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Author Topic: Spoils Dragon  (Read 2365 times)
BreathWeapon
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« on: March 27, 2004, 02:35:24 pm »

Spoils Dragon has been a labor of love for some time. I've been working on the deck for a few months now, and I would like to open up some discussion on the deck.

Spoils Dragon.dec

The Combo (5)
4xWorldgorger Dragon
1xAmbassador Laquatos

Burial Effects (8)
4xBuried Alive
4xBazaar of Baghdad

Animation Effects (8)
4xAnimate Dead
4xDance of the Dead

Tutor Effecs (7)
1xDemonic Tutor
1xVampiric Tutor
4xSpoils of the Vault
1xDemonic Consulation

Disruption (8)
4xUnmask
4xDuress

Manabase (24)
4xDark Ritual
4xElvish Spirit Guide
1xBlack Lotus
1xLotus Petal
1xMox Jet
4xPolluted Delta
4xBayou
5xSwamp

There is simply no other deck in Magic that can Gold Fish with the same consistancey of Spoils-Dragon, even Twister. Despite having a lower first turn percentage chance of going off, Dragon's second turn victory is even higher than Twister. The deck's key problems however are many.

The first concern for the deck is the disruption base. With the Animate effects all being in the 2cc range to increase gold fishing speed and the addition of Trinisphere to Workshop's arsenal, the lack of FoW is a telling disadvantage.

The second problem is the threat density. The deck depletes its hand soo quickly that it simply will not have any chance of victory past turn 3 vs a Control deck. More often than not, this problem can be alleviated by siding in Xantid Swarms from the SB ... but I wonder if they shouldn't be in the MD to begin with.

Hate is also always a problem, but the deck's speed can help dodge some of the hate density. Pernicious Deed, Withered Wretch and Cunning Wish are too slow to stop you from going off consistantly. The key problem is Tormod's Crypt, but I think this can be solved with the addition of Null Rod in the SB. Spoils Dragon doesn't rely on artifact acceleration for speed, so the Rod can be used to nullify Crypts and slow down the opponents acceleration. It also obviously doubles as a Bullet vs Slavery.

In short, i'm really running out of ideas for the deck. Null Rod has proven to be a saving grace vs Crypts and Xantid's are insane vs Tog, but i'm still having problems with Keeper, not a big deal, and Slaver. Any ideas?
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Lunk
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2004, 03:57:51 pm »

I see several (potential) problems with the deck:

First of all, you only have 1 win condition, and 5 effects that could accidently remove it from the game.  Has this not been a problem for you?  In my budget dragon deck, I play 2 win conditions (Laquatas + Shivan Hellkite) and still occasionally have problems with removing both.

Secondly, the lack of Necromancy.  This card is, quite simply, a necessity.  What do you do against a Chalice for 2?  It's far from inconceivable for Workshop decks to be able to drop it turn 2, or even turn 1, and with all of your game-winning animates at 2CC and no artifact removal, you fold to it.  Additionally, it can help to play around a lot of the hate.  For example, you Buried Alive and fetch out 2 gorgers and a Laquatas, and cast Dance of the Dead on one of the dragons.  Your opponent Swords' your dragon... but wait!  In response you cast an instant speed Necromancy on your second dragon and go off. (Note: Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm by no means an expert with rules, but wouldn't the end result be that you mill their entire library with Laquatas and then swords hits the first dragon and removes everything?  Or would the first dragon keep looping before the Swords ever resolved, thereby forcing a draw?  Regardless, at worst you just pulled a draw out of a game that probably just became unwinnable.)


Necromancy can also serve as a thorn in the side of control decks by making them scared to tap out EOT.  While it will actually noticably win you few games (i.e. they tap out eot while holding a Mana Drain to cast a Fact or Fiction and you respond with a Necromancy for the win), it will make them think twice before tapping out at any point, not just during their turn.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2004, 04:13:26 pm »

Ripping the win condition is not a problem, you just Animate the Dragon for the draw. The loss of Necromancey is unfortunate, but its necessary for Gold Fishing speed. Chalice for 2 is a big issue for the deck, but as long as your on the go you should be able to rip it from your opponents hand before they have a chance to play. Games 2 and 3 you have Deed and Oxidize to handle that problem.
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Lunk
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2004, 04:38:05 pm »

Unless this deck is intended purely for solo play, I fail to see why the ability to play around a very common hoser should be sacrificed for goldfishing speed.  And if you're so concerned about goldfishing speed, it seems to me that paying 2B (and 1 card) for your win condition is considerably faster than paying 2BBG (and 2 cards w/ Deed).  I also sincerely doubt that the 1 extra mana required for a Necromancy is going to cost you many games you'd otherwise be able to win.  If it does, there's plenty of acceleration along the lines of Mana Crypt and Mana Vault you could add.

Just my $.02.
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Xhad
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2004, 06:22:42 pm »

Quote from: Lunk
(Note: Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm by no means an expert with rules, but wouldn't the end result be that you mill their entire library with Laquatas and then swords hits the first dragon and removes everything?  Or would the first dragon keep looping before the Swords ever resolved, thereby forcing a draw?  Regardless, at worst you just pulled a draw out of a game that probably just became unwinnable.)


No, once you RFG dragon 1, the swords will never resolve (or more accurately, will be countered when it does resolve)...assuming the stack ever empties to that point.  If a permanent is RFG then comes back, it's not considered the same permanent anymore which means the Swords can't be targeting it.

The chain of events goes:

-You cast animate
-Dragon1 comes into play
-Dragon1 CIP trigger goes on the stack
-opponent casts STP in response to trigger
-you cast Necromancy in response to STP
-Dragon2 enters play
-CIP trigger resolves, all other permanents (including Dragon1) leave play
(at this point you have the opportunity to determine the order of the Necromancy, Animate Dead, and WGD triggers.  I don't believe it matters unless I'm missing something)
-Dragon1's leaves-play trigger goes on the stack and resolves, but since Dragon1 didn't remove anything nothing happens; Animate Dead's leaves-play trigger tries to put the nonexistent Dragon1 in the graveyard but also does nothing
-Dragon2 goes to graveyard due to Necromancy trigger
-Dragon2's leaves-play ability goes on the stack
-Animate Dead, Necromancy, Dragon1 (and I assume Bazaar) all come into play at the same time

(flag: FOO)

At this point you can choose what order to stack your triggers.

Animate effects, then Dragon1: This means Dragon1's CIP ability resolves, and the animate triggers don't do anything according to current errata because they're not in play anymore.  This means you have no permanents in play except a Worldgorger Dragon that won't create any loops, but if it leaves play for any reason and your opponent doesn't have Stifle, you can try the normal loop anyway when your animate enchantments come back into play.

AnimateCIP/Dragon1 CIP/Necromancy:

-Necromancy animates Dragon2
-Dragon2 removes all your other permanents...including Dragon1

Now you have ANOTHER opportunity to stack your triggers.   The stack already looks like:

opponent's STP/AnimateCIP/Dragon1CIP

And you have to add the Dragon1LP and the Necromancy LP.  The Dragon1LP doesn't do anything at all, so this time it doesn't matter.  So I'll assume you let that one resolve first so I don't have to acknowledge it anymore.  At this point:

-Necromancy LP resolves, Dragon2 goes to the graveyard
-Dragon2LP goes on stack and resolves, your perms come back into play again.  Go back to FLAG: FOO and this is your loop.  You can now go off at instant speed, or draw the game.

Dragon1, then animate effects: This is essentially the same as Animate/Dragon1/Necromancy, since you can still go into the loop and draw/win without the first two triggers ever resolving.

Wow, I never had a problem with Dragon.dec until I typed that post.

EDIT: I never did mention how to finish the loop.  Basically, after you've generated infinite mana, deck them with laquatus.  Then you can manipulate the stack to get to the point mentioned above where you have just a gorger in play (once you RFG all the animate enchantments, their CIP triggers stop mattering).  After all your triggers resolve, the STP fizzles.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2004, 07:11:25 pm »

This deck does not have the gas to play Necromancey. It does not fit into the mana curve and completely destroys the speed and consistancey this deck has to offer vs the field. I've gold fished well over 500 games with the deck, and having a Necromancey in the place of an Animate will automaticaly put you on a turn 3 clock, making the deck pointless. If anything, I would look to side Necromancey into the deck in addition to the current set of 8 Animates to alleviate the problem if it was that serious.
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SpencerForHire
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2004, 08:19:24 pm »

I'm curious where the Entomb is, It allows for first turn combo at times.
Me thinks:
-1 Buried Alive
+1 [card]Entomb[/card]
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2004, 09:17:42 pm »

Entomb is crap, and reducing any of the key combo components to less than 3 is suicide via Spoils.
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wicked chicken
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2004, 12:29:08 am »

I gotta tell you that this is one of my favorite decks to play but it really just scoops to chalice let me share my deck with you and i'll discuss anything that seems out of place.

critters

4 worldgorger dragon

1 ambassador

1 sliver queen

1 caller of the claw

1 verdent force

3 xantid swarm

animate the dragon!

4 animate dead

4 dance of the dead

2 necromancy

other goodness

4 spoils of the vault

1 entomb

1 vampiric tutor

speedy stuff

4 dark ritual

4 elvish spirit guide

lands

4 bazaar of baghdad

4 bayou

4 polluted delta

8 swamp

alright your saying what the fuck?

sliver queen,caller of the claw,verdent force.
With the spoils i couldn't tell you how many times I removed my win conditions from the game.I found it nessecary to have many choices seeing how many of your wins will be off a first turn rit-buried alive.

too many animates?

Being mono-black to fight through the the counters all else fails just keep trying to animate the dragon if you meet an early stifle or plow who cares your only out two lands and try it again.

maindeck xantids?

do you live in new england?

entomb?

nothig wrong with first turn rit-entomb-animate,first turn verdent/sliver queen deosn't suck.

vamiric tutor

Do i have to discuss topdeck tutors and bazaar?

Why no mox/lotus/sol/crypt?

I was actually on a budget trip(thought i was gonna change budget decks forever) when i made this i'm sure power could be added easily

Anyway it's almost impossible to go off turn one but it is really consistant on turn two and once you accept that you'll realize that it's a really good deck as long as there's not alot of control in your meta.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2004, 01:40:30 pm »

Actually, dropping Unmask for Necromancey to avoid Chalice is a cool idea, but Chalice for 1 is often just as debilitating as it is for 2. Don't you think your running too many swamps?
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