Fixed Ancestral Recall

[Marco]

I'm posting this because it was mentioned in the New Card Drawer thread. It was never shot down, it just suffered from being in a thread with 57 other cards and therefore not added to the master thread. Here is the original version:

Ancestral Remembrance
U
Instant
Draw two cards. You skip your next draw step.
Pay 1 life, remove Ancestral Remembrance from the game: Draw a card. Play this ability only if this card is in your graveyard.

Some of the proposed fixes for this admittedly powerful card included a casting cost of 1U and "U, pay 1 life, remove Ancestral Remembrance from the game: Draw a card. Play this ability only if this card is in your graveyard" to prevent the flashback-like second ability from being "abused" by decks without blue in them.

Current Wording:

Ancestral Remembrance
U
Instant
Draw two cards. You skip your next draw step.
U, pay 1 life, remove Ancestral Remembrance from the game: Draw a card. Play this ability only if this card is in your graveyard.

[Ephraim]

I'm not sure I see the difference between the card's second ability and Flashback. The only real difference I can see is that you can't dig this up with Quiet Speculation. Why not just give it Flashback -- , Pay 1 life?

Actually, with that in mind, this card bears a lot of resemblance to Deep Analysis. It's dissimilar enough though that I think we can compare the two to gauge the power level.

You're getting a discount of the first time around and + 2 life the second time around, but you're skipping your next draw step, so it's really generating net card advantage of zero (but then, so does Brainstorm!). This is na instant, but so are Brainstorm and Opt. Yeah, I think this card's okay.

[Jacob Orlove]

This really should just use flashback. It makes the cards simpler and more straightforward.

[Matt]

It doesn't use flashback because the second ability isn't the same as the first.

[Marco]

Right on!

[Jacob Orlove]

It doesn't use flashback because the second ability isn't the same as the first.

But the first ability is basically the same as the second. Is this really that different from:

Ancestral Remembrance
U
Instant
Draw a card
Flashback: U, pay one life.

[Marco]

Yes. My version draws 3 cards. Your version draws 2 cards.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yes. My version draws 3 cards. Your version draws 2 cards.

But your version "costs" two cards, and my version "costs" one. Yours gets you the card sooner, but mine avoids serious memory/cheating issues.

[Ephraim]

His version draws 2 cards, but doesn't skip the next draw step. So in essence, he draws 3 cards over two uses and his next draw. You draw 3 cards over two uses, but forgo your next draw. Yours gets you the cards a little faster, but the difference is very small.

[Marco]

I have my reasons for not making this a card with flashback. However, there is also the matter of counterability? Flashback can be countered? My flashback-like ability cannot.

[Ephraim]

I'm never comfortable with the words, "Oh, I have my reasons." At the very least, I can't help you improve the card without knowing what your reasons are.

[Ric_Flair]

This card is crazy in the draw three version.  It is SO MUCH better than Deep Analysis, which, as we have learned, is a lot better than they are willing to make again.

First off, this card is an instant, which means that it can be played eot.  Second it cost U.  These things together mean that even with the drawback of skipping a draw step, this card is AMAZING.  Essentially Deep Anal, without "maddnessing" it, costs you a turn, a sorcery at 4 mana.  This card does not even do that, so the lose of a card is offset by the loss of a turn.  So the "drawbacks" of the two cards are equal, which means we can look at costs.

For UU and 1 life you draw three.  Deep Anal is 4UU, 3 Life: Draw Four.  This is WAY TOO good.  

Jacob's version is probably more like something they would print, but even then it is really good.  It is essentially UU and 1 life for 2 cards.  You draw 1/2  the cards at 1/3 the price (AT INSTANT SPEED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD), if Deep Anal is the scale, and even then Deep Anal was too good.  

It is silly to improve on cards that are too good, especially when the fixes are so close to being openly comparable.  If Deep Anal is too good, and they regret printing it, there is no way they would print either version of this card, seeing as it is just flat out better.

Oh yes, this should have flashback.

Either version is TOO GOOD.

How about an Gemstone Mine version of Ancestral, you know Gemstone Mine is to Black Lotus, what this card could be to Ancestral.  Something like this:

Name of Card, U:
Enchantment

During your upkeep put a counter on this.
Sacrifice this: Draw a card for each counter on this.

[Marco]

Thank you Jacob Orlove, Ephraim, and Ric_Flair. Does anyone else have anything to say? I guess I should say, does anyone else have anything to say that hasn't already been said, because if people agree they don't usually post.

[Matt]

Well actually I'm already making Ric's version. It does need a name however - would you be averse to combining our ideas?

[Marco]

I don't mind Flashback, I just wanted to do something different and not rely on an existing mechanic. Besides, I think we have too many mechanics in our set already: We have Buyback, Cycling, Entwine, Fading, Kicker, Morph, Storm, and Threshold, as well as Enchant Worlds. And I only counted 3 cards with Flashback in the master thread.

Matt: I don't know what you mean by "I'm already making Ric's version"? When I clicked on your hyperlink I saw your card. Didn't we just add MoreFling's enchantment card drawer to the master thread? Actually, we already have A LOT of card drawers in the master thread.

[Matt]

Ric's card and mine are both card drawers where you just wiat a number of upkeeps for your cards. They're basically the same card.

Also, people just like making card drawers. They won't all get into the set.

[Marco]

I think my card is fine as-is, but how do you suggest we combine our ideas?

[Ric_Flair]

Marco, your card is not fine as is.  It is WAY TOO strong.  Matt's is more in line with what they print now.