The Fourth Wish and the Deed debate

[paradigm]

Adding in the fourth Cunning Wish is currently a debatable topic - it would be preferred - more to have the Artifact hate, REB, or even Fact of Fiction as opposed to another Berserk tutor - particularly in the environment currently defined by monsters such as Slaver (both types), and the Hulk mirror. The ability to fetch a Firestorm is also key to handling the FCG matchup - and can also serve as useful purpose against Fish (albeit a lesser one).

However Hulk lists are becoming tighter nowadays, with lesser room for innovation. The suggested change to support a fourth Cunning Wish becomes Pernicious Deed.

The problem with Deed is that it has become the "OH ****" fallback card as Menendian has put it. It's main purpose is obviously to clear the board of threats - however the mana cost and it's versatility are a large obstacle. The difficulty is that the spectacular plays with Deed saving a game often overshadow the times where it sits stagnantly in the first seven. Even as a reset button, the current decks it must deal with are Fish and Food Chain Goblins.

Against Fish, Deed still cannot solve the uncounterable manlands and is seen coming - thus the Fish can force you to deed the same manner which a Goblin player can force the MWC player to Wrath in the current type two meta. In addition, Fish, the beatdown in this matchup can deal with the Deed were it to come down later in the game - as Hulk must attempt to draw or tutor for it. Dropping it turn one becomes nearly impossible to accomplish, and dropping it turn two sorely destroys the attempt at Draining - while it will inevitably will be forced to pop on a single manland or a number of creatures (missing the manlands).

Against FCG the vital card to swinging the matchup for Hulk Smash is the Firestorm - which is a stronger sweep option than deed - despite the card disadvantage inherent. Deed becomes a less successful answer due primarily to the fact that it is difficult to draw out and then activate without falling behind far enough. With only one copy in the deck and facing down an onslaught of threats, trying to fallback on Deed is not viable - nor is using it as an offensive threat to Tog.

In other matchups - like Slaver, it merely gets used for a kill-Welder option. A role that the wishable BEB can also play. The Gorilla Shamans in the sideboard also compliment that role against Welder. The idea here is that Deed simply isn't providing the same strength that it once had - and the Cunning Wish can provide similar (if not stronger answers) at instant speed and are usually never a dead card like Deed can be opening hand with Fact sideboard.

As a whole it is not fast enough to be as useful. Dropping it turn two eliminates the Mana Drain or Intuition, and dropping it turn three may be two late as the damage will add up - and will likely waste much on turn four - and this is granting that it was seen in that time and did not have to be drawn or searched out. Adding the fourth Cunning provides more consistency in terms of finding the right answer (which Hulk can have problems doing) or allows one to be spent on a proactive threat like Fact.

Granted there are always metagames where Deed is necessary. However in preparation for a large-scale tournament or in a standard build of Hulk, the fourth Wish seems to become a stronger consideration, especially when the current decks for Hulk to beat are Slaver (both), Fish, and the mirror.

Thoughts?

edit: some strange html appeared and was deleted summarily.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

First, great thread...the same thing came to my mind as well. Here are my thoughts on the issue:

I really hate deed, but honestly, I think it is necessary for a large event like gencon. In the early rounds there are simply WAY too many little things tog may have to deal with. In the last tourney I played, somebody dropped a turn 1 damping matrix, and I had the deed in hand. Another game, I had a humility resolve. Granted I should have had a counter for these, it didn't matter because I had deed. There are those rare situations where you don't see a tog, and deed can win you the game. This is the first reason I run deed. The other two reasons are because of 2 other decks you didn't mention: Belcher and GAT. I see deed as being pretty darn good in these matchups. In my testing vs. belcher (atleast pre-board), a turn 1 vineyard with me holding a deed is sooooooooo game breaking. Gorilla shaman does do the same thing, but there are those times when they drop a swarm, a welder, a monolith, a vineyard, and a mana vault, while you sit there looking stupid with a shaman, and only enough mana to kill a vault. Versus GAT, Deed is pretty darn good, as it can deal with dryads (something that cunning wish can't deal with (unless you run smother).

If I were to cut deed, however, I don't think I would necessarily throw in the 4th wish. I see it enough where I feel confident with 3. Usually wish ---> answer (Mutation, firestorm, etc.) or wish----> berserk is good enough to win. I rarely find myself wishing I had a 4th wish in the board. As for the open slot, I would run either:

duress#3 or 4
Gush
Regrowth
Fact or fiction
Deep Analysis

For me, I would probably run duress#4, as combo is popping up like mad where I play and nobody is playing slaver.

But again, I really feel "naked" without a catch-all in a deck like tog, where it's almost all or nothing. I can't count how many times I've won a game where I went EOT Wish ---> Vamp---> Deed with mana drain mana coming my way.

[paradigm]

I myself am not totally sure how to feel a void left by removing Deed, or if that is the option. Cunning Wish seemed the most obvious choice if so.

The use of Mana Crypt and the third Intuition has cemented the fact that Tog is not relying on inevitability and must apply pressure in a faster manner to keep pace with Control and shop Slaver, as well as Fish and combo, which currently define the metagame. Pernicious Deed thus cannot be used as a proactive threat that you just drop and wait 'til you need it. And as an answer, a "catch-all", it does not seem to be able to fulfill that role as strongly as Cunning Wish and SB options, which can also strengthen the gameplan should the fallback not be needed.

Deed does tend to be useless more often than not at this point, particularly when testing the tier one matchups - and those most vital to Hulk Smash. It also seems apparent that other SB cards can also answer threats in a strong way, negating the power of the Deed, a topic which I will furthur discuss.

To address your points (not to defend my own per say, but rather because I'm not totally sure and want to test each option and see what hodls water)  :

In a large tournament, Deed can be invaluable - usually in round one where you can expect anything from 12-land stompy to White Weenie to the mirror. The two situations you mentioned show that Cunning Wish, while it could have dealt with Damping for a similar cost, could not deal with everything - that is acknowledged - and to lose round one is to see more of the same in round two. This remains the sticking issue for me.

Looking at the Belcher matchup it becomes difficult to use Deed - or even to get one. In this matchup you are trying to mulligan into a Force of Will, or to a lesser extent, Duress. The scenario you mentioned with the Vineyard is not perfect. If you saw a hand with deed and no moxen, would you be inclined to keep to begin with (especially sans a Force) as you can't expect a first turn Vineyard (I'm not even sure if all builds run it - but that's more a moot point) anyway. Granted Cunning Wish is no better in that scenario, but the idea is that Deed is not more spectacular. (On another tangent it is also difficult for Belcher to use Swarm)

Concerning the GAT matchup, while Deed does take care of Dryads, with a Dryad in play it becomes difficult to use Deed for the following reason - the early Dryad (which is the only concern with the Dryad - as I believe Meyer's assertion over the lesser use of a turn five Dryad is rooted in the way the matchups actually play out) forces you into the control role - you must answer the Dryad which plays into GATs counters, where they have a distinct advantage. By using a card like Snuff Out (over say, a second Coffin Purge or a card that is lesser used in the meta you anticipate) you have an instant speed answer where you can fight a counter war on your turn, take a hit, and try to resolve a key spell (Another Cunning or Tog - or even Twist/Will) on yours. To play Deed as a proactive threat before they drop Dryad also taps you out on turn two or so. Since GAT runs more pitch counters, they are better prepared to take the early counter war. And if you pop the deed, they can also take a minimal loss.

Concerning your comment about feeling "naked" without the catch-all, that is a sentiment I also feel. However I do believe that there are few sideboard answers (Rack and Ruin, Artifact Mutation, Snuff Out - which is in testing, Firestorm) which cannot accomplish the same purpose, but with added inherent versatility from the extra Cunning Wishes.

I can't count how many times I've won a game where I went EOT Wish ---> Vamp---> Deed with mana drain mana coming my way.

The question is - would a Firestorm, Rack or the like have saved you in a similar way.

Although the idea of Deed --> Wish is meant for a wide-open metagame - the matchups in mind are the mirror, slaver, and fish, since those are currently the decks to beat for Hulk. The GAT matchup is becoming more important and I appreciate your comments on that, and as for the Belcher, I feel that the change (in either way) would be more-less irrelevant, but regardless, that is not a deck that one should take serious consideration for, especially over Slaver and the mirror.

The comments are appreciated, and it seems that more discussion is needed.

The two key points are:

a) Should Deed be removed
b) If so, is Cunning Wish the best replacement. If not, what is?

[Wudil]

As I see, all I've said in my previous Post wasn't garbage to you...

I already told that but I also dislike having a Deed in a opening hand (or while I try to combo out my opponent) of course because you have to tap all your lands to put it on the board and let a window open for your opponent to use it at his full advantage but also because it's a Black AND Green spell and as most of the 4c builds of ToG are running really few Tropical Island, this isn't that easy to put on the board. (without speaking about the fact that it is not usable with a Force of Will to trash it of course...)

It means that if you have to fetch or put on the board a Tropical Island and your opponents deny it with LD, you will only have 1 Trop Island left in your library to be able to wish for Berserk and go in combo... this is quite risky to me.

Again, this card is nearly like a Psychatog in a Slavery matchup because it can be really devastating if the player that slaves you is able to remove all your hand and grave out of the game plus the possibility to clear what he wants from the board... (depending on the board position)

This cards help much in random matchups where you can face up white weenies, RG Beats or Elven and more but against these matchups, you prefer to get your combo asap while using your life points ressource to stay alive and finally kill your opponent (this is also true against Madness or Oshawa Stompy)
This cards is really useful against FCG again even if it's a bit slow to me, it's also quite usefull against Modular and TnT where this card can be gold for me, these are the matchups where it really can shine and I could miss it but you can still run some in your sideboard if you think you will face up some of these matchups during a tournament (+ Firestom in the SB is gold against them and can deal with there critters, but not wish SoTF or Food Chain)

To me, I think I really have to cut it from my maindeck in order to avoid all the disavantages it has.

And in a same role, Cunning Wish is the ideal replacement to Deed. Because it can get you any answer to the real threat you are facing but also because this is more easy to play it (only need U to be played + the cc of the spell tutored in this way where this is our main colour in the deck) while it is still part of the combo pieces and is never useless.

I found some time while I had to pitch a Wish to a FoW or use that same Wish to get an answer to a targeted threat that I had some hard time to get another Wish in order to be able to combo out my opponent which is really annoying.

The problem is that Wish has 2 purposes which is not only getting an answer to a given threat but also getting the berserk to combo out your opponent and this is the reason why I would prefer to replace the Deed by a 4th Wish.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

The problem is that Wish has 2 purposes which is not only getting an answer to a given threat but also getting the berserk to combo out your opponent and this is the reason why I would prefer to replace the Deed by a 4th Wish.

This is basically the only reason I see running a wish over the deed. Anyways, I keep deed in the deck because again, you don't gain anything ground breaking by removing it and replacing it with a wish. The deck can shuffle away chaff like nobody's buisness, and if worse comes to worse, it can pitch to tog. True, there are situations where I HATE seeing that deed, but there are also times where it's sooooooooooo amazing. it can take care of basically anything any deck can play. If you cut the deed, you suddenly have to worry about random enchantments, like humility, or moat, or survival, or stupefying touch. The point is, I don't think you gain alot by replacing the deed with a wish.

If I were going to a meta where control is dominant, I would, however, cut a deed and replace it with a something more useful, such as deep or fact. Where I play now (lots of aggro and combo), it's amazing and I wouldn't cut it.

Maybe it's just me or my playstyle, but deed has always been invaluable for me against all combo decks. My "triple threat" against combo is twist, deed, and shaman. If I see any of these early on, I will win. The usual scenario is combo dropping their hand (cheap permanents) only to have me counter their draw spell (such as a draw7, or spoils). I then deed away all their mana sources and watch them draw and hold useless cards. For some reason, this always happens when I play against combo.

As for the GAT matchup, I find deed to be amazing as well. I can usually deal with 1 dryad, as I can match it with my tog. But when they drop multiple threats, the only card in the deck that can save me is the deed.

I think you may be focusing on the tier 1 matchups too much. If you look at the rest of the matchups, I think you will realize that deed is AMAZING. Your point about Firestorm is well taken, but consider this: It is card disadvantage. granted it does save your ass, but many a times, I had to discard 3 or 4 good cards in the process.

EDIT: I forgot one thing. Versus EBA (Which seems to be more common), if you take out deed and they name cunning wish with a mage, you are in DEEP trouble.

[Covetous]

I am very much in favor of running 1 deed MD and 1 SB, for many of the reasons already discussed.  I do not run a Naturalize in my SB, and thus Deed is the only way for me to destroy enchantments.  Deed is also more versatile than a wish (in one way--in others it is not) because the deed can deal with more than one type of card, unlike the wish.  If my opponent has a damping matrix and a moat (yes, I understand this may be unlikely) then cunning wish-->naturalize (if you even run it) will not be sufficient.  Or, if my opponent has an obnoxious artifact and an obnoxious creature, then cunning wish will not be an effective answer, especially if the obnoxious creature is a meddling mage.  Deed also cannnot be REB'ed, which is a nice bonus.  Deed is a card-advantage card in a deck that thrives on card advantage.  I don't think it is bad vs. slaver because you can kill welders as well as mana artifacts and pentavites, and even larger things if you drain into the deed.  

While Hulk is not as much of a control deck as keeper or landstill, it still takes the control role in many matchups, and thus must have control cards in order to win these matchups IMHO.  The fact that you can often deed away multiple moxen to do stupid yawgwill tricks or feed the tog that little extra bit is a small but useful factor.  I rarely find myself particularly sad to draw the deed, and it is often an excellent topdeck.  Just because finding your lone deed in your first 7 may often be weak, I often find it to be gold.  And let's be fair--there are a lot of cards that people still play that suck in the opening draw (hmmm yawgwin, maybe) but you would never consider cutting because they can break open games.  And on the issue of deed-drawing consistency, you must remember that Hulk can see any card in its entire deck by turn (insert ridiculously low number here).  I would not advocate 2 MD deeds except in very aggro-intensive metagames, but I still think the oh-5h1t button is an important factor.  Deed is one of the cards that allows hulk to be so versatile--it can play aggro, combo or control with the ability to deal with anything.  And versatility is the reason that hulk is the best deck in type 1 IMHO.

However, if your goal of playing hulk is to combo out ASAP for the win, then the deed may not be the right MD choice, and neither is a mox monkey (which I also run as a 1-of for the same reason as deed--because it can win games by itself).  I run the deed and the monkey because I like being to play the control game and win if it is necessary.  Also, running deed and monkey allow me to run mana crypt which I hear is pretty good for going off quickly (but I'm still not sold on because I hate taking damage).  If I wanted to take out the monkey and the deed, I would consider the following cards to replace them:
gush
deep A
duress
mind twist (yes, I know this should be in my build but duress is so much more efficient)
cunning wish
(NOT FoF--that's my SB card-drawing wish target)
I would probably choose gush and cunning if my plan was to allow fastest combo possible.  That would leave the deck with 3 intuitions, 2 deep A's, 4 wishes and a gush which would allow stupid fast goldfishes.  But again, without deed and/or monkey, I probably wouldn't run the crypt, preventing those oh-so-yummy first turn intuitions/deep A's/wishes.

[Smmenen]

I don't understand why people like Deed.  I strongly dislike Deed for many reasons and there is only one reason I don't completely cut it from my maindeck: becuase of the Tog mirror.  You can't be the Tog deck without Deed becuase then their Deed controls the whole board.  But if not for that, it would be out in an instant.  

Deed is rather easy to play around, and doesnt attack.

Steve

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Steve, I really don't understand your reasoning in keeping Deed for the mirror...it's usually the first card I cut. There are soooooo many better cards for the mirror, namely, REB. I keep deed in cause it's insurance vs. artifact based decks and because of random things. I can see how having a deed on the board is good in the mirror, but the other player can play around it, plus, it only kills one tog (ignoring the moxes/shaman it destroys), or you trade your tog for theirs.

[Zelc]

Steve, I really don't understand your reasoning in keeping Deed for the mirror...it's usually the first card I cut. There are soooooo many better cards for the mirror, namely, REB. I keep deed in cause it's insurance vs. artifact based decks and because of random things. I can see how having a deed on the board is good in the mirror, but the other player can play around it, plus, it only kills one tog (ignoring the moxes/shaman it destroys), or you trade your tog for theirs.

I think it's more of the "you can't win until you destroy me" factor that Deed has in the mirror.  Once played, it cannot be countered, and your opponent cannot kill you short of having two psychatogs and either many turns or eating up a lot of Psychatog fodder.  Additionally, due to Berserk, the attacking Psychatog generally beats the defending Psychatog, so you wouldn't have to trade Psychatogs by blowing the Deed.  Of course, this only applies in a close game.

[eddavatar]

Deed is a card that you would be grateful when you draw it randomly late game in almost every matchup. Deed in my opinion plays the hay scarecrow role: It's there to scare people, It doesn't really really serve a major purpose in some matches but it does a little bit of something that you would be grateful it's there so that your opponent would play around it, be it in play or not. 1 is exactly the correct number for this purpose.

Maybe because of the fact that I play GAT, deed also grows my dryad so it wouldn't be as dead as it can be in tog in some matchups. But in a big tournament where randomness happen (imagine WW caught some stupid brokeness or something   ), Deed is THE best card that can pull you out of the hole. Never hestitate to drop deed on board even when it looks like it does nothing, it DOES make your opponent to play around it and buy you time to pull tog out of your @$$.

I'm seeing more and more need to have the 4th cunning wish to intuition for in case I burnt the first one and needing to get the 2nd one immediately for the kill. However, I would pull duress out for the wish first before deed because duress is so ass when the lone card in your opponent's hand is a slaver w/ welder in play.

[rvs]

Deed is just a big "oh shit" button, when for some reason something annoying resolves. It also buys you time if you play it early, since then they will need to deal with it before they can hurt you.
I'm never happy to see deed late game if I don't need it. It totally sucks. i had rather drawn a Tog, since it serves the same purpose in the deck: controlling the board.

I agree with Steve on deed. I'd love to cut it, yet find I can't.

[eddavatar]

Morefling: I do agree that drawing tog late game is infinitely better than drawing deed, but deed late game usually seal the deal as you can establish total board control with it. My sentiment is pretty much smmenen's argument where it gives you the pilot seat of how the course of the game is going to be.

Cunning wish while can still do some good late game, doesn't have the the magnitude of "0 $h17" power that deed can offer.

The question really comes down to is the 1 deed that much of a deadweight in a general metagame. I personally believe that it's a good scarecrow at worst, and thus 1 will stay in my deck for a while.

[JuJu]

Has anyone thought of Engineered Explosives? I know the ability is inferior to deed obviously but it does have it's merits. It won't spend up your black mana and green mana. It can be casted early through drain mana. It can even be blown up for less then 3 to keep your tog alive for lethal afterwards.
If the Explosives don't work out, add white and Balance [/Sarcasm] :lol: