Utility Cards In Gay/r

[sparticus216]

In many builds, mine especialy I have little to no room for what I would deem optimal amount of utlity cards...
These are the basic utility cards i am running...(alot of Artifact/Slaver hate)

Fire/Ice: This is a card that i think there should be at least 3, it will never be a dead card, weather you need it for extra 2 points of burn, kill double welders, or just ice Fat.

Null Rod: As of now I am debating running 2 or 3. I think that because of the amount of decks that it hoses, kills moxes and what not.

Curiosity: I know most people think it should be Blastphamy to run less than 4, but right now i had to cut it to 3 and i think that It could work

Sigil of Sleep: This baby is my tech against the large amount of Tog' and Grow. once i have this on a pinger i keep dryads from geting big and scare them from ever pumping the Tog. Not to mention it will keep big Faties out of play

Stifle: what i belive to be next to Fire/Ice to be the most versitile card, Stifle I belive should run 2 MD. IT kills wastes, strips giving you a huge swing in open mana, also can stop so much more

Annul: Again this is most likly to fit a SB spot, but this card is extremly underused and I think should be taken into greater Consideration

Misdirection: I have seen decks ranging from 3 to 1 and think that it has alot of use and come on....who doesnt love to borrow someone elses ancesteral

StandStill: I have seen some polls going up about its effectiveness but i still think that it is a Deck Staple and should run 4

Daze: I dont realy know much about Daze, and havnt tested it alot....Hows it working out for most people?

Not Sure if i missed out on any important cards...I know it is very metagame dependant but I think it is worth disscusion

[rvs]

You're right on about Fire/Ice. With Welder being the best creature in T1, you surely must have ways to deal with him right then and there, and Fire/Ice is as good as it gets. Since Aggro and Aggro-control mirrors are your most difficult matchup, Fire/Ice makes a lot of sense.

Null Rod is an important part of the Fish Strategy. You really want to stun their development so you can gain enough tempo advantage to seal the victory with your tiny men. Even if you play Lotus and Mox, it's still very much worth it to run Rods.

Curiosity depends on your creature count. In the creature count thread, I've seen people who run >12 creatures, then I'd say 3 curiosity is enough. If you go <12, I think you should keep running 4.

Sigil of Sleep: i don't think this is that great. Bouncing a tog won't matter that much, since the Tog player will only drop the Tog when he's ready to win (or very close). I doubt it'll have a big impact on that matchup. In either way, it's a sideboard option I guess if your meta is GAT-infested.

Stifle is strong, yet random. I'm not sure it belongs, but if you can find the space, go for it.

Misdirection, Standstill and Daze. I think you need to make a pick about one or the other. Daze is also dependant on hatchling or no. (Personally I prefer hatchling). I just think MisD is really weak, but neccesary evil like Standstill is. It's simply your best option with the manlands and such.

I agree with you on Annul. It could be very good. However, if you run Null Rod, won't you be overdoing it just a little?

[DavidHernandez]

Sigil of Sleep: i don't think this is that great.

Yeah, I thought this too until Tony Soto (NoYuo) pointed out that Sigil really works best with Gilded Drake.  You get their critter and then bounce your Drake.

Dave

[yodoblec]

3 Null Rod is the perfect number. You need 3 to be able to draw one quicker to lay down against Slaver and the like. Some decks like to run artifacts while others run Null Rod.

[Raven Fire]

Daze is also dependant on hatchling or no. (Personally I prefer hatchling).

This seems to imply you should run one or the other.  IMHO, Daze works best with Hatchlings, not instead of them.  Having playtested with and against them, the potential combination is a total psychological nightmare for any Fish opponent.  I also think you should run at least 2 Daze just to insure you have a "free" counter during the first few turns (4 FoW just isn't enough).

[skecreatoR]

Whats with all those Gay/R threads lately

Anywho, as I stated just yesterday, I want consistency in my fish builds, as Curiosity is NOT the Intuition/AK engine, but as fish is an all different build, it doesn't really matter. Fish have a huge thread density as it runs only 3-4 Restricted cards, and these cards is always useful when drawn.

But when cards aren't restricted, I find it way better to run larger numbers, although 2 of a card is justified in some cases.

I run the following, which is very standardish:

4 x Curiosity
4 x Standstill

3 x Misdirection
3 x Stifle
4 x Force of Will
2 x Daze
4 x Null Rod

The last is very much up to debate. There is no card I would rather draw in these times, they are probably the card most Artifex decks would target before anything else, and therefore it is simply a must to draw as many as possible, especially with the ever steady rise in the Slaver decks appearances.

You get flooded with 4, but flood also means you draw them. This is a point I would very much raise to debate, as I have found it so effective I don't want it as 3-ofs anymore. Thoughts?

[Swanky]

I would go up to 3, possibly 4 Dazes at the expense of Misdirection.  The latter has definitely failed to impress me in testing, whereas Daze seems to be pretty effective.  Daze, like Spiketail Hatchling, has the ability to generate opponent-induced tempo disruption in that once they know you carry Daze, they may not play as aggressively as they otherwise would.  This is subject to debate, of course- there are many players who simply force the issue by playing aggressively, using superior draw to compensate for any suprises.  Regardless, it has a notable deterrence effect to it that I've come to enjoy.  

As far as Null Rod, the above person was absolutely correct.  4 is the optimal number, as you want to disrupt those opponents whom Null Rod hurts the most as soon as possible.  If you can lay down a 1st turn Rod, bully for you Nigel.

[Pern]

I'm a huge fan of running one random Echoing Truth.
I like having a general answer to troublesome permanents.

Rod doesn't stop Workshop, or I would run four also.
If you play a second you're begging for Rack and Ruin.
My one Shaman is partially my fourth Rod.

[rvs]

Sigil of Sleep: i don't think this is that great.

Yeah, I thought this too until Tony Soto (NoYuo) pointed out that Sigil really works best with Gilded Drake.  You get their critter and then bounce your Drake.

Dave

The drake will just block the creature with the sigil on it. And don't tell me he runs Lord of Atlantis and some way to give the opponent an island

[Hanzalot]

Drake won't block a lavamancer with sigil on it...

[sparticus216]

Throwing in my 2 cents on the null rod issue, i belive that Either 2 or 4 sounds like its the best match up for main. I think that in most metagames you will find null rod is almost never a Dead card, especialy in heavy Slaver metagames. And assuming you were to face a slaver/workshop player for every match you would want 4. There are not many other prevailent decks that dont run potent artifacts for you to stop. And by this logic i think it would be in some NOT all metagames to run 4 and board them out game 2/3. So I belive that observing the succes of decks like slaver/draw7s/workshop decks, that running 4 MD rods is best.....

[wuaffiliate]

Null rod
2 is too few to have any real impact game 1.
3 OR 4 are the magic numbers, id rather run 3 myself, i hate drawing multiples.
I would rather draw my shaman as my 4th Rod.

Sigil of Sleep
Its mostly for the aggro matchup which can sometimes be hard.
i run 4 grims and 2 razorfins now so i run 1 sword and 2 sigil.
you can have a 3rd turn average ACTIVE razorfin/grim with sigil.
i dont bring it in vs tog, i dont need help vs tog what so ever.

Daze
I dislike daze, good players will always be able to play arround it, id rather have extra good cards like stifle.

Echoing Truth
I did see that in your 1 fish list, i would think it would work quite well.
How did it treat you at waterbury?

Fire/Ice
I run 2 BEB SB and 1 f/i maindeck to deal with welders.
Ive not had any problems vs slaver at all.
I played vs 3 slavers (2x control and 1x shop) and 2-0 them all, BeBs, and RnR are all i really want to deal with slaver/shops.
I run 1 maindeck Fire/Ice as my random maindeck slot and since its better than Daze.
BeB i think is greater than f/i because it deals with crap like Bloodmoon also.

Misdirection:
I run no more than 1, and it takes a HELLA lot of self control not to drop it.
Its just never been that good for me really, its just my random 5th fow.
It had misded ancestrals and removal at times, so it stays.
I would really stay away from playing alot of them.

EDIT: damn this posting style OWNZ.

[TheRock]

Going anywhere below 4 Curiosity is a "wtf?" play.  Once you start lowering the Curiosity count, you don't draw cards as much and that causes all sorts of problems.

I would much rather cut the 4th Standstill over the 4th Curiosity.

I haven't been running Fire/Ice main only because I have given the slots to Stifle.  However, I am beginning to lean on having one maindeck, but that's something for the metagame to determine.

[DEA]

The drake will just block the creature with the sigil on it. And don't tell me he runs Lord of Atlantis and some way to give the opponent an island

there are pingers, and there are pingers

[Pern]

Wu, you're scaring me, man.

First you like Razorfins,
then you like Sigil,
then you don't like Daze,
then you can barely keep the one remaing MisD in the deck,
then you have this totally readable posting style.

How am I supposed to tell us apart?

Oh, right, you're from the country I'm going to move to
if the wrong guy wins the election here next November.

That lone Echoing Truth won me several games in Waterbury.
There were a few other games where it was the one card in my deck that I wanted to see.

[wuaffiliate]

lol

I started using razorfins after seeing your blue fish, red fish build.
The build with no standstills maindeck only SB months ago.
That was when i realised it was good, people still seem to underestimate it.

I'm going to have to try out the Echoing Truth over my lone Fire/Ice.

What do people think of Sword of Fire and Ice?
I really like the card, but i really cant justify running more than 1 or 2.
I do run 7 pingers so sigil is superior in dealing with opposing creatures.
I believe the sword is great if you dont play many pingers, its got distinct advantages in that case.

So my conclusion in "standard" gayr you should really not run sigil.
Sticking with 2-3 Sword of Fire and Ice should suit you better.

EDIT:

Here is an old list of your Ur fish, which i believe really was the first. It was arround the time you posted that in Jamo's thread that i started to like the hunter.