[TOG] that is really Smmenen's lightly metagamed - Help?

[jazzykat]

So I know I got your attention just using steve's name in my post:

After playing UR landstill last Friday and laughing a lot as I beat up on aggro hardcore (not big O) and lost to dragon (you knew that was coming didn't you) I decided to go back to the guy with the award winning smile.

OK, the deck list:

23 Mana Sources
---------------
5 moxen
1 lotus
1 mana crypt (most nescessary and hot props go to this, get rid of your sol ring!!!)
4 Fetches
1 LOA
4 Underground
3 Trops
2 Volcanics
1 Island
1 Strip (thinking of putting another mox monkey, or a fire/ice in this slot)



10; 1cc
---------------
3 duress
1 Mindtwist
4 Brainstorm
1 Mox Monkey
1 Ancestral Recall

11; 2 cc
---------------
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timewalk
4 drains
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Merchant Scroll (I am luke warm about this...ancestral is cool though)

11; 3cc
---------------
3 smiley
3 wish
2 deed
2 intuition
1 will

5; 5cc
-------------------
4 forces
1 GUSH

Teh Board
1 Deed (intuitionable, I find it is a great crutch against match ups I found almost impossible to win against, ie. really fast weeny beat down)
1 Vamp
1 BEB
2 REB
1 FIRESTORM (Dial 1-800-OH-SHITE, and clear the board)
1 oxidize
1 artifact mutation
1 R&R
3 coffin purge (there is only one or 2 dragon decks in my area but they do well, so I use the full compliment to pwn them)
1 Fire/Ice
1 Berserk

My meta has about 25% aggro(wee men, burn, and artifact fat), 20% combo, 40% control of sorts(including 1 or 2 slavers), 15% others(gay/r, random jank, GAT)

I am currently having trouble beating big O, which I know this deck should pwn.

I am also never really sure about when to break standstill and especially
hidden gibbons.

I have had experience with standstill, and as long as there is no immediate pressure I build up my hand and will ideally cast a brainstorm on my opponents end step when they have 6 or 7 cards in hand, and I have hopefully built up a few.

So any tips on tweaking the deck or with the problems posed above will be greatly appreciated.

[BreathWeapon]

Your SB could probably use a couple of changes. F/I is a wasted SB slot if your using Firestorm. You have BEB to remove Welders, Pups/Cadets, Shamans and Dragons etc. REB kills Fish/Phids and Artifact Removal destroys FAT, so what else is really left in the 2 Toughness range that Firestorm can't handle?

The 3rd Deed seems like overkill unless your playing against Workshops all day long. Now that Tog has Firestorm in its SB to PWN Budget Aggro, I doubt you'll ever make serious use of it.

You forgot to list 1 of your choices.

I would remove the Strip Mine and replace it with a Volcanic Island. Tog has a hard time maintaining Red, and I think its absolutley critical vs the Workshop match ups to have acces to R&R and Artifact Mutation in the face of their LD.

This is the last version I left off with, if its of any help.

Denial (12)
4xForce of Will
4xManadrain
4xDuress

Draw (10)
4xAccumulated Knowledge
4xBrainstorm
1xAncestral Recall
1xGush

Control (5)
3xPsychatog
2xPernicious Deed

Search (7)
3xCunning Wish
2xIntuition
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Bombs (3)
1xMindtwist
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xTime Walk

Mana (23)
1xLibrary of Alexandria
4xFetch Lands
4xUnderground Sea
3xTropical Island
3xVolcanic Island
1xIsland
6xLoMoxen
1xMana Crypt

SB
1xFact or Fiction
1xVampiric Tutor
1xBeserk
1xFirestorm
3xCoffin Purge
1xRack and Ruin
1xArtifact Mutation
1xOxidize
4xRed Elemental Blast
1xBlue Elemental Blast

The lone Gorilla Shaman isn't as useful as the 2nd Deed MD is, you had might as well get that Welder while your at it, and i'm still an advocate for Mystical Tutor.

[TheSupaKorean]

The list looks solid but I recommend keeping the strip.  The problem I have with lack of Fire/Ice and strips is Maze of Ith.  You pretty much scoop if a maze hits the board.

[BreathWeapon]

No, all you have to do is Time Walk around it. F/I is a crutch, in a pinch you can even Yawgwill for consecutive walks if need be.

[TheSupaKorean]

No, all you have to do is Time Walk around it. F/I is a crutch, in a pinch you can even Yawgwill for consecutive walks if need be.

Thanks for the time walk trick.  Just seems a little too convenient, but tog does seem to draw everything on earth.  

Guess I won't hate playing Landstill with maze of ith in the sideboards as much.  Still going to be tough to push through a maze or two.  Gonna test this matchup post sideboard with a friend and see how it goes.

[JuJu]

You could also use Ice on Fire/Ice for the Maze of Ith problem, and the Strip mine isn't only for Maze of Ith, you could also use it for the lone basic when you side in B2B or for the opposing LoA in a control battle, I recommend keeping the Strip, or at least relegating it to the Sideboard.

[BreathWeapon]

Micro managing the Tog Mirror is a really bad idea. I've completely PWNed the versions with Back to Basics and Xantid Swarms with my 4xREB count and Firestorm. 7 RED sources is a must vs soo many decks, you simply don't have the luxurey of adding the Strip Mine for the what if Tog Mirror scenarios over a 3rd Volcanic. Smmenen greatly exascerbated this match up, IMO.

@SupaK,
If you walk into Mazes of Ith a lot then by all meens use the F/I in place of the FoF or a REB. Tog should be metagamed for your specific field at all times. I don't think its necessary by any meens, but it can't hurt either.

[jazzykat]

One thing. The mox monkey helps you to win in the slaver matchup. If you can destroy all their moxes and stopping goblin tinkerer, then you don't have to worry that much about slaver, because it will be harder to find six mana.

The best players that I play against play workshop so I think the deeds are a good idea. I am going to relegate either a strip mine, a reb, or a FOF to the sideboard but I am leaning more towards FOF (and I don't really believe in wishable draw, its just personal preference). I kind of like the fire and ice as well.

Thanks for the help guys, but I think I will do fine no matter what I choose. I was playing it and it made me feel more comfortable to play the deck the way I had set it up and that is huge for me. We all have different play styles and I really like using the deeds to clean up messes.

I also have not encountered a competent tog player in my area so I am not conerened about the mirror.

Thanks to everyone who responded, I will write a report if I do well.

[BreathWeapon]

What I can't really figure out is how the Shaman is better than the 2nd Deed, considering it kills the Welder to and has umpteen other uses. Granted its symmetrical, but its a hell of a lot more flexible to. Oh well.

[jpmeyer]

Because you never need to Deed twice

[darkh0rse]

In the Deed vs Shaman argument one thing that is missed is the number of times that you can autowin vs an opponent who kept the artifact mana heavy hand when you have an early shaman.  I know that everyone would ideally like to outplay their opponents but having "I win" cards for certain situations is deffinately worthwile IMO.  There is also the rare situation where you need a random mana dump from your drains, deed helps you once, but as long as your opponent has even a mox in play you can always use your shaman as an excess mana dump (you can target any artifact multiple times for the uniformed).
One card that I have always been a strong believer in for Hulk and any other deck running blue is Future Sight.  This card is so amazingly powerful that I feel it is warranted despite its steep cost.  You simply do not lose if you untap with futuresight in play, the number of cards it grants you is superior to any other draw spell in the format and it will prompt concessions upon its resolution against many Keeper and opposing Tog players.  I played it in the GenCon T1 Championships and never lost a game where it hit play.  
I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts/comments regarding Future Sight in Hulk.
-Alex

[Mixing Mike]

Future Sight costs 2UUU.  That means (sans Sapphire and Time Walk), you HAVE to play this turn 3, and tap out mind you.  It's too much of a tempo loss, and the engine is fine as it is.  No Hulk deck should EVER run Future Sight IMO.  And since it's an opnion, keep all flames in the stove will ya?

To beat wennie beatdown, you have to play beatdown, and then just Berserk over their stuff.  Forget about their board position, and just draw cards and go broken on them.  I'll usually Mana Drain a 2-3cc spell and go Intuition or use crazy draw spells.  Breaking a Standstill is best when they have 7 cards, and they're in their end step, so they have to discard 3 cards.  Hiddon Gibbons is hard to tell when the break it.  I usually wait untill I have a way to find a 'Tog or Deed (FYI, I only play 1 Deed).

The lone Gorilla Shaman isn't as useful as the 2nd Deed MD is.

 

Yes it is.  It lets you beat Chalice for 3, which is usually game.

No, all you have to do is Time Walk around it. F/I is a crutch, in a pinch you can even Yawgwill for consecutive walks if need be.

Mutiple 'Togs also solves this problem.

The mox monkey helps you to win in the slaver matchup. If you can destroy all their moxes and stopping goblin tinkerer, then you don't have to worry that much about slaver, because it will be harder to find six mana.

How does that work?  You have one Shaman, they have 4 Welders.  I also hate tapping 3 mana to kill a Sol Ring or a Mana Vault.  10 Mana in Prison-slaver is very easily obtained.  Control-slaver can easily stall you out untill they reach 6 mana, then 4 to activate it next turn, and Combo-slaver can easily be just as fast as you are.  Anything with Mindslavers in it is a bad matchup for Hulk.

[darkh0rse]

There is also the lotus to get it out quicker.
Maybe I am playing the deck considerably different than others but against keeper or other control type decks I try to play the better control deck setting up game breaking spells (intuition for AK, Future Sight, and Yawgmoths WIll) with Duress while steadily increasing my manabase.  
I will conceed the point that it is normally not a worthwile card to draw against aggro decks, but then again neither is the second manadrain since you normally drain their first 2-3cc spell (like you had said) to set up the intuition/AK then crush them with a Tog making every non-card draw spell just a +1.5/+1.5 to tog.  
If your metagame is control heavy I believe it is worth a try.  

-ALex[/quote]

[jazzykat]

Well I lost to landstill first round in the tourney last night.

First game, I was reall land light and getting very nervous about having enough land, so I cast ancestral with only a force back up. My oppent misidrected then mana drained and that equaled game.

The next game, I push a tog through, instead of a mind twist *shrug* I was being stupid and greedy. Even though my opponent was out of counter spells, he dropped a disk and a crypt the next turn.


second round.
I beat a mono blue concoction, but the guy made a whole bunch of questionable plays so I really don't think it showed how good I played.

third round
I concede to my friend (boasnapes) playing big O and get subway.

fourth round (obviously doesn't matter)
I get pummelled by suicide black. He breaks every single land I have in play, I duress away a null rod only to have another cast, and he casts chalice for 0 second game. WTF! (he was in a mediocre bracket though so I will not be playing sui next week )

My team mates of the alliance go on to win first and second in the tourney and we split up a box (my only good magic skill is picking good team mates).

Personally the I believe there should be 1 shaman, 1 strip mine, 1 deed MD. The strip is too key vs. LOA in control matchups to cut.

[JuJu]

*cough* my exact words *cough*

EDIT: Something constructive.
If you fear the Landstill match and it's abundant in your meta, then Tsabo's web might be something to look into, of course the Back to Basics work to but it can Rebed. Also FireStorm should be really helpful in the O.Stompy matchup, being able to clear practically everything except the Flashbacked Wurms and huge mongrels (which Deed take care of nicely) The same goes for Madness. But both matchups are very hard, being almost Aggro-Combo kinds of decks. The Strip Mine should be main, and The Deed also, the Shaman I'm still skeptical about though.

[BreathWeapon]

Because you never need to Deed twice

I was thinking along the lines of seeing it twice as often, not playing it twice in one game. Cards do get countered and discarded in Magic, and trying to Yawgwill a Deed back is rather unwieldly. I also think Tog needs more removal MD, because Welder/Crypt sucks ass and Dragon's Xantids/Verdants are incredibly tourblesome. You can't strictly rely on your Wish Board to save your ass all the time. In critical match ups, you want that Deed before turn 5.

Maybe there is a better card than the 2nd Deed for the singleton slot, but I just don't think its the Shaman. I'd be more apt to toss in FoF or even Regrowth

@Chalice for 3, I have never seen a Chalice for 3 ever vs Tog. This justification is equivalent to the "Monster in the Closet" argument, it just doesn't happen vs good Tog players with any regularity to worry about it.