Impose Order (now Sapience)

[Ephraim]

I'm going to restart the 24 hour clock on this one.

[rvs]

I'm just sorry it sucks now. Compare this to Unsummon and Counterspell, yet this is much more narrow. I still think the original was FINE!

If anything, make the entwine cost 1U. 1UUU is still a hefty price for both those effects.

[Ephraim]

I did compare it to Unsummon (well, Boomerang) and Counterspell. When not facing red or green, it is worthless. When facing red or green it is both Counterspell and/or Boomerang (okay, it can't bounce lands) on the same card. I thought it was very appropriate that it should have the same casting cost as either of those spells.

I suppose I could lower the Entwine cost to . I agree, that makes this totally unsplashable, unless you expect to put it on Isochron Scepter every time. What say you, people? Is the card "blue" enough to merit a possible {U}{U} in the casting cost? Does the card now, as MoreFling insists, suck? Would it be appreciably better at {U}/{1}{U}? Would it be too good?

[Matt]

The card does not suck at all.

[Ocifer]

It would be fine at either cost. It definetely doesn't suck as is. I'd say it's a plenty "blue" ability to warrant UUU in the CC, like you've pointed out: it's both counterspell and boomerang at once, but very blue abilities. I think that this should not be a splashable card at all, it's terribly blue in nature. I'd go with the UUU1 cost and be done with it.

[Ephraim]

I am going to leave the card as-is, then, and PM for it to be closed, when the 24-hour clock runs out tonight.

[rvs]

It definately does suck, here's why:

The original intended mirrors are cheaper solutions, and a lot more flexible. Why do you think BEB costs U and CSpells costs UU? It doesn't make sense to overcost this compared to the original just because Isochron Scepter exists. The existance of Fire/Ice didn't stop them from printing scepter now did it?

It does NOT make sense to overcost this. I would go as far as saying that this should in fact be less prohibitive to use then the original, because of the inherent inflexibility.

[Ephraim]

Of course this has to cost more than Blue Elemental Blast. It affects two colours and can be entwined. That alone requires some increase in casting cost. Just like spells with buyback cost more to cast than their non-buyback equivalents (ie: compare Raise Dead and Disturbed Burial). The presence of Entwine slightly increases the base casting cost. As for the entwine cost, I doubt that is out of line. Yes, this card is slightly worse than I would have made it if Isochron Scepter did not exist, but not a whole lot more.

[rvs]

I still think my suggestion works. Noone has made an argument why UU and Entwine U1 wouldn't work. Scepter alone is not an argument.

[Ephraim]

I don't think you've made a very good case for Entwine being ridiculously overcosted, either. In my opinion, {U}/{1}{U} is entering the realm of spells that can only be played in a monocolour deck. That's not bad, but I don't think it's necessary to cut this card down that much. It'd be more powerful in the decks that played it, but I'd like it to have a little more potential to see play. {U}/{3} can't be splashed easily, but I think that it readily allows for other colours to be splashed in a primarily blue deck.

[Ephraim]

This card seems to have settled down again. I'm bumping it to the top, though. I still feel that there's contention over the casting cost of this card. I'm happy with it as is, and it seems that most people are, but the objector(s) are pretty vehement. Consider this a pre-24-hour-clock clock. I'll start it up again tonight, if there's no more discussion.

[rvs]

well, I've made my argument, and I think I succesfully countred your scepter-exists argument, if you can call it an argument, that is. However, it's your card, so it's up to you.

[Ephraim]

24 Hour Clock

[Matt]

Closed and added![/color]