TnT dilemma

[Razvan]

At the beginning of the year, Steve M. suggested that TnT is one of the decks that will flourish this year. So far, I have suffered nothing but disappointment.

Normally, I would chalk this up to incompetence, but the deck is fairly simple. Yes, there are decisions, but none of the warrant too much though. It usually involves playing around Mana Drain and Wasteland.

Okay, for starters, here is a decklist I am using:

12 Big things

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
2 Myr Enforcers
2 Triskelion

12 Utility creatures

4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn
1 Soldevi Simulancrum / 1 Masticore
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Platinum Angel
1 Squee

9 Utility Spells

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Memory Jar

27 Mana

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen

Sideboard is standard... REBs plus extra metagame stuff

Problem #1: Viridian Zealot

This thing replaced the Elvish Lyrist maindeck, and so far, it hasn't been performing too well. 1GGG as a Naturalize is just too freaking much, especially since the deck only has 10 green sources, plus Black Lotus. Anyone else have any sort of suggestions?

Solution #1:

Remove Zealot, add Lyrist?

Problem #2: Not enough fat

I added 2 Myr Enforcers, and still, it was not enough. Often, I would be holding near-infinite mana, and would be in a top-decking mode for either a Survival or any other creature. Not in a situation you want to be against any sort of deck.

Solution #2

Add fat? But what to take out? If this deck is to operate as a Toolbox in addition to the fat, then obviously this is a problem? I am thinking of removing the Wastelands, and adding Tree of Tales (to temporarily fix #1 too), and going to 4 Myr Enforcers. Yes/no/maybe so?

Problem #3: Obviously not enough card-drawing

Memory Jar and Survival are the only card drawing available to this deck, and even Wheel of Fortune sometimes isn't enough to add to it.

Solution #3

Add black to the deck. This could be costly, but adding Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will might be a solution. After you expand your fat, cast Yawgmoth's Will to get it all back in one fell swoop?

Demonic Tutor for Jar or Survival?

Ugh.

And the deck has potential.

Oh, and if you wonder about the metagame, yeah, so do I. This is Toronto. It's the most chaotic one in the world. If a deck exists, someone is playing it. Sideboarding... I don't even really bother anymore. Other than Red Elemental Blasts, I really can't make heads or tails of it.

[bel_riose]

I've played TnT since 2002 and I think it cant flourish now: Stacker and/or prison are better at the moment.
But I still play TnT cause it's the funniest deck I ever played.
That's what I think:

I will add green mana instead of colorless: I will have 3 forests and 2 mountains (or 3-1, or 2-2) then 4 fetch, 4 taigas, 4 MW, 3 wastes and a strip: this will cut mana vault, a waste and (I know that's sad) the monolith.
With 7+4+mox green mana sources you could play easy the zealot.

I will kill enforcers: I've tested it (with 4x and 2x) and I think that 1st turn 7cc spell in hand is way too bad: you have to play it for 4 maybe in turn 3.

I play with 2 Solemn Simulacra and a masticore, and I'm happy expecially with Solemn Simulacrum: an early one can give you the un-wastable mana you need (but you must run basic lands) and can do nice tricks with welders.

I played genesis a lot but 3 no workshop mana during upkeep is too high to being playable.

I run wheel of fortune and not the jar but I will cut it: TnT is not based on card advantage but on tempo and you really dont need 7 cards in hand (in early game you have to play fats and SotF and you dont have 3mana to use, in mid game you dont want to fill your opponent hand with counters and instants and jar and wheel are great madness activators).

Instead I've added 2 silvan lybraries and maybe I will add the 3rd: looking at 3 cards with our deck I think is enough to topdeck something cool and with fetches/SotF and Solemn Simulacra you shuffle a lot.

In SB I will add 4 chalice of the void if pillars cant cope with your opponent and maybe blood moons.

That's what I think...  

[Razvan]

Sylvan Library is a very good idea. As they say, can do!

I still like the Jar. And Wheel of Fortune isn't quite as good. I still think of Jar as: Tap and sacrifice to draw 7 cards yourself. So Wheel's out.

I do like the 2 Simulacrums, but this still hasn't solved my problem with the lack of fat. Hm...

I am not liking cutting down 2 artifact sources like that (Vault and Monolith). They really help churn out a turn 1 Big Thing.

Let me see the new version, with the Sylvan. Bold is in, Italics are out:

11 Big things

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
2 Triskelion
1 Myr Enforcers

11 Utility creatures

4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn
1 Soldevi Simulancrum
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Anger
1 Platinum Angel
1 Squee
1 Masticore

-1 Genesis
-1 Viridian Zealot

11 Utility Spells

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Sylvan Library
3 Blood Moon
1 Memory Jar

-4 Pyrostatic Pillar

27 Mana

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen

Heh, I like the 11-11-11 distribution. How about this?

[raye]

Hi

I've had some success recently with TnT, including 3rd at the big recent Toronto (your home town right?) Type1.  Here is what I play.

1 Black Lotus
1 Elf Replica
4 Juggernaut
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Masticore
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sundering Titan
1 Sol Ring
2 Su-Chi
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
3 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Forest
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Naturalize
3 Pyroblast
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt

You will notice it runs more disruption and less fat and acceleration.

Regarding your build, I would recommend you consider the following changes.

Sylvan Library is good. But it is slowish. You need time for it to impact your ability to win. The Pillars you took out, on the other hand, are huge threats if you can resolve them early against some decks. They are about your only chance at beating a Storm deck too.

I like your addition of Blood Moon in your next post. I would definitely recommend it if you did not already add it as it wins games.

Another artifact mana source you should consider is Mana Crypt. It is just better than Mana Vault. I don't run it myself. I am not comfortable with it being all life lossy and all but I know I should.

I see you did add another basic land to your mana base. That is good but I think you should add a Mountain too and I myself prefer having lots of basic Forests but 2 might be enough... maybe.

As for the fat your run, I have to question the Enforcer. Not that big. Overcosted. If you have a ton of artifacts out, you can cast something without affinity anyways. And he is useless if you don't have a lot of mana: say the early game when you want first turn fat.

I would also recommend you add Duplicant. Spot removal for TnT is amazing. I also have added Sundering Titan and he has won games too.

Masticore is a good addition to your utility creatures. Removing Genesis is good too. He is too mana intensive and slow to be very useful. If you want something like Zealot, how about Elf Replica? Reusable but not really faster and also takes less Green. My Replica slot might be replaced with a Viashino Heretic. My Gorilla Shaman has a hard time killing larger things. You should consider running a Shaman too.

The sideboard I use has been really good for me. Try something like that in your testing to see if it works for you too. It might be a good place to start.

Good luck with your build.

[Razvan]

Ok, I will reply to the rest tomorrow, raye, but:

1) Was it the Dueling Grounds championship on the 21st of february? I missed it because of a bad back (really bad back)... dang it.

2) I took the Mana Crypt off by mistake when I put the stuff on here. It actually is in the build:).

3) Duplicant is a good idea.

4) Sundering Titan is interesting.

5) Viashino Heretic is a pretty good idea, actually. Hm... a very good idea.

Okay, more talk tomorrow.

[bel_riose]

So, that's my list:

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Triskelion

4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn
1 Anger
1 Platinum Angel
1 Squee

2 Sylvan Library
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Wheel of Fortune

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen

but I want to test some changes:

-1 wheel of fortune
-1 windswept heath

+1 sylvan library OR +1 Quirion ranger
+1 duplicant

I've already played duplicant, and it's good. But against creature based deck, like madness or sligh, it's not so useful and your welder get bolted/incinerated/fireiced very fast so you have to hardcast it. Then it cant target keeper tokens and roar of the wurm. With smash you have to guess the good time.
I like to test Sentinel from Legends: it's 4cc and it's an awesome blocker (better than karn).

I dont think sylvan library can really slow you down: I want to quit using jar and wheel and I think library can fix my draws.

I played the ranger before packing the pillars and was cool with phirexian colossus. I think I cant start playing it again to protect green mana.

My SB is:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Artifact Mutation OR Naturalize

[Wollblad]

As I see it, the decks biggest problem is that fist turn fat creature isn't a threat any more. Combo decks just play there things and win anyhow. In light of this, should Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere warrent inclusion just to slow the game down so much that your fat creatures becomes a threat fast enough? With Solemn Simulacrum and Ranger you should get mana in enough amount too not be bothered to much yourself.

[Cpkrug]

i was just wondering if anyone has tried running less wastelands and more basics.  The basics work well with solemn and there seems to be enough nonbasic hate with blood moons and the titan.  I am trying this now but i just started playing the deck so i would like to hear what other people think. Thanks

[Lord of the Goats]

i was just wondering if anyone has tried running less wastelands and more basics.  The basics work well with solemn and there seems to be enough nonbasic hate with blood moons and the titan.  I am trying this now but i just started playing the deck so i would like to hear what other people think. Thanks

4 basics is the magic number. you really don't need any more than that because with 4 basics you can cast fat under b2b even if you have no artifact mana. wastelands are just really really good right now, and i wouldn't cut a single one.  if i was going to cut wastes i'd probably be cutting them for spells rather than lands.

[Razvan]

Back to Basics is a strange customer. I have really only seen it play in mono-blue and some trully bizarre versions of Tog. The former is rarely a problem for TnT, especially if going first.

Tog is an eternal problem, and if they drop it, I doubt you can get to 4 basics before they kill you.

I think they are more important to be able to cast Welder under Wasteland disruption after first turn.

And yes, I think Wastelands are very important, but I am debating going down to 3 of them and adding one more mountain. Argh... 28+ mana and we still can't fit all of it in:).

Duplicant. So needed. The more I see it used (against me ), the more I realize how bloody powerful it is. With Welders, it kills essentially everything with the power of a tap. *shudder*

[Lord of the Goats]

Back to Basics is a strange customer. I have really only seen it play in mono-blue and some trully bizarre versions of Tog. The former is rarely a problem for TnT, especially if going first.

Tog is an eternal problem, and if they drop it, I doubt you can get to 4 basics before they kill you.

with jp's tog sporting b2b i'd expect to see a bit more b2b now... although i did post that before carl and steve put red back in their lists.  honestly in my testing it's not at all uncommon to fetch out all 4 basics in a game against tog and not have the game decided yet.

[the_mullet]

myrs suck ass....

[Razvan]

with jp's tog sporting b2b i'd expect to see a bit more b2b now... although i did post that before carl and steve put red back in their lists. honestly in my testing it's not at all uncommon to fetch out all 4 basics in a game against tog and not have the game decided yet.

Incidentally... what would happen if a B2B was in play with a Blood Moon? I am almost sure that Blood Moon doesn't change the non-basic lands into "Basic" Mountains, just non-basic Mountains. Is this true?

If not... it could be interesting.

[jpmeyer]

All the non-basics would be non-basic Mountains which wouldn't untap.