Outside the "box" : The Banned/Restricted List

[TheMuffinMan]

There was so much talk about the upcoming banned and restricted list. The anticipation grew as people were waiting for the latest announcement from the DCI and Wizards of the Coast. Ultimately it resulted in people getting disappointed. For those very few who have yet to find out I’ll provide the bad news here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20040301a.

If so many are disappointed, and if everyone agrees with the fact that some things are unjustifiably restricted, then why not do something? The obvious answer is that we just can’t do anything because wizards and the DCI have all the power. I would say lets look at our options again.

This may be hard to swallow but what about the potential for going outside the system and creating our own banned and restricted list. Now before you dismiss this possibility lets look at the current type one community. First off most type one tourneys and almost all of the competitive tourneys are allowing proxies. Well since these tourneys allow proxies, they cannot be sanctioned. If a tournament is not being sanctioned, then it does not fall under DCI rules and can therefore be changed. Then since the type one community is essentially in the hands of web pages and their members (TheManaDrain, StarCityGames, Morphling.de), why not create this system.
   
Well, there does in this lie a lot of problems:

1) Finding a competent, unbiased, and universally accepted council to make decisions for the list.  or:
2) Potentially making decision through open polls or ballots or discussion over forums.
3 Gaining appeal and acceptance from those leading web pages and the rest of the type 1 community.
4) Appealing to newcomers of type one without confusing them with an alternate list.
5) Still maintaining the competitive level of sanctioned tournaments without essentially undermining WOTC.

The benefits however, do seem to be appealing.

1)  Some of the cards in this article could be unrestricted allowing for a more healthy and diverse metagame. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6723
2) We would no longer have to worry about T1.5 influencing the B/R list.
3) The type one community would have the attention it deserves and it will gain the ability to change quicker.

I think it is a viable idea that at least deserves some consideration. I am eager to see comments on this issue.


And please be gentle, it’s my first time……posting.

[Smash]

You have to understand the way the DCI B&R list works. The DCI is not overly worried and the T1 metagame, and isn’t always the best informed. The DCI keeps just enough stuff banned to stop mass disaster, while making no real effort to unban something previously banned short of a unilateral plea.

The problems with going outside the DCI list are many. While a good many T1 players have found a home on this website, a great deal have not. Do we want to have different B&R lists as we travel from city to city? One follows DCI rules, one follow crazy no bannings, and another is super scrubish and restricts morphling because “OMG he kills me every time.” Will each metagame develop it's own B&R list? This is obviously unacceptable. If we form a governing body and make these changes, I see no feasibly way to inform the general public. I personally like being able to travel from city to city and “get my type 1 on” without too many problems.

As a general rule, I think people cry foul far too often. Rasko and many people on this site would vote to ban dark ritual, but to what end? Combo is doing nothing special in the format, and you make a marginal deck (sui) a total pile of trash. The metagame has presented itself to be a fair balance of decks, with no single decking p0wning unfairly. Why change anything, rather than just let the metagame play out?

1) Some of the cards in this article could be unrestricted allowing for a more healthy and diverse metagame. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6723

How does earthcraft make it more healthy and diverse? It is a bad combo card that won't be played that much. Whoppeee.

2) We would no longer have to worry about T1.5 influencing the B/R list.

For the most part we don't. Some say earthcraft is an example, but it was not THAT special in T1 that it really mattered one way or another.

3) The type one community would have the attention it deserves and it will gain the ability to change quicker.

This leads to overswings. Right now I am sure someone wants to ban AK cuz "semmycakes" said tog is too good and we need to stop it fast mmkay?  With the current system, a deck has to PROVE itself over MULTIPLE tournaments for something to happen. While this isn't always how the DCI works, it is how it generally tries to.

[TheMuffinMan]

While a good many T1 players have found a home on this website, a great deal have not. Do we want to have different B&R lists as we travel from city to city?

I would say this is a possible outcome if people did not centralize the list in some way. I think that there is enough communication in the type 1 community to create a list that stands strong for all proxy tournaments.

How does earthcraft make it more healthy and diverse? It is a bad combo card that won't be played that much. Whoppeee

It is a bad combo and your right it won't be played that much. But it will be played sometimes, and I think that giving people the options is what type 1 is all about.

As a general rule, I think people cry foul far too often. Rasko and many people on this site would vote to ban dark ritual, but to what end?

Not to discredit those who would have dark ritual banned, but that is why you place competent people in charge of making decisions like that. Who would elect rasko?

This leads to overswings. Right now I am sure someone wants to ban AK cuz "semmycakes" said tog is too good and we need to stop it fast mmkay? With the current system, a deck has to PROVE itself over MULTIPLE tournaments for something to happen. While this isn't always how the DCI works, it is how it generally tries to.

I think this is an over exaggeration. No competent body would ever rightly restrict AK just because a deck does well during at a couple tournaments.

The benefit of an independent body that has authority over the b/r list is:

1) speed of decision making
2) decisions which are more in tune to the actual type one atmosphere

[Smash]

The thing is,  how would unbanning crap like eartcraft and fork effect the environment? It may very well not, so why even bother?

Maybe the DCI will listen some day as a bonus, but are you unable to play T1 to your full potential because you can't use earthcraft?

[Androstanolone]

I like playing off-decks for fun and earthcraft combo is great in scrubby places where everyone just plays with the cards they happen to get from packs when it was all the rage in high school.  Slip 4 earthcrafts in a deck and nobody is really any wiser .  Outside of casual play I don't see most of the cards he mentioned affecting the format in 4 ofs, with the exception of entomb.  Straight dumb reanimate decks would have a field day with 4 entombs, it needs to stay on the restricted list.  Fork is iffy, but ultimately I think it's in the wrong color, if it were blue it'd be a lot more powerful.

While a good many T1 players have found a home on this website, a great deal have not. Do we want to have different B&R lists as we travel from city to city? One follows DCI rules, one follow crazy no bannings, and another is super scrubish and restricts morphling because “OMG he kills me every time.” Will each metagame develop it's own B&R list?

this is true to a very large extent.  I believe I said in irc that it would lead to "chaos" and, in a way, to T1 anarchy.  An overwhelming majority look to the same governing body for decisions right now, and accept those decisions happily or not.  Such a consistent system is, while imperfect, much better than the separate patches of different rules we would eventually end up with without the DCI.  I played T1 for a long time before coming to tmd, I know people who have never seen tmd and play T1, not as seriously, but still competitively on occasion.  We, here, cannot speak for the entire T1 community.  The DCI can, effectively, set universal policy because of its size and media power.  

I believe that, at first, if we convinced enough people of the idea and everyone got really excited about it, it'd work.  Except for non-tmd T1ers we'd be well off.  But eventually people would disagree, people would get pissed b/c their favorite card got banned, etc.  and factions would start to rise.  T1 would simply not benefit from such a change.  Things aren't so bad right now that we need to risk breaking the metagame and cohesiveness of T1 apart.  It's not that desperate.  Yeah, I wish I could occasionally bust up in a tournament with earthcraft just for fun, but honestly I am not truly angry that I cannot.  If the DCI starts getting crazy and restricting mana drain, fow, survival, etc. then there will be cause for worry.  And don't forget, you can still play with any cards you want!  You and whoever agrees with you can have tournaments or casual play with whatever rules you see fit, you still have total freedom to play the game of magic in any way you choose.  

Also, the metagame is pretty balanced right now, there are so many viable decks it's unbelievable.  Workshop is dominant and powerful, but doesn't need restricting.  Overall most people are happy with the meta.  I agree that there needs to be a format that includes all the magic cards printed but has a separate B/r list, but getting that going is the job of the people who actually want to play a format like that, I'm sticking to T1.  

Hope this shed some light on why the DCI is doing a'ight.  



- Androstan

[Gabethebabe]

Maybe the DCI will listen some day as a bonus, but are you unable to play T1 to your full potential because you can't use earthcraft?

Restricting Earthcraft leads to the death of a playable, amusing and not-broken combo deck. That is a pity. But nothing more.

[mogote]

First off most type one tourneys and almost all of the competitive tourneys are allowing proxies. Well since these tourneys allow proxies, they cannot be sanctioned. If a tournament is not being sanctioned, then it does not fall under DCI rules and can therefore be changed.

To my knowledge this is only true for North America (correct me if I'm wrong). A lot of the T1 tournaments in Europe are DCI-sanctioned and still attract many players. I just want to hint at this misconception of yours.

[jdl]

To my knowledge this is only true for North America (correct me if I'm wrong).

It seems to be mainly the east coast U.S. where the proxy tournaments are popular.  You can still find real T1 tournaments elsewhere in the country, and in Europe of course.

-- Jim

[waSP]

I was under the impression that nearly all of the tournaments outside the east coast were sanctioned.  Earthcraft being unrestricted creates a PLAYABLE budget combo deck.  I know it's playable because I designed it.

I think the DCI needs to pay more attention to the format.  A less constrictive Restricted list would probably promote more play (more options).  With more options, tournaments are more likely to be sanctioned.

People like Smmenen fantasize about the "perfect" metagame, where everyone brings the perfect deck.. etc.  This is a hobby we play to have fun.  I find one of the most fun things is following my rating (constant sanctioned tournaments have gotten me up to 40th in the world).  Without sanctioning, I probably wouldn't have had the same competitive drive this past year.  I think TO's should organize more sanctioned, smaller tournaments.  They are fun to play in (a HUGE draw for magic players).

I'm a little tangental today, I apologize.  I don't think it would be at all beneficial to start our own "system."  There isn't enough unity in the community.  Many people post here because this is the only real place (in English) to post on T1, despite their dislike of the administrators.  You would have a heavily fractured community.  It is a noble idea though.

[Smmenen]

People like Smmenen fantasize about the "perfect" metagame, where everyone brings the perfect deck.. etc.  This is a hobby we play to have fun.  I find one of the most fun things is following my rating (constant sanctioned tournaments have gotten me up to 40th in the world).  Without sanctioning, I probably wouldn't have had the same competitive drive this past year.  I think TO's should organize more sanctioned, smaller tournaments.  They are fun to play in (a HUGE draw for magic players).

I think you missed the point.  I fantasize not about a perfect metagame, but a competitive one free from the excesses of scrubs in the format I enjoy most: Type One.  I'm sick and tired of Pwning people with my combo deck when they bring shitty aggro deck X to a tournament that they shouldn't even be playing in.

Steve

[Gothmog]

I get tired of destroying overhyped combo decks with turn 1 Null Rod\Chalice\Root Maze\Trinisphere\you pick the hate personally.  The games are too boring.

When will you guys understand that combo will never be the dominant archtype you want it to be for one fundamental reason; the B&R list.  We have a B&R list for two reasons:

1) to deal with overpowered cards
2) to stop combo from owning the format

I get a chuckle everytime I see an argument that Type I will reach a critical mass of cards and nothing but combo will be playable.  Critical mass was reached years ago.  The DCI has been adding to the B&R list to stop combo for years and will continue to do so.  It is one of their two primary goals in even having a list.

I admire the work and thought put into deck building in all the archtypes, including combo, but you have to understand that Wizards wants combo to be viable but not dominant.  That's obvious in the quality of new combo hate cards we've seen in the past couple of years.

A short note actually on topic.  Yes, if I had a magic wand I'd make a few changes to the B&R list.  But I think the DCI has done a great job over the last few years with the list.  Whenever something new is added or removed, for two weeks its continual moaning about what was done or not done.  But funny, for the last few years at least, if you look at the threads about 3-4 weeks later, the vast majority of comments on the changes are what god they done for the format and positives about the health of the format.

The DCI has has some very tough calls to make the past few years...LED, Rector, Workshop, Survival, the Wishes, many others...I don't think a reasonable argument can be made that they haven't done a good job in the vast majority of those decisions.  As evidence, I'll point you to the very healthy metagame we have atm.

[Pern]

I'm sick and tired of Pwning people with my combo deck when they bring shitty aggro deck X to a tournament that they shouldn't even be playing in.

...and then scooping to True Believer...