Some concerns about Stax

[Wollblad]

@Lashkar
Your line of argument is correct as long as you're not playing against Stax or Mud. Mud, for example, just have to spare a Metal Worker that might be in play and then play more or less all 7 cards you gave him with your draw 7. Then, you can of course refrain from playing your draw 7, but that is having a dead card in hand and waiting for the right opportunity can much well cost you the game. On the other hand, you are right that mulligans becomes less painful with draw 7s in the deck, but I think Wheel of Fortune is enough.

Regarding Karn, I'm not sure against what deck he is really good. If your opponent somehow has managed to get a lot of 0 cc artifacts into play he might eat them all, but his ability to transform your artifacts into creatures is indeed not neccesary at all, not even against aggro to generate blockers. In fact, his position has weakend a lot since his partly incompatible with Trinisphere. Is it perhaps Karn that should be cutted to leave room for card drawing (or whatever you feel you are missing, perhaps a Mindslaver)?

[Razvan]

Okay, I tested a couple of things. I even had a powerless version of Stax going (yes, damn store banning p9), and the card I missed most after Black Lotus was the cursed Timetwister.

First, lack of moxen and the inclusion of basic land obviously reduced the explosiveness. However, the consistency of it has risen considerably. The number of horrible situations I am stuck in has taken a nosedive.

However, one needs to get used to keeping hands one would normally not keep otherwise. If I have a Welder, Thirst for Knowledge, a couple of artifacts and a couple of lands (not necessarily Workshops), normally not the hand you want to keep, well, it's not a bad hand in this environment.

It gives you a different perspective. On the same note...

Thirst for Knowledge is sick. I think it's better than Meditate. You draw one less card, and you lose the interaction with Smokestack, but it's so bloody good with even just one Welder in play.

Mindslaver... all I can say is... YEAH!:) I am not sure if it was said, but it really helps against Dragon if you time it right.

[BreathWeapon]

Another path to take the deck down is the City of Brass/Glimmer Void Manabase. It makes supporting Black relatively easy and opens up the door for MD Balance. Its fun as hell to play Xantid Swarms out of a Workshop deck vs Tog if nothing else.

[Razvan]

Hm... I don't think that's always the best idea. Stax's mana base, although numerous, is rather fragile. Putting in one City of Brass is not a bad idea, but you really have to maximize available mana in the face of a Null Rod and Wastelands.

Glimmervoid seems weak, especially with the ammount of artifact hate in the environment.

[Smash]

Hm... I don't think that's always the best idea. Stax's mana base, although numerous, is rather fragile. Putting in one City of Brass is not a bad idea, but you really have to maximize available mana in the face of a Null Rod and Wastelands.

Glimmervoid seems weak, especially with the ammount of artifact hate in the environment.

If they kill all your artifacts, you most likely already lost. COB is horrible because of tangle wire interactions.

I would definately run glimmervoid before COB.

[Shadow Ninja]

Because I'm such a friggin genius I posted a bunch of stuff about Trinistax in a thread that was more geared towards a Turbostax outlook.  I didn't want to waste all that typing, so I'm transplanting it here.  I know some of it is stuff I've already articulated in my arguments, but hopefully these are more compelling and thorough representations of my thoughts on various matters.  Anyways, here's what I had said.

"

I'm not certain about the inclusion of 4 Shivan Reefs.  I've been warming up to the idea of one or two lately, but I still think some of those slots should be fetches instead.  Of course, if you have a Stifle heavy metagame (damn you blue LD!), by all means keep the playset of Reefs in.

Prison decks already rely on four rather vulnerable creatures (I speak of course of the Welders) to ultimately shut the game down and turn the "symmetrical" effects of the Prison elements into complete one-sided lockdown.  I see no reason to include 4 more easily removable creatures, even if they are mana producing machines like the Metalworkers.  You'd be better off with more lock components in the main.

Spheres are good, and 6 of them is probably really good.  I've finally broken down over this point, just because it's entirely necessary to have one early, like first turn early.  4 Trinisphere and 2 Resistance seems right.

I'm a fan of maindeck Chalices, just because in a format where cool combos are prevalent Chalice becomes a nightmare for your opponents.  This goes double when yo can lay it for the all important numbers early.  For isntance, Chalice can completely neuter decks like Food Chain (well, not completely, but you ought to be able to lock them down if they can no longer cast their Recruiters) and is handy against other combos as well.  No more relying on zero drops to boost your Storm counts into the stratosphere!  Bwahaha!  Then again, you can't always have everything maindecked, and there are certainly matchups where the Chalice is not what you want in your opening grip, so to the SB it goes.

Meditates can be pretty solid, but there may not be room in the deck for them.  After all, Meditate can completely foul up an opponent's plan for breaking the lock.  Of course, it can be completely dead in your hand, but by then you've probably lost anyway.

Mindslaver is so good.  It adds a whole new dimension to the lock, as it has amazing synergy with the nature of this deck, which is to completely remove the opponent from the game, or at least to keep them from doing anything too important.  What does that better than a few turns of "Sac your best permanent, throw your good cards into the bin, make your Tog eat your entire hand and yard, etc."?  Perhaps even more importantly, with as much synergy as Mindslaver brings to the deck AND the fact that he's recurrable thanks to Goblin Ashtray Crafter, the Mindslaver is just too good because of all the anti-synergy it has with many opposing decks.  There are so many decks in the format that require the correct plays at all times in the game to win, and if you mess those up, the game is as good as lost for them.  Tog, just eat their yard and hand.  Dragon, mill their library and give them back their stupid Laquatas (make sure to get rid of their Dragons, too).  Food Chain, simply get rid of all those Goblins by saccing them to Food Chain.  Of course, for some of these examples you must catch your opponent at the right time, but even if you don't get such golden opportunities, you're absolutely guaranteed to mess them up.  Many people have pointed out the obvious lack of synergy Slaver has with Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, but they seem to forget that you can weld those out for something else, like your win condition that you'll use after you Slaver to clear the path.  Oh, and if I forgot to state it before, Slaver + Smokestack = too good.

In conclusion, this is the list I would run, if given the chance (and, more importantly, the cards necessary):

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
2 Shivan Reef
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Goblin Welder
2 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Mindslaver

2 Meditate
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Thirst for Knowledge

If you find that the Meditates just aren't working for you (it's understandable, sometimes I don't like them either), they're easily replaced by the fourth Thirst and win condition of your choice (Triskelion to deal with opposing Welders if you're in a Prison-heavy metagame) or a second Slaver.

Like I said before, hope this was helpful.

"

While we're at it, any thoughts on this build versus the others we've seen?  Never hurts to compare, although usually it boils down to play style and personal preference.

You'll notice the one lone Island in the deck as a way to have blue mana if your opponent gets too happy with Wasteland effects, or if they decide to try Blood Moon out of the board.  I also cut the Tombs, because giving up life seems too risky.  But I could just be tired at the moment.  The alternative is +2 Reef +3 Tomb -4 Delta -1 Island.

[defector]

I'm happy with 2-3 Shivan Reef in my build.  I also run three tombs over the moxen I don't own.  I would like tro cut that number to 1 eventually.  I think Stax needs 26-28 Mana sources unless you ahve the 7 SololMox, I run 26 in mine and haven't complained too much.  I would like to cut to to 24, but I'm not sure how to yet.  Fetches should be at 3, I run four simply because I have nothimg better at the moment.  The draw sevens are necessary, especially the timetwister, in long games in particular, i have ancestralled twice to my opponents 0, way big.  cahlice shoudl be 3-4 main, I cut sphere completely for 3sphere, maybe I should experiment with a combination of them.  The deck is so tight, its hard to screw with it.
defector

[Shadow Ninja]

The problem I have with Twister is the shuffle your graveyard back in thing.  It's just bad synergy with the Welder, and I think the rest of the draw is strong enough to warrant cutting the Twister.

The version I've been running until recently did not run Sphere of Resistance, but I found that the deck just lives off a first turn sphere.  4 wasn't giving a good enough first turn sphere ratio, so adding in the two Resistances seemed like the only way to go.

I'm convinced that in a fully powered version, no Tombs should be run.  The hands where you are actually happy to have a Tomb are few and far between, and the pain is just unbearable, really.  Add to that the fact that the deck runs so muc artifact acceleration, and it seems clear to me that Tombs can be completely cut.

You're absolutely right about the fetches; four is too many.  With three fetchlands and 4 Volcanics in the main, there is a good enough chance that you'll have one when you need it at all times.  I'd run a Lotus Petal or the third Reef over the fourth fetch.

[defector]

Right-O, I like a one of Tomb simply for wasteland purposes, I don't like the pain, but I do like the 2 mana, not sure if petrified field would be better or not.  I think Sphere of Resistance should go back in, i'm going to start screwing with this, my instinct says 2-3, i'll see what I can cut.  Maybe it's time to give Karn the BIG BOOT!
defector

[BreathWeapon]

I really disagree with 90% of the card choices and advice i've seen so far in this thread and the Type 1 forum's U/r Trinistax thread. This is how I would play Trini-Stax,

Lock Components (17)
4xSmokestack
4xTangle Wire
4xTrinisphere
4xChalice of the Void
1xMindslaver

Creatures (5)
1xPlatinum Angel
4xGoblin Welder

Draw Engine (9)
4xThirst for Knowledge
1xAncestral Recall
1xMemory Jar
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWheel of Fortune

Mana (29)
1xTolarian Academy
4xMishra's Workshop
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
2xAncient Tomb
4xVolcanic Island
4xShivan Reef
7xSoLoMoxen
1xMana Vault
1xMana Crypt

Biggest points to make,

Grim Monolith and Lotus Petal are both sub-par forms of acceleration and should be removed from the deck entirely. Shivan Reefs are better than Fetch Lands because they don't fall prey to Stifle and increase the number of real mana sources in the deck. Fetch Lands don't protect you from Wastelands, they just delay your color screw or Bull's Eye your Workshops. Ancient Tombs are awesome, i'd include 2 in any Workshop build.

Windfall and Time Walk are both mediocre cards for Stax. They are unpredictable and more often than not dissapointing top decks. Meditate is nifty and all, but I don't see any reason to run a conditional Draw Engine when Thirst for Knowledge will pick up the slack and give you superior prospects during the first few turns of the game before you can establish the lock. I really like having more flexible draw for Stax a lot. Timetwister is not anti-synergistic to the deck, its recursion ability is damn useful in soo many situations i'd never cut it.

Platinum Angel>Karn. The Angel is a lock piece and kill condition all in one. She will single handedly win entire games for you vs numerous decks like Fish and O-Stompy. She also turns Welder into a lock piece vs Dragon's primary win condition. If your not playing the Angel, your playing an inferior Stax.

The Slaver is mandatory. When combined with Tinker and the Angel, you can simply take control of the game regardless of your lock pieces on the board. Any situation that Stacks, Wires, Spheres and Chalices aren't fast enough to handle ... The Angel and Slaver can.

Removing Chalices is just BAD. They own Control, Combo and most Aggro. If you build your Trinistax deck to include zero 2 drops, then Chalice is simply the shit. Cutting them is Suicide.

[Shadow Ninja]

Grim Monolith and Lotus Petal are both sub-par forms of acceleration and should be removed from the deck entirely.

I agree, which is why my list doesn't run either.  I only suggested the Petal because it could possibly replace a fetch, and I'm not a huge fan of Tombs.

Shivan Reefs are better than Fetch Lands because they don't fall prey to Stifle and increase the number of real mana sources in the deck. Fetch Lands don't protect you from Wastelands, they just delay your color screw or Bull's Eye your Workshops.

This has already been discussed.  In fact, pretty much everyone who's posted has brought this point up.  However, I consider a balance between Reefs (painlands in the deck that's trying to do everything in its power to impede the other deck's progress towards killing it) and Fetches (can easily lead to mana fixing or mana screwing, and are nuked by Stifle) much better than all of one or the other.  

Ancient Tombs are awesome, i'd include 2 in any Workshop build.

Why are they awesome?  Are Workshops not enough to help cast your non-colored spells?  what about all those artifact mana accelerators that don't kill you hardcore when you use them?  With the acceleration and workshops in the deck, I consistently have 3 mana first turn for the Trinisphere.  Besides, Prison shouldn't be killing itself; it's opponent will do everything in its power to do that.  Giving them too much of a headstart is contrary to the philosophy behind the deck.  

Windfall and Time Walk are both mediocre cards for Stax. They are unpredictable and more often than not dissapointing top decks.

I've been wishy-washy about Windfall for awhile as well, and it could be cut, but the point is sometimes it's better than, say, Thirst for Knowledge, and sometimes it isn't.  In a deck where you're trying to shut down your opponent's options, Windfall may well bring you from 2-3 cards in hand back to 6 or 7.  And I don't recall anyone mentioning running Time Walk, other than to denounce it for it's bad synergy with the lock.

Meditate is nifty and all, but I don't see any reason to run a conditional Draw Engine when Thirst for Knowledge will pick up the slack and give you superior prospects during the first few turns of the game before you can establish the lock.

You've managed to establish that Thirst is better pre-lock and Meditate is better post-lock, which is certainly nothing new or unexpected.  That's part of the reason I run 3 Thirsts and 2 Meditates; I'll have a better chance of finding Thirst early and Meditate when it's relevant.  Meditate is all about the mindgames that Prison can provide.  It allows you to mess up your opponent's math and figuring, and can give you the edge needed to win.  Or it can suck, but so can many of the cards when used incorrectly or drawn at bad times.

I really like having more flexible draw for Stax a lot. Timetwister is not anti-synergistic to the deck, its recursion ability is damn useful in soo many situations i'd never cut it.

Welder recursion is stronger than Twister recursion could ever hope to be in Prison.  What's he use of returning your graveyard to your libary and hoping to draw 7 good cards when you could just use Welder to recur bombs that you've already searched out, such as Slaver or your lock components?  Also, if you Twister with lock pieces in place, you risk not having an artifact to weld in in place of a lock piece that's done it's work (such as a Stack or Wire).  You're then making the lock symmetrical again, and that's a bad thing.  Still, Twister can be some good, as it has a lot of inherent power, just not a lot of synergy with the lock and Welder.  Perhaps replace the Windfall with it.

Platinum Angel>Karn. The Angel is a lock piece and kill condition all in one. She will single handedly win entire games for you vs numerous decks like Fish and O-Stompy. She also turns Welder into a lock piece vs Dragon's primary win condition. If your not playing the Angel, your playing an inferior Stax.

I disagree.  Plat Angel is nice and all, and will do a lot of good things for you, but she's a 5 turn clock.  Karn tends to be a 2 or 3 turn clock, depending on what components of the lock you have out.  Plat Angel also seems like a win more card, one that is only going to save you if the lock fails anyway, and chances are if they break the lock they'll trash the Angel, too.  5 turn clocks give them more turns to break the lock than 2 or 3 turn clocks, which is also a bad thing.  

The Slaver is mandatory. When combined with Tinker and the Angel, you can simply take control of the game regardless of your lock pieces on the board. Any situation that Stacks, Wires, Spheres and Chalices aren't fast enough to handle ... The Angel and Slaver can.

I agree with Slaver being mandatory, because he improves the quality of some of your lock components, while allowing Prison to 'just win' against several of the prominent decks in the format.  I don't get what Slaver and Angel have to do with each other in your argument, though, as with Slaver and pretty much any other lock component you can take your opponent by the balls for the game, especially with Welder recursion present.  Also, Wires, Chalices, and Spheres all come down fast, whereas you have to use a 3cc spell that workshop can't power out, combined with 4 non workshop mana to activate Slaver (unless you're holding Slaver, in which you have to have 6 mana available to cast it).  How is that faster than the other lock components?

Removing Chalices is just BAD. They own Control, Combo and most Aggro. If you build your Trinistax deck to include zero 2 drops, then Chalice is simply the shit. Cutting them is Suicide.

I would argue that running 6 spheres maindeck is probably more important than running the Chalices maindeck.  Chalice is good in some matchups (I'm not certain it makes enough impact on most aggro or control, but it certainly messes with combo), whereas you want spheres against everything.  There's just not enough room maindeck for them, otherwise I'd be gung-ho for 4 of in the MD.

I look forward to your response.

EDIT:  I've been thinking about it, and perhaps cutting Windfall for the 4th Thirst is a good idea.  I'll have to try it out.

[Toad]

Timetwister is not anti-synergistic to the deck, its recursion ability is damn useful in soo many situations i'd never cut it.

Correct. I've never had troubles with Timetwister while playing the deck. If your only concern is preventing a broken Goblin Welder recursion, then just don't cast your Timetwister anyways because you are already winning and giving a fresh new hand to your opponent is a risk you don't want to take. In every other situation, Timetwister is awesome. Far better than Windfall.

Platinum Angel>Karn. The Angel is a lock piece and kill condition all in one. She will single handedly win entire games for you vs numerous decks like Fish and O-Stompy. She also turns Welder into a lock piece vs Dragon's primary win condition. If your not playing the Angel, your playing an inferior Stax.

Karn does the same. It eats Moxens against Powered decks, which means he perfectly fits in the mana denial theme of the deck. Meanwhile, Platinium Angel does nothing other than being a win condition and a Peacekeeper-like dude against Aggro. And quite frankly:

Goblin Welder > Platinum Angel or Karn.

Removing Chalices is just BAD. They own Control, Combo and most Aggro. If you build your Trinistax deck to include zero 2 drops, then Chalice is simply the shit. Cutting them is Suicide.

This is a metagame call. Chalices are horrible in a metagame where Workshop decks are rampant. They are just so-so against Madness and Dragon. I'm currently running 2 because that's the number I feel like playing in my metagame. There is no standard call. If all you see is Sligh and TPS, then 4 Chalice is a good deal. If you only see Workshops, 0 is the way to go.

This deck WANTS 4 Thirst for Knowledge. Thirst is the best card in the deck, and I'm not kidding. I've even faced some situations when I drew Ancestral Recall and wished It was a Thirst. I'd run Thirst over Meditate every day. Don't consider Meditate as a draw engine. It's another lock component, but a conditionnal one.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, one of my biggest points for using the Angel>Karn is that its more than a Kill Condition, its a lock piece. In my testing, I always had an active Smokestack chipping away at my opponents Moxen long before Karn ever showed up, even with 2 of them.

I do fully agree that Welders>Kill Conditions. I wouldn't use one at all if it didn't have a dual function in the deck and wasn't "Time Practical" for 45 minute rounds. For me, dropping the Angel and flipping the bird to a Fish player or O-stompy is priceless. I also highly respect that Welder=Lock Piece vs Dragon more than most. The duration of the clock simply isn't a legitamate argument against the Angel, or any kill condition for the deck as far as I am concerned. People just don't break out of a solid lock like it was some sort of Magic Trick, 5 turns should be more than enough to take the opponent down.

@Ancient Tombs, I rarely find the life loss to be relevant and they strongly re-fortify the deck against Wasted Workshops and reduce mulligans.

@Chalices, my metagame consists of Tog, Combo, Prison and Budget ... and I think that sums up why I am soo damn partial to them. I can't remember the last time I saw a Prison Mirror, so take this with a grain of salt.

[defector]

I'm experiemnting with the angel, I have a big tourney tomorrow, Dreamer's for a Saphire.   I'm Thinking zero win conditions main outside of Welder beatdown and either Karn or an Angel in the baord, maybe two triskllions, on emain, one in te board.  Windfal in my opinion sucks and has always sucked and should never be played, but I also hatre incinerate as well.  Timetwister is your friend and the debatethere shoule be closed, it will win you games turn one if you are lucky enough to go mox, mox, workshop, mana crypt, smokestack, timetwister.  it will cement the lock late inthe game, the only time you don't need to cast it is when you've already won.  I hat eGrimi monolith as well, but have not beenable to get rid of it.  I'm testing more tonight, we'll see how I do.
wish me luck
defector

[Shadow Ninja]

I will concede the point of Timetwister.  It is obviously quite a good card, and can be helpful to the deck in situations where you need to find pieces of the lock, or where you just need a fresh hand of brokenness.  The point I had not previously envisioned was that Twister also saves dead Welders, something that can be quite handy.  It is obviously better than Windfall, as Twister is good without the lock, whereas Windfall is not.  I will switch them in my list next time I test.

However, I still think that Karn is a better win condition than Platinum Angel.  The deck does not need another lock piece, especially one that does little to stop your opponent from developing the board.  The deck will take a win condition that works as a proactive piece of the lock, though.  Karn is a decent win condition because he ends the game faster than the Angel and also functions as mana denial, as Toad has already mentioned.  Perhaps Plat Angel should be considered as an alternate win condition, to be sideboarded in matchups where it is obviously better than Karn.

The point with running Karn is the obvious versatility already mentioned.  He wins the game quick AND can function as disruption if necessary, whereas Angel takes longer to deal lethal and does not function as proactive disruption against your opponent's development.  Against powered opponents, Karn provides nice synergy with many of your lock pieces, making Smokestack even more painful, eating permanents so Tangle Wire taps the important stuff, and turning Trinisphere into even more of a hard lock through mana denial.  

With Ancient Tombs, it really seems to be a matter of preference.  If you choose to run them, I'd only run one or two.  With all the positive feedback they are getting, I plan on testing two in my next build.  After all, the same argument for wanting 6 Spheres applies to wanting 6 Workshoppish lands.  

As for people not being able to break the lock, I would say that, while it does not happen often, it does happen.  Sometimes your components and your draws simply don't go your way and the lock loses strength.  Having a kill card that takes 5 turns as opposed to one that takes only 2 or 3 is giving your opponent more room to breathe, plan an escape from the prison, and combo out.  It's just a thought to keep in mind.

EDIT2: Here's my experimental changes that I plan to test.  I decided to go back to one Karn like I used to run, just because there is so much draw and search that he won't be hard to find when he's needed.  Windfall became Timetwister, a Karn became the 4th Thirst, and 2 Deltas became 2 Tombs.  Comments?

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
2 Shivan Reef
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Mindslaver
2 Meditate

1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Thirst for Knowledge

[defector]

I cut the fetch count to three to add tombs. I also refuse to run 29 mana sources, I run 26

Mishra's workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Flooded Strand x3
Island X1
Volcanic Island X4
Shivan Reef X3
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Anceint Tomb X2
Stripmine
Grim Monolith
Lotus Petal

No wastelands, they don't work for me.  Grim Monolith and Lotus Petal suck and i'd replace them with Mox Sapphire and Mox ruby whenever I get to it. I would cut one ancient Tomb for the Mox emerald and call it a day.  Ocassionally it fucks me, but the only real difference between 26 and 29-30 is the wastelands, they don't belong and if you really like them run Welder/Mud instead.  It's unreal to me that thebase is fragile at 26 and tog's is solid at 24 giving them a 2 spell vs 2 perm difference, one that in my opinion can cut both ways, but proabbly gives tog more successful draws/topdecks and only benefits me with anactive smokestack. Oh well.  That's my two cents onthe mana base.
P.S.. I owuld cut the fetch count to 2 if I had a black lotus
defector

[Shadow Ninja]

Prison without Wasteland?  That's just not a good idea.  Wastelands are necessary to take out your opponent's mana, strengthening the lock by denying them mana to get around Trinisphere and permanents to break free of Tangle Wire and Smokestack.  Wastelands are also integral in the mirror match, and against Bazaar decks, of which we know there are plenty.  Against Dragon in particular, you have to stunt their mana if you hope to win.  That's hard enough to do quickly as is, but without the Wastes the matchup is most likely hopeless.

Removing the Wastelands will also be your doom in the mirror, as they'll just waste your Workshop and beat you by locking you out.  

In short, Wasteland should under no circumstances be cut.

[BreathWeapon]

Seriously, most Prison players are happy enough to kill with Welders. The difference in Karn's and the Angel's clock is irrelevant. Its not a relevant argument against the Angel.

[Shadow Ninja]

Seriously, most Prison players are happy enough to kill with Welders. The difference in Karn's and the Angel's clock is irrelevant. Its not a relevant argument against the Angel.

Most of the time it is not relevant, but it becomes relevant in those rare exceptions when the lock is breaking down and you have to end the game quick.  In those cases, Karn's game ending power is clearly better than Plat Angel's gamebreaking ability.

Sure, it's not relevant 99% of the time, but in that 1% it certainly is, and if we're talking about an optimal build, we cannot just ignore that 1% like you suggest.

[BreathWeapon]

1%? Please, there is no way you can justify this conclusion or provide evidence to support it. How often are you going to kick yourself in the head when Dragon decks you with a Laquatos and you have an active Welder on the board and no Angel? I bet you its going to be a hell of a lot more than 1%.

How often does Prison win outside of a lock or dominant board position? Rarely if ever unless you dropped a first turn Karn, Trisk or whatever.

[Wollblad]

Now, Karn is a part of the lock as he can eat artifacts. I cannot see myselfe replacing Karn with an Angel. The angel might be better against Dragon but does not have the same synnergy with the deck as Karn, and I feel that Karn is hanging loose, so the Angel does definatly not make the cut.

I think we have ashieved one of the original goals with this discussion: most have come to the conclusion that Thirst is better than Meditate. I'm also happy to see that I'm not alone in my doubt about the draw 7's. After following this discussion, I have settled for the following card drawing:
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
I would like to fit in a fourth Thirst, but not on the cost of Timetwister or Wheel.

I would like to ask everyone to try to focus on the sideboard. I was early on critizied for my choice of Hurkyl's Recall although it is considered one of the best sideboard cards against Stax. I'm also suprised to hear nothing aboute my choice of Viashino Heretic, everyone else seems to prefere Rack and Ruin. Is Rack and Ruin really that much better than the Heretic, and If I would cut Hurkyl's Recall, what card could be put there that would help up the hard matchups I was talking about initailly (madness and TnT)?

[MuzzonoAmi]

Welders are fine by themselves, and other creatures just take up valuable space that lock parts could be in. And not running Wastelands in this deck is like not running Mountains in Sligh - it just doesn't work.

[Shadow Ninja]

1%? Please, there is no way you can justify this conclusion or provide evidence to support it. How often are you going to kick yourself in the head when Dragon decks you with a Laquatos and you have an active Welder on the board and no Angel? I bet you its going to be a hell of a lot more than 1%.

How often does Prison win outside of a lock or dominant board position? Rarely if ever unless you dropped a first turn Karn, Trisk or whatever.

You are suggesting using Platinum Angel against Dragon instead of Karn.  Sure, that makes perfect sense.  However, Karn is better than Platinum Angel  against most other decks, so why would you want Platinum Angel, a card that will help you against one or two decks more than Karn will, in the main?  Platinum Angel is a fine sideboard card, but Karn does more for the lock in more matchups than it by denying mana and beating for solid damage.

If your metagame is dominated by Dragon, then by all means run Plat Angel in the main over Karn.  However, in most metagames you are more prone to run into one of the other decks out of the dozen viable than you are to run into Dragon a majority of the time.  

Basically, I'm arguing to improve the deck's matchups against most of the decks, whereas you are concerned with Dragon, which, while a bad matchup, still should not be considered more pressing to deal with than everything else out there.

[defector]

Don't run either the angel or karn.  Neither are as good as a lock component.  don't even kill them with wleders, make them concede or beat them when time is called, no sb for you NEXT.
defector

[Shadow Ninja]

Don't run either the angel or karn.  Neither are as good as a lock component.  don't even kill them with wleders, make them concede or beat them when time is called, no sb for you NEXT.
defector

What lock component am I not already running that should be run in place of Karn?  Seeing as Karn functions as a beater and as a lock component (in the form of mana denial through the eating of power) I can conceive of few cards, if any, that are not already in my maindeck that I would want one more of in the main in place of Karn.