Type 1.4 Deck Construction

[M]

Why shouldn't there be a 'budget' vintage format with a banned list designed to make the format accessible to as many as possible but otherwise without any bannings or restrictions? In other words, a totally open (broken?) vintage format where cards get banned only for being too expensive (on the secondary market) and not for any other reason.

Type 1.4 Deck Construction

Permitted Sets

All basic sets
All extensions of the basic set
All promotional cards released by Wizards of the Coast
All limited-edition or large expansion sets

Banned Cards

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Bronze Tablet
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Falling Star
Illusionary Mask
Jeweled Bird
Juzam Djinn
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Rebirth
Tempest Efreet
The Abyss
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends

The 'banning threshold' is of course arbitrary; I used $60 in the above list.
Notice that the following cards would then be unrestricted:

Balance, Black Vise, Braingeyser, Burning Wish, Channel, Chrome Mox, Crop Rotation, Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, Doomsday, Dream Halls, Earthcraft, Enlightened Tutor, Entomb, Fact or Fiction, Fastbond, Fork, Frantic Search, Grim Monolith, Gush, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Memory Jar, Mind Over Matter, Mind Twist, Mind's Desire, Mox Diamond, Mystical Tutor, Necropotence, Regrowth, Sol Ring, Strip Mine, Stroke of Genius, Time Spiral, Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Vampiric Tutor, Voltaic Key, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Yawgmoth's Will.

Please don't get all worked up over how broken this would be.
No one really knows what the metagame would be like.

Besides that and the obvious objection that this format wouldn't be 'fair' to collectors who invested a lot of money in expensive T1 stables, can you think of any reason why this 'broken budget' format shouldn't make an interesting tournament format with the potential to attract many players from the current vintage environments, and players from outside vintage?

[Lockdown]

Notice that the following cards would then be unrestricted:

Balance, Black Vise, Braingeyser, Burning Wish, Channel, Chrome Mox, Crop Rotation, Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, Doomsday, Dream Halls, Earthcraft, Enlightened Tutor, Entomb, Fact or Fiction, Fastbond, Fork, Frantic Search, Grim Monolith, Gush, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Memory Jar, Mind Over Matter, Mind Twist, Mind's Desire, Mox Diamond, Mystical Tutor, Necropotence, Regrowth, Sol Ring, Strip Mine, Stroke of Genius, Time Spiral, Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Vampiric Tutor, Voltaic Key, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Yawgmoth's Will.

Please don't get all worked up over how broken this would be.
No one really knows what the metagame would be like.

Besides that and the obvious objection that this format wouldn't be 'fair' to collectors who invested a lot of money in expensive T1 stables, can you think of any reason why this 'broken budget' format shouldn't make an interesting tournament format with the potential to attract many players from the current vintage environments, and players from outside vintage?

I'm sorry, I'm still going to have to say that this is a broken format.  Agreed, nobody knows the potential metagame, but the fact remains, there are a lot of unrestricted cards in this format that help out combo.  Basically, the only viable decks in this format would be combo, because (a) nothing else is as fast and (b) nothing can stop it (too many must counters).  Besides the loss of power, you've just allowed the comeback of Long, Academy, and all the broken decks of the past that were nerfed.  In fact, decks in this format may even be better than decks in Type 1 because the loss of power is compensated by the unrestriction of good, slightly weaker, formerly restricted cards.

[Rancor1]

how bout taking the current t1 format and banning all cards over $50, but leaving the rest of the restricted list intact?

add nether void to the banned list.

[jpmeyer]

GAT is the best deck in this format, simply because it can beat Jar, Academy, Trix, High Tide, and Twiddle Desire

[Fëanor]

If this format existed...I'm making SqwerelCraft!!!!! wooo!!!!!

The idea is cool, but think, Mana Denial now has 8 free Strip(!?)
Tinkering for a slaver...twice?
Madness would have how many LEDs?
Dragon can still function with entomb if people dont have bazzar...
Elfball would kick!!! four channel wooyeah!
Remember how powerful Necro was back in the day? They didn't use power, they used 4 Necro. This format would be dominated by necro for a time.
Stasis would have gush back...that makes me shudder...

Just because the power is gone doesn't mean the once restricted cards are useless or even less powerful. The format would still be undoubtedly broken.

Nevertheless, I would support the format if it ever became popular

Peace

[jpmeyer]

Just look at it like this: every deck that was banned for being too powerful in Extended (a format with a historically higher power level than Type 1) is now legal again.

[xrizzo]

All I can think of is:

4x Black Vise
4x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland

There would be some awesome decks - but this type of format is really just called casual.  Make your house rules abide by these restrictions - and at least you wont have people net decking from the current scene.

[Jacob Orlove]

GAT is the best deck in this format, simply because it can beat Jar, Academy, Trix, High Tide, and Twiddle Desire :wink:

But can it beat this?

4 Burning Wish
4 Chrome Mox
4 Demonic Consultation
4 Demonic Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Crypt
2 Memory Jar
3 Mind's Desire
4 Mana Vault
4 Tinker
4 Tolarian Academy
2 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gemstone Mine
2 open slot (I'd need to actually test it to see just what)

SB:
1 Desire
1 Tendrils
1 Yawgmoth's Will
12 irrelevant cards (probably stuff like hull breach or meltdown)

[jpmeyer]

Probably.  GAT gives you a deck that lets you run like 16 counters while still letting you kill like turn 3 (goooooo Wills and Fastbonds!)

[gzeiger]

4 Entomb
4 Demonic Tutor
4 Vampiric Tutor
4 Necropotence

2 Worldgorger Dragon
2 Shivan Hellkite

4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
1 Necromancy

4 Duress
4 Unmask

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Polluted Delta

That is all I have to say.

[M]

Bah, I posted in 'budget' but got moved to the casual forum.
So much for innovative thought. Discussing proxies is fine, but new formats without proxies isn't!

how bout taking the current t1 format and banning all cards over $50, but leaving the rest of the restricted list intact?

I thought about that too. It might be the better option, especially since the transition from Type 1 would be smoother. I thought I'd give the 'broken' format a chance first, since many of the restricted combo elements are restricted because of 5xmox plus lotus. The format is obviously insane, but that is not the same as one deck is obviously the best.

But hey Rancor1, I think you have it right.

[Zherbus]

Bah, I posted in 'budget' but got moved to the casual forum.
So much for innovative thought. Discussing proxies is fine, but new formats without proxies isn't!

It's not rocket science - it isn't really type 1, therefore it doesn't belong in any of the 5 type 1 specific forums. The only place for alternative formats is casual. It's the same reason 5-color and T1.5 do not belong in those forums.

[M]

One could argue that magic with proxies is not T1 either, and all discussions about that should be moved to the casual forum.
Proxies is, after all, non standard rules.
This is basically just a suggestion to ban those cards that most people would be proxying up to play T1 anyway.
The goal is the same: To open up the game for more players.

And it doesn't make a lot of sense to place format discussions in the casual magic forum because casual is, almost per definition, not about formats.

But, whatever. Maybe this isn't the time or the place.

[Zherbus]

One could argue but it wouldn't matter.

"Type 1.4"

Those are not type 1 deck construction rules. What you have presented is a new format, hence non-type 1. Non-type1 is a few catagories: Other DCI supported formats (which is clearly stated in the rules that we do not support here) and niche formats like 5-color, Type 4, and Highlander which it belongs here (casual).

While proxying is not a DCI endorsed rule, it has no effect on what is or isn't illegal during deck construction. Therefore, someone who plays with proxies will be able to talk about the same deck building guidelines as someone with full power.

Innovating new formats and format changes is fine. If you are proposing to change type 1 from it's current state to your format, thats a whole other Pandora's Box you're opening. If you are presenting a new format, whether or not it is basically a 'fixed' type 1.5 or a wacky off-the-wall format, it belongs here.

[st00mie]

This has to be the dumbest thread I have ever seen.

First of all, what pricing standard would you conceivably use?  It's impossible to arbitrarily ban cards by price because there is just no reliable or consistent standard to base anything on!  Every known price guide fluctuates so much, a card could be legal one day, and banned the next!  On top of that, when you start letting the secondary market value of cards influence the actual meta, people will start manipulating the market and in turn manipulating the banned list.

Of course this is moved to the casual forum.  What you are proposing is a completely new (albeit retarded) format.  The idea behind allowing proxies is to remove the influence the secondary market (aka inaccessability of certain cards) from our format.  What you are suggesting is a move in the complete opposite direction.

[kirdape3]

JP wanted to play Trix for about three seconds until we realized that GAT is just better.  You kill insanely fast, you have infinite counterspells and can stop just about anything you care to.  The only problem would honestly be Desire, since at present there are no Stifles in the list.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Unrestrict Dream Halls what?

[Alfred]

Okay, this format would be retardedly broken. Twiddle desire anyone? That deck was fucking broken in 1.x, now add stuff like 4x memory jar, 4x demonic tutor, 4x windfall, 4x Grim monolith, academy, WILL etc. etc. This will crank out turn one wins even more consistantly than long. Seriously, GAT will have to mulligan into a FoW hand every first turn, and that might not even work. Desire would be a bundle of brokenness. "Who has the turn one kill?" will often be the question to ask when playing against a deck in this format. Someone get some goldfish stats in here please.

[Jacob Orlove]

I tested out the deck I posted earlier, and it's just to vulnerable. I don't really like playing creatures in this format, though, so here's my next attempt to break everything:

4 Gush
4 Dark Ritual
4 Fastbond
4 Demonic Consultation
4 Demonic Tutor
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mind's Desire
3 Burning Wish
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Windfall
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Will
1 Tendrils
1 Windfall
1 Living Wish
1 Dryad
1 Tog
1 Xantid Swarm
(8 irrelevant)

This is doing a lot better in goldfishing, and it's obviously more resilient. I'd like to find room for a 4th Foil, though.

[Alfred]

Perhaps fish would be good in this format, due to all the tendrils combo. Null rod, stifle, FOW and other goodies could really do well in such a broken meta.

[Lashkar]

Mmm, first thing I thought was "Time to do extended tinker stax with 4 sol rings and 4 mana crypts, br0ken!"...uhh, and we get all these neat darksteel artifacts too...well, darksteel collosus anyway..

[hispls]

I'd come to any tourney in this kind of format anywhere in new england.  You all say how out of hand some decks are but no one can agree on which would always win.  So far everyone is already trying to duplicate a deck that someone else already made.  If this format came out I'd be willing to bet that the top 8 would be at least half made up of people who actually used their brains in creating something new rather than copying everyone elses stuff.  I bet if people really did some thinking there would be some decks emerging that no one ever thought of before.  As far as the price cut off, this format would never be big enough to affect the world market for cards and the prices could be defined as the december scrye median prices.  Updated every year in december.  Currently no one knows what would do what, because there is no real metagame for this on a large scale.  The metagame would emerge over time.  I think playing with even 10$ as a cut off would be fun or even 5.  Personally I'm sick of type 1 and 2.  I show up at a tournament and between 50 people there is only like 4 different decks that everyone coppied of the net, and are all proxies.  Anyway, not to get carried away, but I'm itching for a change of pace from everything that's happening in the field now.

[Fistandantilus]

I totally agree with the above post, and I think that the idea of a $5 limit per card is a great one.  I'd like to see some decks without the T1 restrictions, but with the $5/card price cap.  It could even be APPROXIMATE price, so that as long as there was one credible source that indicated that cards could be purchased for $5 or less, the card would be legal.

I think that the above poster is right; I think that many people would use the same decks, and would get creamed by those who thought of innovative ways to beat those decks.  I think that the above poster is right that we would see some new and interesting decks.  Many decks now use tendrils for the kill.  But if you can't be targeted, ala True Believer, tendrils is hosed.

Peasant Magic is a format where you generally get cheap decks, but I'd like to see some cheap decks that have rares and more than five uncommons.

[OPColby]

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Island

4 Mind over Matter

4 Windfall
4 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral

4 Mind over Matter

4 Windfall
4 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral
4 Frantic Search

4 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Vault
4 Sol Ring
4 Voltaic Key

First turn win, easy.

1:  Tolarian Academy
2:  Mana Crypt, tap.  2 floating.
3:  Sol Ring, tap.  1, then 3 floating.
4:  Mana Vault, tap.  2, then 5 floating.
5:  Voltaic Key, tap to untap Mana Vault.  3 floating.
6:  Tap Mana Vault again.  6 floating.
7:  Put down any other artifact, I.E., Sol Ring.   7 Floating.
8:  Tap Tolarian Academy.  5 Blue, 7 Colorless floating.
9:  Windfall.  4 Blue, 5 Colorless Floating.

Seven new cards.

10:  Cast MOM.  3 colorless floating.
11:  Put down another artifact, discard four cards to get around 25 mana, and SOG yourself for 20 cards.

That's using all different cards.  It's not improbable.  I didn't even use time spiral.

Now, let's try it with Time Spiral:  (Which makes it much easier.)

First turn win:

1:  Tolarian Academy.
2:  Mana Crypt, tap.  2 colorless floating.
3:  Sol Ring, Mana Vault, tap-tap.  5 colorless floating.
4:  Voltaic Key, tap, untap mana Vault, 6 colorless floating.
5:  Any other artifact.  7-8 colorless floating.
6:  Tap Tolarian Academy.  5 Blue, 7 colorless floating.
7:  Time Spiral.  3 blue, 3 colorless floating.
8:  Untap Academy, tap acaedmy.  7 blue, 3 colorless floating.

Seven new cards.

Mind over matter, stroke yourself for 3, or even WINDFALL.

You win.

I didn't even use Frantic Search.  Yeah, that's right.  This is insane.

4 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Vault
4 Sol Ring
4 Voltaic Key

First turn win, easy.

1:  Tolarian Academy
2:  Mana Crypt, tap.  2 floating.
3:  Sol Ring, tap.  1, then 3 floating.
4:  Mana Vault, tap.  2, then 5 floating.
5:  Voltaic Key, tap to untap Mana Vault.  3 floating.
6:  Tap Mana Vault again.  6 floating.
7:  Put down any other artifact, I.E., Sol Ring.   7 Floating.
8:  Tap Tolarian Academy.  5 Blue, 7 Colorless floating.
9:  Windfall.  4 Blue, 5 Colorless Floating.

Seven new cards.

10:  Cast MOM.  3 colorless floating.
11:  Put down another artifact, discard four cards to get around 25 mana, and SOG yourself for 20 cards.

That's using all different cards.  It's not improbable.  I didn't even use time spiral.

Now, let's try it with Time Spiral:  (Which makes it much easier.)

First turn win:

1:  Tolarian Academy.
2:  Mana Crypt, tap.  2 colorless floating.
3:  Sol Ring, Mana Vault, tap-tap.  5 colorless floating.
4:  Voltaic Key, tap, untap mana Vault, 6 colorless floating.
5:  Any other artifact.  7-8 colorless floating.
6:  Tap Tolarian Academy.  5 Blue, 7 colorless floating.
7:  Time Spiral.  3 blue, 3 colorless floating.
8:  Untap Academy, tap acaedmy.  7 blue, 3 colorless floating.

Seven new cards.

Mind over matter, stroke yourself for 3, or even WINDFALL.

You win.

I didn't even use Frantic Search.  Yeah, that's right.  This is insane.