u/r stacker variant (and notes from the dual lotus in ct)

[Zw4liki]

I made this deck at about 1am the morning of the dual lotus because I had been watching sanchez and spike playtest for the past 2 hours or so while doing bitchwork to finish paying for the ruby, and given that the deck was essentially aggro, I was impressed to see it go about 50/50. After putting the deck together, I decided to playtest against tog, feeling I had seen enough of that 7/7 flying whore. After wrecking both hulkish decks and groatog, I decided to play the following deck:

stakker?.dec

Beats
4 x Juggz
4 x Su-Chi
2 x Triskelion
2 x Karn, Silver Golem

Stuff
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Trinisphere

More Stuff
4 x Goblin Welder
4 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Tinker
1 x Timetwister
1 x Wheel of Fortune
1 x Memory Jar

Mana Stuff
7 SoloMoxen
1 x Mana Vault
1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Tolarian Academy
4 x Mishras Workshop
4 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine
3 x Wooded Foothills
1 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Volcanic Island

SB:
3 x Stifle
4 x Rack and Ruin
4 x ReB
4 x Lightning Bolt
  (sb needs work, obviously)

Explanations:

        First off, just to clarify, I did indeed run 3 foothills and 1 mire. For one, they can trick the opponent into thinking your playing madness. Also, I'm poor and didnt feel like springing for a set of deltas... I'm pretty sure thats all the explaining I have to do. The chalices and trinispheres are self-explanatory, although I have noticed some people wavering from playsets of both. I can maybe see running only 3 chalice, but less than 4 trinisphere? Trinisphere is absolutely necessary early, and I have won so many games on the back of a turn-1 trinisphere that I would not have otherwise won. Madness and big-o like explosive openings? Groatog likes to cast dryad and multiple 1-cc spells? Trinisphere prevents this. The other thing that might be questionable about this deck is 2 x Karn. I know I originally didn't like this, and I tried such jank as platinum angel and even sword of fire and ice (don't flame, I had a foil one). The truth is, although the only beater is trinisphere, karn's role as an overcosted gorilla shaman is surprisingly good (especially when combined with other mana denial and trinispheres). Also, a number of times I've needed to destroy my own chalice.

4-1-2 is the suck...
       
Round 1, Groatog
  Game 1: He draws 4 mana drains and 3 FoWs. I shit myself.
  Game 2: Juggs and friends beat.
  Game 3: Turn 1 Trinisphere followed by beats

Round 2, smemmen and his slavery.dec
  Game 1: He plays poorly and my beats beat.
  Game 2: I didn't know how to board, he played smarter, I lost.
  Game 3: He gets double welder, its all I can do to draw.
     Heres what he said:
     

 

Real Round Two:
I play against a kid with a deck that scares the bejeezus out of me for some reason: Stacker/ Tubbies with Thirsts. I play extremely conservatively and lose a game that I should have won. I didn't Jar or Wheel on the appropriate turns and made huge play errors that cost me the game.

Game one was basically: Turn one large d00d: FoW. Turn Two Welder Large D00d. I could havce Thirsted and then welded in discarded Duplicant to slow down the damage but becuase I'm a moron I didn't. I took too much damage before I began to control the game and he had Trike in his yard and Welders to keep brining it back.

Game Two: I play more intelligently and seal the deal quickly.

Game Three was very interesting. I kept a very slow hand with Double Welder which plays out in the strangest way.

Round Three, slaver.dec
  Game One: I get lucky and one wasteland ends it.
  Game Two: Todays my lucky day. He goes turn 1 slaver, I counter with rack and ruin. He goes triskelion welder, I go rack and ruin and stifle his welded in slaver. GG.

Round Four, Madness
  Game One: Quadruple Welder and the beats do him in.
  Game Two: I play poorly.
  Game Three: Null Rod owns me.

Round Five, Madness
  Game One: chalice on 2, gg
  Game Two: Null Rod owns me.
  Game Three: Its late, I make playmistakes, oh well.


Conclusions:
     v.s. madness
          In my opinion, this matchup is about fairly even. Arrogant wurm and squee and null rod are bitches, but trinisphere and chalice own them. Also, recurring threats is good? With correct playtesting and few playmistakes, this matchup should be able to go in your favor. Does anyone have any suggestions for sb tech here?
    v.s. slavery
          Its hard to come to any conclusions here because the two matchups were so drastically different, but they key is obviously knowing welder tricks and getting an aggressive start. Trinisphere and chalice don't help much here, so mulliganing into hands with either draw-7s or sufficient beats. Given the threat density, this shouldn't be hard. Since I've started testing the matchup, its about even, with slavery having the upper hand. Pentavus owns this deck. My current board plan is -4 trinisphere -3 Chalice +3 Stifle +4 Rack and Ruin, and this has been working wonderfully, although I'm still not sure how to combat pentavus further.
    v.s. keeper, tog, control-decks
          I'm lumping these together because, granted it sounds ridiculous, this deck owns them. Chalice and trinisphere coupled with fast threats and recursion... I can't describe it. Go out and playtest these matchups yourself, its great.

  These are the only matchups I've tested, and I haven't exactly tested thoroughly. The deck is in its early stages, but so far it is looking promising. Please comment and playtest this, especially against the decks I did not (big-o, fish, landstill, tnt, etc) and let me know how it goes.

[Smash]

I wouldn't post win %'s, it makes flame wars. Try to just say if a matchup is good/easy/hard/impossible/auto-win etc.

I would question some of your results. You don't have as much long game as tnt (no survival, thirsts instead), and your beating power is roughly the same.

[Vegeta2711]

Running only 4 COTV and Trini as disruption in Stacker sort of defeats the purpose of playing Stacker over TnT, methinks. You either want to be packing some heavy disruption like Pillar and Blood Moon or counters like JP's build.

[BreathWeapon]

I've had a lot of success with Trinisphere/Chalice/Thirst/Tubbies, so I wouldn't be soo quick to judge. Blood Moon and Pillar have increasingly become less viable against the field, I've straight up cut Blood Moon because everybody using a control deck is prepared for it. Pillar has always been questionable, IMO, because it doesn't directly prevent the opponent from developing his game. You never know if the Pillar is going to Life Prison your opponent, or if its going to do absolutely nothing.

Some suggestions,

Any deck using Thirsts/Welder/Tinker should be packing atleast 1 Mindslaver. Vs Tog, you'll pull games out of your arse with 1 MD. Another solid choice is Platinum Angel to Welder in against Dragon.

Where is the Time Walk?

[Zw4liki]

Timewalk is not included because... ok, I don't know why. What would you cut to put it in? Also I'm thinking of dropping the second Karn for a Mindslaver... Or should I cut something else? In playtesting the platinum angel against dragon was not exactly the tech I was hoping it to be, as skilled players can do a number of things to get around it (stifling the welder activation, animating your platinum angel themselves, stealing one of your welders and welding it out, etc).

[Vegeta2711]

I more meant in addition too, but anyways. If your only running 8 disruption cards then you may as well play TnT for the superior engine.

[Zw4liki]

uhm I'm not sure TnT has a "superior" engine... Although you didn't elaborate, I'm guessing your referring to survival. If you are, I don't believe that engine is superior, but rather different (read: worse?). Its green mana intensive, and makes the deck more susceptible to the graveyard hate already boarded in against welder/workshop decks. Thirst for Knowledge, while it is slow and doesn't necessarily draw you the threats you need, is still at the very least an exceptible draw spell. Also, with Root Maze around, Survival of the Fittest is even worse; and, given the presence of big-o, madness, and other green decks running root maze, perhaps thirst is better than the survival engine. Also, I believe Chalice and Trinisphere are much better disruption cards than Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillar (I'm not up-to-date with TnT, but I'm pretty sure this and trinisphere make up its "disruption"), as Blood Moon messes with your own Workshops and Pyrostatic Pillar isn't... well, that good. All in all, I guess it would help if you could elaborate on how TnT has a superior engine?

[Vegeta2711]

Also, I believe Chalice and Trinisphere are much better disruption cards than Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillar

Did you miss the part where I said, in addition too? Here's the thing, Stacker's entire gameplan is based on mass disruption of the opponent followed up with a few large threats. By only running 8 disruption cards, you basically defeat the idea of the deck.

Also, with Root Maze around, Survival of the Fittest is even worse

Um... how? If they laid it first turn your mana and creatures are coming into play tapped anyways, regardless of whichever thing you use.

SOTF will always fetch you either a threat or an anwser to a problem from your toolbox. Thirst will draw you 3 cards at random and dump one of those in the grave. SOTF is a continual effect you can use multiple times where Thirst can only be used once. You getting the idea here yet?

BTW, I have yet to see people SB in grave hate against Stacker or TnT.  

[Zw4liki]

As to the first part, sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant by "I mean more in addition too." As far as how Survival of the Fittest is worse with root maze... The idea between Survival of the Fittest is to lay it fairly early and use it to search out the correct threat to play. This means that you need to spend green mana to find the creature, and then mana to play it, early on. Root Maze stunts early development, thus making this difficult. Thirst, on the other hand, is more of a mid-to-late-game spell to refill your hand and keep your welder going. It is in no way meant to search out threats to lay, as playing 12 fatties should be plenty. This is pretty obvious, as hitting 3 non-workshop mana and 4 artifact mana (to thirst and lay a threat) is impossible early game. To sum it up, survival is worse under root maze because you need to activate and lay your threats early on, whereas thirst isn't used until after the threat is on the board.

BTW, I have no idea where you're playing, but all-to-frequently I have seen Ground Seal boarded in to prevent welder from making the removal that is also boarded in useless. Granted Ground Seal doesn't stop squee, I'm just saying that other graveyard hate isn't out of the question...

[Vegeta2711]

To sum it up, survival is worse under root maze because you need to activate and lay your threats early on, whereas thirst isn't used until after the threat is on the board.

Couldn't you just lay the threat first and then play SOTF? It's the exact same thing as you describe doing with Thirst.

[Zw4liki]

because of the way the survival engine works, you play alot of situational/utility creatures. Therefore, you will usually need to survival to get the correct threat to lay (hence you need to play survival first). With 12 fatties, however, this deck will not need to thirst to find one. Yes/no?

[Vegeta2711]

No because TnT usually runs at least 8 straight up beaters anyways and then since you count Trike and Karn under there, it becomes 10 or so. Then add in the larger utility dudes (PA and such) and it becomes about 11-13 anyways. Even if you stop the fattie curve at 6 mana TnT still only packs 1 or 2 less actual large threats than you. And of course that doesn't count the fact that even utility dudes can go and beatdown.

[FireFall26]

I have found this deck to be a lot more consistant, thouge Ive changed it a litle.  I cut fetches for 4 shivan reefs, cut a karn for a mindslaver, and added timewalk putting me at 61 cards. Time walk is essential in the deck, adding extra beats.  I may cut the 2nd karn to go to 60 cards, its not too useful in the deck, just an expensive mox monkey, and chump blocker.  I like this much better than tnt because it doesn't need all the cards like survival, and can consitant drop early fatties, draw card, to get more fatties.  The slaver is awesome, it is another tinker target.  Currently my sb looks like 4 reb 3 R ack and ruin 3 blood moon 2 fire ice 3 tormod's crypt.  About karn, I have never needed to kill my own chalices.  I generall set it for 2, or 3.  Setting it for 1 is alright, but I may keep the 61st card of Karn, depends what I see in testing. I know 61 cards are bad, but time walk is a must have in the deck, and every other card is good.  I will probably cut the second karn to go to 60.

[Zw4liki]

Finally, some input from someone who has tested it. I also cut the 2nd karn for a mindslaver as soon as it was suggested, and so far it has been mediocre... but only because having the 4 nonworkshop mana was difficult. Replacing the fetches with Shivan Reef would definitely help solve this problem, but doesn't that lead to mana flood? I have been toying with Ancient Tomb (after seeing it in Slavery) but I'm guessing that with the addition of 4 x shivan reef it is unnecessary. As far as going up to 61 cards for timewalk... I'm not sure about that. It will obviously need testing, but I can see why its worth the extra slot (even though, as someone else put it, cutting Time Walk is the vogue thing to do... or something like that). Although, what about replacing the fetches with 3 x Shivan Reef 1 x Ancient Tomb or some other combination? Or is ancient tomb entirely unnecessary with shivan reefs and only 1 slaver? I don't want to end up turning this into slavery...

[FireFall26]

Finally, some input from someone who has tested it. I also cut the 2nd karn for a mindslaver as soon as it was suggested, and so far it has been mediocre... but only because having the 4 nonworkshop mana was difficult. Replacing the fetches with Shivan Reef would definitely help solve this problem, but doesn't that lead to mana flood? I have been toying with Ancient Tomb (after seeing it in Slavery) but I'm guessing that with the addition of 4 x shivan reef it is unnecessary. As far as going up to 61 cards for timewalk... I'm not sure about that. It will obviously need testing, but I can see why its worth the extra slot (even though, as someone else put it, cutting Time Walk is the vogue thing to do... or something like that). Although, what about replacing the fetches with 3 x Shivan Reef 1 x Ancient Tomb or some other combination? Or is ancient tomb entirely unnecessary with shivan reefs and only 1 slaver? I don't want to end up turning this into slavery...

I haven't found 4 shivan reef as mana flood.  Even though shops are wasteland targets, if they take out your early volcs, these replace them.  The non shop mana is good for the thirsts, and activating slaver.  I would like to get the deck back to 60 cards, but time walk I think is huge in the deck.  Swing for 5, or 4, or more. Then walking into another turn is very good.  I dont think Ancient tomb is necessary, 4 reefs have been good to me.  Ive randomly like the Karn too. It ate chalice for 4's set vs me (as ridiculius as it sounds, it can be annoying).  It is far from turning into slavery, running 1 slaver.  Every time I have used slaver nothing bad has come out of it.  I like it for another good tinker target also if jar is gone.

[Zw4liki]

Then I guess I'll try it with just reefs then. Although without fetches, aren't the thirsts a bit worse? Idk, but I really can't see what to cut for the Timewalk. Maybe it is better left out? Is there any reason to sb it? For reference, this is the list I ran at cape cod (from RoadTrippin's 5th place report)

Dom Minicucci w/ WorseThanTNT.dec
4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
4 Su Chi
2 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mindslaver
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Grim Monolith
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Mana Crypt
1 Darksteel Citadel
SB:
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Stifle
3 Shattering Pulse
3 Scrabbling Claws
4 Lightning Bolt

   The big problem here was that it was 5 proxy, and I don't own workshops, only the emerald, ruby, and twister. I opted for speed, running the lotus as my 5th proxy, so I had to substitute. Darksteel Citadel = weak subsititute for mox. I even had to borrow my mana crypt from someone (thnks btw)... For these reasons, I didn't really get to test Mindslaver all that well, but I'll try some combination of shivan reefs and ancient tombs (maybe 4 and 0?) in place of the fetches if I make it to maine, plus I'll be able to proxy more power.  Also, I ran scrabbling claws because I couldn't dig up my crypts, but I began thinking they were obviously slightly worse in the dragon matchup, but perhaps better in others? For example, against opposing welder decks? Maybe I'm crazy, but wouldn't it be plausible to keep a graveyard empty if it isn't being fueled by bazaar? I think I may end up testing them, as I can't find any other posts here about scrabbling claws... My guess is that they are bad because of null rod, but the decks that you would board them in against would not have null rod. However once I figure out a sb they will probaby end up going due to space constraints. Any thoughts?

 Oh yeah, and I did get pwned by his mono-black dragon. Didn't see trinisphere or chalice, just juggz. And stifle doesn't do much against hardcast dragon.

Round 2: Dom w/ his Artifact Tubbies deck
Game 1 I go off pretty quickly.
Game 2 I have a turn 2 kill hand, but he boarded in 3 cards and I'm fearing crypts. My hand is Lotus, Swamp, Ritual, Dragon, 3 other cards. I go for the hardcast dragon, and his Juggs have to attack into it. 3 turns later he's been killed by a hardcasted Dragon.

[FireFall26]

I am the guy that loaned you the mana crypt   .  Yea scrabbling claws is ass, cyrpt is much better, and even phyrexian furnace is better.  Yea 5 mox are key in the dec because it needs early accelletration.  A common 1st turn is shop mox jugg or su chi.  Well test out the shivans and tell me what you think.  I don't think that ancient tomb is necesarry, but you can give it a try.  Yea as for the dragon matchup, I have crpyts on my sb, and I may try BEB, fot things like what happened with John.

[Flurp™]

Have you thought about arcbound ravengers in this deck?  I have been playing a similar unpowered deck and they have been great, ravenagers dont speed up the kill very much but they make it harder to disrupt.

[Zw4liki]

uhh no thanks on the ravager idea... a 1/1 that I would have to sacrifice 4+ power creatures to in order for it to be at least a 2/2 sounds... uhm...

I think you are mistaking the list I ran at cape cod for the optimal list. Ideally, the deck is not unpowered. Surprise surprise, moxen are good for first turn threats and then welding out when the threats get removed.

But anyways, any thoughts on cutting the second karn for another slaver/trike/tubby ? I've recently been having problems with Karn in testing because of the increase in mox monkeys, which make great karn blockers. I'm just not sure he's worth the 5 mana in this deck...

[BreathWeapon]

I've had a lot of fun with this deck for the past few days or so. As far as the SOTF>Thirst argument, there is no equal grounds for comparison between the two cards. TFK DRAWS Cards, thus it accelerates into additional lock components, Mana and Mana Denial. Thirst is also 3cc, which makes CotV much more effective in this deck because Chalice for 2 does not interfere with playing a Survival. U/r Stacker is a much more aggressively oriented deck aimed at utilizing better disruption cards at the cost of the "Superior Engine." So, there is logic behind the decision to use Thrist instead of Survival.

By the way, i'm playing the list posted without the Draw 7's and Shivan Reefs>Fetch Lands, Time Walk is da broken and I like my Mindslaver.

[Zw4liki]

By the way, i'm playing the list posted without the Draw 7's and Shivan Reefs>Fetch Lands, Time Walk is da broken and I like my Mindslaver.

   Umm, you are playing no draw-7s because...? I have found 1 mindslaver nearly sufficient, and am currently testing 2, but I really don't think the number should be any higher. I can't really see dropping a draw-7 for a Time Walk, as Time Walk is more of a win-more card in this deck, whereas the draw-7s function as come-from-behind, recovery cards after having your threats and welders dealt with (countered, removed, etc.) Also, recurring Memory Jar is insane, and I'm hoping when you say that you play it without the draw sevens, you don't mean you cut the Memory Jar. Exactly what did you take out for what? So far, the consensus seems to be Shivan Reef > Fetch land, but has anyone tried ancient tomb? I'll get around to it...

[BreathWeapon]

I never felt as tho' I needed the Draw 7's for anything. I didn't want to feed other decks that could better utilize the card advantage. Yes, I did keep Jar, its not a Draw 7 in the traditional sense and its hella broken. I dropped the 2 Draw 7's for the Walk and Slaver.

[Zw4liki]

Why not cut the second Karn for the Slaver and the Wheel for the Walk... I can't see the logic in cutting Timetwister. It messes with Squees, other welders, and gives you a chance to go crazy laying workshops and moxes etc etc.  Also, if you're worried about combo or control using the cards better, drawing a lock component of the twister sort of negates that, barring they draw a FoW.

[FireFall26]

Why not cut the second Karn for the Slaver and the Wheel for the Walk... I can't see the logic in cutting Timetwister. It messes with Squees, other welders, and gives you a chance to go crazy laying workshops and moxes etc etc.  Also, if you're worried about combo or control using the cards better, drawing a lock component of the twister sort of negates that, barring they draw a FoW.

I am pretty suprised you haven't seem a big point yet, TIME WALK IS GOOD IN THE DECK!  Like swinging for lethal damage, then walking is very good.  It cycles early as well, gets extra land drops.  In testing the deck, I have never drawn time walk and not liked to see it.  What is your justification for it not being a good card?

[Zw4liki]

In the quote you put I am advocating putting Time Walk in the deck... I don't have anything directly against Time Walk. I can see why it would be good. My argument there was just to cut something else... I fully recognize that Time Walk is good in the deck, I just haven't found the correct card to cut for it as of yet...