[Deck Discussion] A new way to use Chalice of the Void

[mtg_player_2004]

I will try to get right to the point without leaving you too stripped of information.

Chalice of the Void
XX
Artifact
Chalice of the Void comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Whenever a player plays a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

So far, chalice has appeared in two competetive decks.  Chalice Black, which runs it like it would with a Nether Void, and TnT.  It's used as you would expect it to be, either to counter 0cc artifacts like mox and lotus, or to slow down weenie or burn decks.  Unfortunatly, it can hurt these decks just as bad, so it must be kept at 2 max counters.  Since their win conditions are 3cc or 4cc, even if they could get 8 counters (not too hard with workshops and tombs IMO), they would be stuck too.
So I got to thinking, with workshops and enough early ways to deal with threats (namely duress, FoW and creature control), a chalice deck with spot removal could be able to work.  But most spot removal is cheap, and if the deck is loaded with just expensive cards and chalices, it's going to suck.  I also can't go overboard with cheap artifact for mana, so 4 workshop and 4 tomb would be neccesary.  I decided that the extra speed 4 tombs give me should make this deck be able to pull off it's mission before it dies with the assistance of roughly 2-4 damage per turn.
I knew I wanted a combo for a kill.  At first I just though about Karn, but decided if I did this, I would just end up wanting to turn this into a Stax build, so instead I went for a somewhat avoided combo: Upheavel and Zombie Infestation.  This combo was first introduced in T2 a while back, using subpar permanents and counters, then playing the combo and getting 6-8 zombies and winning easily.  This was tried in T1 but without much success because it never had any good permanents that would keep it alive.. until now.

"Upheaving Locks" V1.0
65 cards total

The Win (7)
3 Upheavel
3 Zombie Infestation

I decided this should be enough.  Early infestations can do as blockers, but you don't really want them early other than that.  I also ran 3 of each for intuition.

Lock (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

At first I didn't like the idea of Tangle Wire in here as it interferes with the speed of the deck while my opponent may be able to play around it, but with 4 tombs and 4 workshops to get a trinisphere or chalice soon after it, and some playtesting, I decided to keep it, but it's one of those cards I may subtract later.

Disrupt (12)
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
2 Mana Drain
2 Innocent Blood
1 Misdirection

The only big change I am considering here is -1 Duress +1 Mana Drain for FoW and Misdirection targets.  I don't want stifle maindecked because it has somewhat bad synergy with this deck.  I do want to include Mind Twist here, but I haven't been able to find the room for it.

Utility (9)
2 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker

No timetwister, it would help my opponent out too much in many cases.

Mana (26)
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

My excuse for running the mana artifacts is to play them after an upheavel if I don't get them off early.

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Cabal Therapy
2 BEB
2 Hydroblast
2 Headstone
2 Smother
1 Vampiric Tutor

I decided that if I need SB cards it will be early, hence the low CC.

Problems with the deck:

1.) It's 65 cards, obviously.
2.) Some decks outcounter it even with the duresses.
3.) Lack of artifact hate.
4.) Artifact hate directed towards it.

[LotusHead]

This is a reply to "new ways to use Chalice of the Void"

Chalice is set by charge counters on it.  There are several cards that add or remove charge counters.  Has anyone tried adding or removing charge counters to Chalice of the Void as the game unfolds? Perhaps in response to someone casting a spell?

Just a thought.

[Yare]

This is a reply to "new ways to use Chalice of the Void"

Chalice is set by charge counters on it.  There are several cards that add or remove charge counters.  Has anyone tried adding or removing charge counters to Chalice of the Void as the game unfolds? Perhaps in response to someone casting a spell?

Just a thought.

What you're proposing won't work.

It only checks the number of counters on this card at the time the spell is being played. Changing the number of counters after that will not change the outcome. [Mirrodin FAQ 2003/10/01]

Because it is only checked when the spell is played, changing the number of counters after the spell is placed on the stack will not do anything.

[Tank]

No, it won't be able to respond to spells that way. Howver, what he's proposing might still work the other way- you can start out with a low chalice and then slowly add  counters as the game proceeds to be able to counter the most threatening spells your opponent controles, whatever they are. You can also move a coutner to play a spell yourself that would otherwise be ountered, then move the couinter back onto chalice with one of the mana counte-movers... Just a thoiught, anyways, it'd be har dto implement I know... :-/

[Eddie]

Since their win conditions are 3cc or 4cc, even if they could get 8 counters (not too hard with workshops and tombs IMO), they would be stuck too.

How is that? The decks don't even have an 8cc card in them. And getting 16 mana for those 8 counters is not that easy trust me. Am I missing something here?

[mtg_player_2004]

Eddie, yes you are missing something, I ment 8 mana for 4 counters, or 12 for 6 (karn), 8 mana IMO would not be that hard to achieve, 2 mishra's workshops a land and a mox, that's 4th turn chalice, even faster with black lotus or sol ring / mana vault / grim monolith / ect.

[Eddie]

If that's what you mean, then it's best not to talk about 8 counters   .

[kirdape3]

You are counting upon getting to not six, but eight mana without the use of all the Moxen, Mana Crypt, and Lion's Eye Diamond in Type One.  It's tough for a control deck to get UU up in time to cast Mana Drain once, let alone 5UUB to cast Upheaval/Infestation.

So the win condition is balls - you're in the same colors as Psychatog but do not use it.

The deck itself is 65 cards.  That's a blatant error - you rely on actually drawing your kill conditions and the more cards you have hinder this.

You also are trying to resolve spells around your own Trinisphere, which is bad.  Mana Drain is one of the basic cards of the format for a reason - it's really useful to provide mana to fuel win conditions to control decks.  Trinisphere makes it a 1UU counter - still good, but nowhere near as amazing.

It just doesn't seem like the deck has any actual focus, and if you're U/b control, why aren't you just Psychatog which wins on turn 4 and beats almost every other deck in the format?