[Deck Discussion] $T4K$

[Toad]

In the last tourney I played with $T4KS (last september), I kept track of the ways I killed my opponents. I played 7 rounds and 1 single elimination game (losing into quaterfinals). I've won 15 games, and only killed 4 times with Karn. 9 times my opponents scooped and 3 times I've won thanks to Welder beatdown. In november I brought Welder MUD to a small tourney and out of 5 swiss rounds and 2 Top4 games, I've only killed once with Karn. My 13 other wins were to opponents scooping to an hard lock going on or Welder / Metalworker beatdown.

If you fear 1-0 loss, you can still use a Karn in your sideboard and bring in game 2 for a faster kill.

[DEA]

and there's always the random "i just want to see how your deck kills" guy around that makes you swing for twenty turns :lol:
nevertheless, slavery should win quickly
if you have infinite mindslaver recursion, your turn will be draw, swing, go
while the opponent's turn will comprise of throwing away the cards that can hurt the lone welder

[Rico Suave]

and there's always the random "i just want to see how your deck kills" guy around that makes you swing for twenty turns :lol:

That's a good thing though.  If they're going to make you play it out, then play it out real slowly and win the match 1-0 without enough time for another game.

[Wollblad]

The kill
People scoop when there locked and facing a win condition other than Welders. But that may take som time. Most poeple seems to advocate 2 Triskelion and 1 Karn. I personally prefere 2 Karn and one Triskelion since Karn often is a faster kill and is more fun without Welders. He also atacks your opponents mana base. I admitt there are matchups where Trisk is better, so I always have a second one in my sideboard.

The mana base
I guess that soon, Sphere of Resistance is replaced by Trinisphere. I have also noted that poeple seems to cut Grim Monolith befor Mana Vault. Wouldn't it then be better to use Grim instead of Mana Vault?

[Toad]

The kill
People scoop when there locked and facing a win condition other than Welders. But that may take som time. Most poeple seems to advocate 2 Triskelion and 1 Karn. I personally prefere 2 Karn and one Triskelion since Karn often is a faster kill and is more fun without Welders. He also atacks your opponents mana base. I admitt there are matchups where Trisk is better, so I always have a second one in my sideboard.

You just want Karn against Tog. That's all. In every other matchup, Welder is fine. If your opponent doesn't want to scoop, then drop him to 1 life with your Welders, and wait, going for a 1-0 kill. It's enough. There are even some matchup where the Welders go in the sideboard when I have won game 1 (namely, fast combo decks like TPS or Dragon). If you fear being decked that way, just hold Timetwister in hand. I've already done that once in tournament. You just need balls

The mana base
I guess that soon, Sphere of Resistance is replaced by Trinisphere. I have also noted that poeple seems to cut Grim Monolith befor Mana Vault. Wouldn't it then be better to use Grim instead of Mana Vault?

Mana Vault = 2 manas
Grim Monolith = 1 mana

That's all what matters here.

[Wollblad]

You just want Karn against Tog. That's all. In every other matchup, Welder is fine. If your opponent doesn't want to scoop, then drop him to 1 life with your Welders, and wait, going for a 1-0 kill. It's enough. There are even some matchup where the Welders go in the sideboard when I have won game 1 (namely, fast combo decks like TPS or Dragon). If you fear being decked that way, just hold Timetwister in hand. I've already done that once in tournament. You just need balls

In my experience you want him against anything that's got moxen, which at least here is 80 % of the field. Then you can start Welder his artifacts like Masks and Scepters. It is just pure synnergy with the deck and as a bonus he kills your opponent. Futhermore you cannot be sure of a 1-0. The Tendril decks must as an answere to Trinisphere be even quicker, and you cannot rely on winning the dice throw.

On the Trinisphere part, I have experinced that you do not want them active when you use a Memory Jar, but you do not want to deactivate them since then your Jar might get Stifled or your opponent cast a Recall. How is the best play there, acept that I get perhaps 3 cards out of the Jar or risk a Recall up my nose?

[Toad]

In my experience you want him against anything that's got moxen, which at least here is 80 % of the field. Then you can start Welder his artifacts like Masks and Scepters. It is just pure synnergy with the deck and as a bonus he kills your opponent. Futhermore you cannot be sure of a 1-0. The Tendril decks must as an answere to Trinisphere be even quicker, and you cannot rely on winning the dice throw.

Maybe you're not as experienced as Kevin Cron or myself with the deck, which means you want Karn as a safety net in some matchups. Using only Welders requires you to play more carefully, because you can't just drop Karn and reset all your mistakes thanks to him. Tendrils decks are not really a problem. Being faster is not a solution, they can't lean towards that solution. Being as fast as possible won't help against Workshop Trinisphere or Workshop Sphere or Chalice of the Void openings. You have 12 threats available that severely hurt Combo : Chalice of the Void, Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere. Sure, Karn is cool at eating Moxens, but Chalice for 0 is a good call too. Karn is often a dead card, blocked by a single Xantid Swarm forever. If you don't feel confident without Karn or whatever else in the deck, then just use one, you won't be blamed for that. But Karn is just simply not needed. Even when I was packing a single Karn in my deck, 8 times out of 10 I killed with my Welders or my opponents scooped under a hard lock.

[Wollblad]

OK! I will test and see how one Karn works out then. Next issue, I have seen some resent builds where Chalice is taken out for more card drawing. I guess it is to focus on the Tangle Wire / Smokestack engine. It is weaker against combo, but is it stronger against control and aggro? I'm a bit reluctant to this change, specially after addition of Trinisphere since the deck then gets a hole in the mana curve at 2 mana while most other decks are hurt tremendously by a chalice set at 2. On the other hand. Chalice feels more like a speedbump until you can find something that really kills your opponents permanents, so why not find these cards instead of waiting for them? Any comments on this?

[Gaea]

Nobody here posted his decklist so i've to read all the discussion before answering to all, however i want to post the deck that won the tournament of last week:

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Smokestack
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
1 Memory Jar
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Goblin Welder
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Time walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Meditate
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

SIDEBOARD
3 Fire/Ice
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Blood Moon
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

The matches:

hulk win 1-0
madness lose 0-2
monoblack win 2-0
hulk win 2-0
combo belcher draw 1-1
rector tendrils win 2-0

top8
rector tendrils win 2-0
tentrix (italian version of tendrils combo) win 2-0
keeper win 2-1

there were 53 people
77% spoilered decks
33% control decks
41% aggro decks
26% combo decks

[Toad]

What's the point in running 3 Blue Elemental Blasts here? Fire/Ice is better against Sligh, Goblins, Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Welder. Tormods Crypt is better against Dragon.dec because Blue Blast sucks against Verdant Force.

The deck is running too many lands, Shivan Reef or Wasteland are better than basic Islands (just keep 1 for Blood Moon issues). The MD Blood Moon are not really needed, Fire/Ice fits better here (even against Keeper). What the reasonning between only 3 Chalice of the Void?

[defector]

I like the list as far as the "you can win without black", as far as welder beatdown goes, Toad and Kevin know best, I guess.  I run a 2 Karn security blanket.  I like it, it's warm and fuzzy and wins in 1-2 turns.  When I got involved in the scoop vs play discussion, what i was mainly thinking about was, don't quit until you know theat your opponent knows your beat.  Give them every chance to screw up and see what happens.  
Question for Toad?  How do you feel about running without black?  Have you done much testing here?
thanx
defector

[Wollblad]

First I have too admitt that after testing with only one Karn and one Triskelion, I feel comfortable with those two only. I do not miss my second Karn. In some metagames though I can see the use of a second Triskelion, for example if there is much Stax, and aggro. It is also very handy when you're up against control Slavery, an in my experience very hard matchup before sideboard.

What the reasonning between only 3 Chalice of the Void?

What the reason for running Chalice of the Void at all? Well, it might lock your opponent if he/she happends to have cards of a sertain CC in hand, but there is no guarantee. I allways seems to draw multiple Chalice, but feels that there is only one CC open to play them for without hurting myself too much. To fit in Trinisphere I cut 2 Chalice (put one in sideboard) and 2 Sphere of Resistance. It feels like I get a more stable lock that way. Except against aggro and sometimes combo decks, I do not miss the two cutted Chalice very much.

Regarding the draw engine I settled for Wheel, Jar, TT and three Thirst. I prefere Thirst since it is when you don't have a lock, you're in the most need of cards. Thus Meditate becomes, just as Time Vault, a win more card while Thirst can be played in a more aggresive way. I also cut Windfall since I felt I had one draw seven too much. They must be timed correctly so you don't give away the game. Wheel and Jar are both strictly better than Windfall and the recursion of TT is, as pointed out, cruical sometimes (specially against Dragon).

I do not run black. I cannot see how the mana base can withstand the inclusion of black. It is hard as it is to find coloured mana of the right kind as it is with all wastelands and Stifles around. It was better half a year back when LD was less present, but the meta game today just demands a stable mana base.

[Toad]

When I got involved in the scoop vs play discussion, what i was mainly thinking about was, don't quit until you know theat your opponent knows your beat.  Give them every chance to screw up and see what happens.  

Point is that your opponent can always drop you to 1 life thanks to Welder beatdown, and stall the game from that point to kill in the first additionnal turn. Last friday I got involved into a french T1 mini with $T4KS (test build, straight UR, no Karn), and I faced one opponent who refused to scoop under a hard lock. His argument was "I want to see your kill first". I kept the lock for a few turns, then dropped a Welder and said "I'll beat you down with Welder now, and you won't see my real win condition". He scooped. I had no other "real" win condition, but the Welder dealing his point of damage per turn was enough. I had a Karn in the sideboard as a safety net for when I lose game 1, which happened only once, and I still managed to kill game 2 with Welder. So IMHO, Karn is not even needed in the sideboard. You just need to play fast.

Question for Toad?  How do you feel about running without black?  Have you done much testing here?

With Trinisphere making all your Moxens cost 3, Yawgmoth's Will is pretty bad in the deck. This means Black will only give you Demonic Tutor, Mind Twist (to seal a win), and maybe Terminate (heavy Aggro metagame) and Coffin Purge in the sideboard. I don't think It's worth risking colour screws in early game. Straight UR is fine. This allows me to run more U/R lands (Shivan Reef - making me less vulnerable to Wastelanding) less fetchlands (Stifle) and a few Ancient Tombs. Kevin "Ch41n5" Cron still plays with Black, but we didn't had time to talk about that together yet. Probably soon.

[defector]

Thank you Toad for the reply, I don't miss black.  I don't have all the jewelery you do, so I'm running wasteland in place of the Moxen I don't have.  I don't have the balls to cut Karn like you do and go wth welder beatdown.  I agree with what your doing it, i'll need to test for comfort.  Thank you for the input
defector

[trouT3R]

i run x2 sculpting steel in my deck. you can copy any of your current threats, and if they play masticore, su-chi, etc. you can copy that. i beat a guy with a copy of his own juggernaut that i welded out after i copied it. tech.

and eater of days hasn't worked for me. it is often a dead card in hand.

[CHA1N5]

With Trinisphere making all your Moxens cost 3, Yawgmoth's Will is pretty bad in the deck. This means Black will only give you Demonic Tutor, Mind Twist (to seal a win), and maybe Terminate (heavy Aggro metagame) and Coffin Purge in the sideboard. I don't think It's worth risking colour screws in early game. Straight UR is fine. This allows me to run more U/R lands (Shivan Reef - making me less vulnerable to Wastelanding) less fetchlands (Stifle) and a few Ancient Tombs. Kevin "Ch41n5" Cron still plays with Black, but we didn't had time to talk about that together yet. Probably soon.

Toad speaks the truth.

The finer points of this discussion are at the meta-specific level.  Black is in for control matches, in an environment where control == Tog (without Wastelands).  If I was in New England I'd probably play UR.

Mindslaver is the key to consistantly beating Tog (and worse matchups), so it has supplanted Sphere of Resistance in my current build.  The deck (like any other) relies heavily on an established metagame in order to solidify it's final 2-4 slots.