD.  Like I said, yawg will is the only thing I miss, demonic is neglible.  I fully understand what a broken card yawg will is, but thus far I have managed without it.

Dustbowl is just one more mana denial tool not spell, but it is a bomb and single-handedly wins games especially under a standstill.  Its power should not be underestimated. The fact that it is a land and not a spell that can be counterd, duressed, or needs a big graveyard and brings its ability to the early game makes it a must.

You can't be serious.

You say Demonic Tutor is negligible, but Dustbowl is a bomb?  

And how does Dustbowl bring it's ability to the early game?

You're also forgetting that black offers Mind Twist, Skeletal Scrying, Vampiric Tutor, Coffin Purge, and who knows what other cards you want to run.  

You should also take into account you only have 2 Balances in your deck.  A version with black has your 2, Demonic Tutor, and 2-3 more with Cunning Wish--> Vamp.  That is a very significant point.

True, i only run 1 more basic(with B2B and bloodmoon all over that makes a difference) but 3 colors by nature is less prone to color screw, easier to find and definitely allows smoother casting of all your spells.

That's true, but you didn't address how you are running less total colored mana than normal.  Your mana is still vulnerable to everything you just described.  Assuming that cutting a color and cutting colored mana equal out, you're now left with the same quality mana base but without some of the best cards in your deck.

This is due to the fact that Keeper has slow win conditions and it doesn't have any spells taht really capitalize on the denial while the opponent is feeling it.

Yawgmoth's Will.

[Ultima]

Demonic Tutor is neglible because the only thing I would going to get for it is another wasteland or gorilla shaman most of the time.  Impulse gives much the same as an instant really.

The deck isn't looking for more tutoring, its looking to cycle through its MD as fast as possible for more denial or removal.  

Aside from yawg will and demonic tutor, black doesn't give anything i'd want in the MD over what's there already.  Scrying is strictly inferior to standstill when playing a mana denial strategy especially with this metagame leaning towards Aggro right now.

Coffin Purge though is very powerful and certainly would earn its place.  This is the only real SB card that is appealing and worth it.  Vamp tutor doesn't really earn its place for Keeper in my opinion because, 1. your already kicking your own ass with using 2 scrying in an aggro meta. 2. since there are only 2 wishes in a Keeper deck, most of the time your getting answers, not tutors or draw spells.  

Mana denial happens in the early game only for the most part.  If your only starting to strip lands after the 5-6 turn , then there's really no point to it outside of you trying not to lose now to bazaar.  If its a library, you've probably already lost.  Yawg Will has no place in the early game, only towards the late game. Keeper needs to capitalize on denial in the early game when its happening, not later after they get out of it.  Yawg will doesn't do this like standstill and dustbowl.  By capitalizing, i'm not only talking about getting more cards in hand but continuing with the denial and adding more pressure with dust and decrees.

The manabase may look equal. but isn't as prone to color screw.  I can still impulse, brainstorm, twister, or wish into answers more consistently for B2B or Bloodmoon than if I needed that 1 black mana for scrying, demonic or vampiric.  And if I find the moxs, in time or before, I can almost ignore them altogether as the draw engine doesn't suffer any real hits.

[Zherbus]

1) Do you mean ' negligible?'

2) Dust Bowl isn't all that much more 'early game' than Yawgmoth's Will. While I agree it is potent in theory, in practice it's rarely better than a Wasteland.

3) Good players don't let you abuse Dust Bowl under a Standstill.

4) Semantics issue: Why do you insist on calling your deck Keeper. Keeper runs Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor, and Mind Twist - these have been staples ever since they've been printed. Such a radical change deserves a different label to ease confusion (such as this thread going from talking about Twister in Keeper to Twister in StandStillThing.dec). Your deck is as different from the Keeper skeleton as Tog is (instead of minus white for plows and Balance, you took out Black).

5) I'm renaming this thread since it's true purpose is more apparent.

[defector]

I just bought a TT for my stax deck, and thought aboput running it with drains in my "not quite keeper" deck, I decided against it becasuse Stax keeps you from playing spells, if I have a lock on you could draw as much as you want, no avail.  In control though any spell I cs has to further my position of strength, TT resets, whic is contrary to my control philosophy.  If you run control that prevents your opponent from utilizing the seven new cards, TT is tech, otherwise if you are running single answer control(you spell, I counter, u summon, I plow), stay offf TT.
defector
otherwise, its a really cool card, my second fav of the 9 behind walk

[Ultima]

Well then, I suppose that if it is the TMD's attitude that Keeper is defined by its black cards for the most part and these cards could never be replaced with anything different or new, regardless if they are an improvement or not, so be it.

While I remember reading coutless articles and posts about Keeper adapting or changing to accomadate new ideas, I suppose they forgot the to add the part that said "by the way, if the black cards or staples aren't there, then its not Keeper"

Maybe we should all make that mental note for the future, aye people.
Whatever.

[Vegeta2711]

What do you expect exactly?

Well then, I suppose that if it is the TMD's attitude that Keeper is defined by its black cards for the most part and these cards could never be replaced with anything different or new, regardless if they are an improvement or not, so be it.

Well let's see, the black cards have been around for a long long time and you'd need a damn good arguement to cut them out of the deck completely. I mean really your suggesting 'improvements' on 3-4 of the most powerful cards in the game, it's a hard sell.

by the way, if the black cards or staples aren't there, then its not Keeper

Because it's NOT. If the decks turn into RWU I hope they change the name to something else. Keeper is basically the name for 4-5c control, I don't see why it's such a big deal that he changed the name of the thread to reflect the differences in your deck.

[DavidHernandez]

Well then, I suppose that if it is the TMD's attitude that Keeper is defined by its black cards for the most part and these cards could never be replaced with anything different or new, regardless if they are an improvement or not...

This is an interesting point.

Is Keeper defined by U/b/w/r ? Did it become less "Keeper" when Green was dropped? Does it become EBA or ABM or XYZ when a Keeper skeleton is tweaked?

Personally, I believe that U/b/w defines both Keeper and The Deck.  I think that the Red splash is optional, though i'm certain many will disagree (Shamans, REB, and Rack & Ruin may be considered staple cards).

dave

[Zherbus]

Fine, then have it your way then. Regardless of whether the deck has merit, anything starting with 4 Mana Drain, 4 Force of Will, and dual lands has to be Keeper.

My point is that your painting the format with too broad of a brush. EBA came of its own because it ISN'T Zoo, Mud because it isn't Stax, Tog because it isn't Keeper, and Oshawa Stompy because it isn't Madness.

[DavidHernandez]

@Zherbus: that's my point--Keeper IS defined by it's use of U/b/w, and without the Black component, it is something else.

dave.

[Zherbus]

Sorry Dave, I didn't even see your previous post. I was busy answering Ultima's post.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I think blue control decks are several different animals right now, all defined by Mana Drain and Force of Will, but with the following "third card" which happens in each case to be the non-Brainstorm draw engine:

Keeper: Skeletal Scrying/Fact or Fiction
IsoKeeper: Isochron Scepter (or Impulse if you prefer)
Landstill: Standstill (duh)
Tog: Accumulated Knowledge

When I'm classifying the naked decklists on morphling.de, these are some telltales I look for. If I saw a Ubrw deck without Scryings but including AK, I'd be weirded out, and probably make specific note of it as "AK Keeper". Similarly, Ultima, by bringing in Standstill and cutting major signature signs of the deck, has made his deck into a (IMO very odd) Landstill deck. It's possible that the draw engine will change in the future (certainly most would not have predicted Brainstorm before the advent of fetchlands), but for now this is a sufficient guide for me to class a deck at a glance.

As for Timetwister so I can pretend the thread is on topic, it is not as good to play as numerous other options. I think I'd rather have a lousy Impulse or pretty much any search over something that gives my opponent a whole new grip of threats.

[defector]

I for one was sad to see keeper lose green, is there a competitive 5 color out there, with moxes and duals and fetches, why isn't there?  Keeper is what keeper does, board control via counters, enchantments and draw.   Stax is what stax does, meditate + smokestack, but mainly out-permanent you.  It's style of play + maybe a few key cards that defne an archetype. stax is pretty tight, while keeper is loose.  Keeper is harder to define than stax, but both are immediately recognized by an experienced player.  I'm probably not adding anything, but synergy between key cards usually pushes a form into an archetype, imho.
defector

[Ultima]

Well then I guess there seems to be a misunderstanding about how some define decks and how I do.

Frankly, I don't define Keeper based on its colors, but its style and strategy.  Its true Keeper is not just anything with 4 drains,4 forces, and duals. I view Keeper as a pure style control deck designed to have all the answers.  Keeper is inherently slow, uses control and all forms of removal.  It used to be closer to a deck filled with one-ofs and restricted cards but that has changed for just about every keeper player.  Let us not forget that in point to fact, Keeper was defined by its creator as a BW control deck in nature although that was a long time ago.  

With my view of Keeper or what its supposed to be, I try to use or play the best cards I can to formulate and carry out the strategy regardless of the colors.  Therefore it doesn't bother me if black gets cut as long as the deck preforms better.  If standstill provides better card drawing than scrying and helps the strategy then so be it, its worth a shot.  I don't believe in decks being defined by SINGLE colors or cards but strategy.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I don't believe in decks being defined by SINGLE colors or cards but strategy.

I take particular exception to this. A single card can itself create an entire strategy which forces certain deck choices upon you.

Examples in the order they occur to me: Psychatog, Standstill, Survival of the Fittest, Cunning Wish, Bazaar of Baghdad, Illusionary Mask, Academy Rector, Replenish, Quirion Dryad, Mindslaver, Force of Will (arguably), Isochron Scepter...

[Phele]

I view Keeper as a pure style control deck designed to have all the answers.  Keeper is inherently slow, uses control and all forms of removal.  It used to be closer to a deck filled with one-ofs and restricted cards but that has changed for just about every keeper player.

But for sure there are still necessary restricted tools/answers/bombs you won't ever cut when you don't want to weaken keeper drastically. Namely: Balance, Ancestral, Mind Twist and others. To find and draw these solutions for almost any situation what gives keeper its strength you NEED black with Demonic Tutor and Skeletal Scrying - what is clearly better in keeper as an aktive not reactive draw option what standstill is - maindeck and Vampiric Tutor in the sideboard. And for sure you weaken every deck with mana acceleration by cutting the second best card ever - Yag Will.

For Timetwister - as said before - there are too many deck concepts around beneftitting from this blue one for what you spent mana. When you try to fit TT in keeper you are probably going to cut Scrying which is - again - better because I prefer just getting card advantage instead of having for example mox monkey out with opponent having had moxes out to get that advantage as Zerbus described.

[defector]

I think part of the story here is that different decks define themselves in different ways.  Tog and rector are both decks that are defined by creatures, but in one the creature is the win condition and in the other its the trigger for a card that provided a few possible win conditions.  Keeper is not Serra Angel or Morphling or Decree, its control with 2-3 slots open for win condition.  Stompy isn't rogue elephant or Rushwater legate its a strategy deidcated to a high creturte count, its also aggro-control, buyt not aggro-control like suicide, just like how Keeper is b/u conttrol, but not b/u control th way tog is.  Stax/mud/welder-mud/stacker3 al play differently though they may share 12-20 cards main.  Decks define themselves diferently a they are created an dimproved, we follow ith words chasing what is really just xcards=winning formula.  Oh well what the hell, its variety that makes t1 cool, as soona s we all start defining things the same way and playing the sam ecards, i'll quit.
defector