Workshop Slavery vs Control Slaver: Which is the stronger?

[tehmajickguy]

Recently, I've found myself playing a lot of Slavery, but I've been unable to determine which of the 2 is the better overall deck. Both decks have won power tournies this year, and both decks have strong matches versus Tog decks. First, a couple of decklists to use as references:

Ray Robillard (iamfishman)
1st Place 2/14/04

1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar
1 Pentavus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Black Lotus
! Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Goblin Welder
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Time Twister
1 Wind Fall
1 Tinker
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
2 Cunning Wish
1 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
3 Guilded Lotus
3 Mindslaver
SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Fire/Ice
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
4 Annul
1 Pyroblast
1 Mystical Tutor


TheAtogLord
1st Place 2/22/04

// Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
4 Goblin Welder
// Counter
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
// Drawing
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
3 Fire/Ice
// Other
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
2 Cunning Wish
// Black
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
// Mana
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
// Land
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Shattering Pulse
SB: 2 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Hibernation
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast

These are probably the best to examples to use for the sake of this topic. Both builds are very well tuned, and have won power in the past month. The basic pros/cons I can see for each of these deck is as follows:

Wokshop Slavery:

Pros: Workshop allows the deck to power out its important spells as quickly as possible.

The main deck Chalices make for a very good match against TPS.

Has as much card drawing as just about any combo deck in the format.

Cons: Seems to have a more vulnerable mana base to the 5 strips.

Seems to be more vulnerable to aggro decks.


Control Slaver:

Pros: Can efficiently abuse Mana Drain.

The mana base allows for Blood Moon to be run sideboard/less vulnerable to strip effects.

Fire/Ice main allows for better matches against FCG and Gobvantage.

Cons: Doesn't have Chalices main, making it weaker against TPS.

Fewer win conditions, Slavers, and card drawing.

I'd to get some feedback on thsi topic, so that I can better understand these decks.

[Zelc]

I've played Slavery quite a bit on Apprentice, and I prefer Toad's revised combo slaver list, with the possible inclusion of Platinum Angel over Karn and a Fact or Fiction over the Stroke of Genius in the sideboard.  Here it is:

Lands -- 16
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef

Mana Artifacts -- 12
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
3 Gilded Lotus

Control Elements -- 15
2 Cunning Wish
2 Fire/Ice
3 Mindslaver
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

Draw Engine -- 11
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Minds Eye
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
4 Thirst for Knowledge

Dudes -- 6
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Pentavus
4 Goblin Welder

Sideboard -- 15
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Capsize
2 Fire/Ice
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormods Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast

The maindecked Fire/Ices are very handy, and the extra win condition and the Windfall aren't that necessary.  By the time you want to cast Windfall, there's a good chance that hands have been dumped.


The biggest reason to play combo slaver over control slaver is, quite simply, the Chalices.  They do so much more than hurt combo.  Against blue control or decks packing Null Rod, one of the best things one can do is to slap down that Chalice for two ASAP.  With Workshops, Ancient Tombs, and full power, the Chalice for two often get played on turn 1.  In fact, the game against Big O or GPR seems to be a race to a Chalice for 2 against the Null Rod/Ground Seal.  Chalice does really bad things to Fish, and it also can shut down Food Chain Goblin's Recruiters and Piledrivers.  Of course, one can't forget its uses against combo.  If nothing else, you can play a Chalice for 0 as Welder bait or to power the Academy.

However, combo slaver is somewhat prone to more inconsistancies than control slaver.  There are fewer high costing spells, and Mana Drains mean less hate is getting through (that is, if your opponent was smart enough to diversify the CCs of the hate).  Additionally, the control version can better protect the Platinum Angel.

One must remember, however, that while they have similar names and cards, control slaver and combo slaver are two different animals.  Control slaver is a control deck, not unlike keeper or tog.  Combo slaver plays more like a prison deck.  Just pick whichever style suits you best and run with that.

[Rico Suave]

I think if you have inconsistency problems, use Brainstorm.  

Seems to be more vulnerable to aggro decks.

I don't get it.  Chalice is a wrecking ball against aggro decks.  Also, with Workshops the deck is able to quickly pump out large fat that dominate the board, which puts the aggro player into a role they are not equipped to play.

[tehmajickguy]

When I say aggro decks, I'm refering to Madness, Big O, and FCG. While Chalice for 1 is a good play against Madness, especially post boarding, it doesn't totally shut the deck down. The same can be said for FCG. While Chalices against aggro can be huge, the aggro decks nowadays seem to have more varied CC, making Chalice not as effective as it otherwise could be.

[Toad]

Chalice still has a great impact against Madness, Oshawa Stompy or Food Chain Goblins. Chalice for 2 basically shuts down all the hate these decks will bring against you, like Null Rod, Artifact Mutation or Root Maze, along with some key cards (Wild Mongrell, Goblin Recruiter, Survival of the Fittest). Meanwhile, you have no 2cc cards, so Chalice for 2 is an autoplay as soon as possible. Chalice is your proactive anwser to hate.

Zelc's list is really close to what I've been running lately. Mine doesn't have Mind's Eye and some other slight differences. You should consider Chain of Vapor over Capsize, as it's a win condition under Mindslaver.

[Smash]

Chalice still has a great impact against Madness, Oshawa Stompy or Food Chain Goblins. Chalice for 2 basically shuts down all the hate these decks will bring against you, like Null Rod, Artifact Mutation or Root Maze, along with some key cards (

Root maze cost G chief toad.

[Rico Suave]

He meant Ground Seal, actually.

[Toad]

I meant Ground Seal. My bad.

Edit : Whoa Rico read my mind  

[JuJu]

Actually, this question intrigued me also a while back(2-3 weeks ago) until I talked to Smmenen about it on IRC. His answer was rather simple, Abuse of Chalices in the Workshop build make it stronger. Of course I couldn't have taken that answer and make it universally correct to every problem that each deck has. I haven't found a concrete answer to your question, but both decks die to Null Rod, so play Tog with Null Rod and you win  :lol:

[Toad]

play Tog with Null Rod and you win  :lol:

If you are playing the Mana Drain build, you are playing Tog.
Control Slaver = Tog, with different cards.

[rvs]

play Tog with Null Rod and you win  :lol:

If you are playing the Mana Drain build, you are playing Tog.
Control Slaver = Tog, with different cards.

That's just wrong french boy, since Mindslaver can't go Aggro (-Combo) on somebody when it needs to (at least the mana drain (=control) build can't). I'd say in the matchup against Tog also, it puts Tog in the aggro role.

[Toad]

Well both decks have

* a 1-turn clock win condition: Psychatog or Mindslaver.

* a draw engine based on a 3cc card: Intuition or Thirst for Knowledge.

* the same counter base.

* a solution to counterspells: Duress or Goblin Welder.

* Cunning Wishes.

* enchantment-based non-basic hate: Back to Basics or Blood Moon.

Etc ...

Tog and Control Slavery are really similar.

[runT1ME]

Slaver seems dependant on the deck your playing against.  Perhaps its my inexperience, but i've played aggro decks where slavering them does almost nothing.  In fact, most of the time I play aggro I would rather be doing Pent tricks then mindslaver tricks.  Tog seems to have a much easier time with aggro.

[Wollblad]

The control version has ha weakness in that it seldom can cast it's expensive artifacts, in most cases you must Welder them up. But here is one problem, you don't have many inexpensive artifacts to Weld down. Another problem is that you much well can draw a start hand with som expensive artifacts and no way to get rid of them. The summation is that the deck is a bit inconsistent.

One thought on the Workshop build: If you don't know what you are playing against, which is not uncommon in large tournaments, you don't know what to cast Chalice for in the first match which can much well cost you the match. Isn't for example Trinisphere enough to slow your opponent down or is it too bad synnergy fith FoW?

[Rico Suave]

One thought on the Workshop build: If you don't know what you are playing against, which is not uncommon in large tournaments, you don't know what to cast Chalice for in the first match which can much well cost you the match. Isn't for example Trinisphere enough to slow your opponent down or is it too bad synnergy fith FoW?

My default is always Chalice for 2.  Not only do you have virtually no cards at that slot, but it is game-breaking against many of the top decks in the format.  It hits Mana Drain, Standstill, Survival, Null Rod, Mongrel, Mask, AK, removal, and a boatload of other key cards.  

The other option is, when going first, just drop Chalice at 0 to stop an explosive start.  

Occassionally you can set it at other numbers, but those are very situation dependent.  For example, dropping it for 3 against Tog can seal the game up if they don't run an answer at another casting cost.

It should be noted that not only does Trinisphere have bad synergy with Force, but it makes your draw-7's less explosive.  Ideally you want to drop Slaver and use it immediately after a draw-7, which is hard to do if your acceleration costs 3 a piece.

[The Atog Lord]

Let me start by saying that this is a very interesting discussion. I have been rolling this around in my head for some time now, and it is interesting to hear what other people are thinking.

Control Slaver = Tog, with different cards

I understand how you may be inclined to draw a comparison between these decks, but I must argue that they have some fundamental differences. For one thing, Control Slaver has a much higher threat count than Tog. Goblin Welders, the artifact creatures, and Mindslavers themselves all constitute serious threats in the Control Slaver deck. This high-number of "must counters," combined with the intense card drawing of Control Slaver, leads to a deck which has a strong game against most blue-based control decks. Further, Control Slaver has a very favorable matchup against Tog, which itself is a strong argument in its favor.

[thecapn]

The control version has a weakness in that it seldom can cast it's expensive artifacts, in most cases you must Welder them up. But here is one problem, you don't have many inexpensive artifacts to Weld down. Another problem is that you much well can draw a start hand with som expensive artifacts and no way to get rid of them. The summation is that the deck is a bit inconsistent.

I disagree.  Mana Drain mana is an excellent way to deal with the large casting cost cards present in the deck, and you do run all the other artifact sources that the workshop build does.  Also, there aren't really that many high casting cost cards: Pentavus, Platinum Angel, Mindslaver x2, possibly Chalice, and Memory Jar.  You argue that you have no way to get rid of unwanted cards in your opening hand, but 4 Thirst for Knowledge and 3-4 Brainstorm coupled with 4 Fetchlands smooths the draws out as well as or better than most other deck's engines.  I also find that because your mana curve is more diverse than Workshop Slaver, Chalices are often Welder bait.  I think the high amount of card drawing combined with the explosive potential of Mana Drain make the deck really consistent.

To get back on the topic at hand, I don't think the problem with Control Slaver is it's inconsistency or some fundamental weakness; it's an excellent deck.  I just feel that Workshop Slaver is more explosive than Control Slaver is solid, making it a bigger threat.

Peace,
  Jason

[JuJu]

Not only does Trinisphere have poor synergy with FoW and the Draw 7ens but it has very bad synergy with MindSlaver; You're trying to kill your opponent with his own cards, Trinisphere doesn't look you/him do that so it makes the deck bad, much like the Blood Moons maindeck did, if anything Trinisphere COULD be relegated to the sideboard, but then you would have to cut it for better bombs in the matchups that Trinisphere could be helpful.

EDIT: One thing that AtogLord didn't mention was the tempo that Drain gives, in a sense Mana Drain itself is a must counter because of the enormous amount of Tempo it can give.

[defector]

I ran Trinsphere in my control slaver and workshop slaver buolds.  I didn't like it a lot in either, but it's out for good in control.  FOW is to big to self detruct.  In workshop, its worth testing with more, but I don't really like it.
thanx
defector

[darkh0rse]

From the little amount of Slavery I have seen I would personally go with the Control Slavery Version.  Both decks have cards which allow you to make mid to late game plays in the early game (workshop and manadrain) but the Manadrain adds the advantage of just stopping your opponents biggest threats while generating a huge tempo advantage for you.
One other thing to consider is that where as a good opponent might play around Mana Drain if you have UU up (generating virtual tempo if you dont have it in hand) there is no real way to capitalize on your opponent not know whether or not you have workshop in your hand after the initial 1-3 turns.  So it would seem to me that as you play better and better players through the day it would be to your advantage to play the Control version.
I do have one question for AtogLord, you have said before that many of the aggro decks are poor matchups for the control version, have your tested with a single Firestorm in your SB?  It would seem to me that many times when you do not have the time to thirst/welder a slaver/pentavus/or angel into play due to the aggressive position of your opponent that you might be able to Wish for firestorm, discard artifacts that would be worth weldering into play and buy yourself a signifigant amount of time as well.  This is of course purely theoretical but seems like it is worth at least testing IMO.

-Alex

[jazzykat]

How does everyone feel about lightning greeves in general. I just see welders get blown up before they can do anything, I know it can still be bolted in response but...., or maybe anger (call me the jank meister) because getting to weld a turn sooner is huge!

[The Atog Lord]

In general, I believe that Workshop Slaver and Control Slaver are fundamentally different decks. Yes, they both tap into the power of Goblin Welder and Thirst for Knowledge. They can both use Mindslaver recursion. They can both generate quick mana, either with Mishra's Workshop or Mana Drain.

Yet, they attempt to play two rather different games. In his excellent article "Who's the Beatdown?" Mike Flores set forth the idea that at a given time in a match, one deck is the beatdown deck and the other is the control deck. Workshop Slaver begins in the role of the beatdown deck; it forces its opponent to deal with its threats immediately. However, Control Slaver starts the game in just the opposite role. It begins expecting to spend the first few turns dealing with the opponent's deck, all the while establishing itself. Eventually, Control Slaver shifts into the beatdown deck. This is not to say that one is particularly better than the other; rather, this is how I believe the decks fundamentally differ.

@ darkh0rse,

Firestorm is an interesting idea. When I expected Suicide Black to be a large component of a metagame, I considered Firestorm as a way to decimate an opponent's board for a single mana. I remember the card from Trix, where it was crushing in conjunction with Necropotence.

For that tournament, I ended up opting for Lightning Bolt over Firestorm. The Bolt does not require cards to be discarded to it and always hits for three. However, you have a great point; Firestorm has excellent synergy with Goblin Welder. It probably is worth testing.

[rvs]

The Atog Lord is dead on on his analysis of the difference between the Slaver-builds. However, I'd say control-slaver NEVER shifts into the beatdown role. There is no matchup where you should try and play beatdown. Getting creatures ready to take home the advantage is not the same thing as shifting into the beatdown role, especially not when you're talking about the theory. At least, that's what I think of it.