3CB Tournament #31 Results and Discussion

[wonkey_donkey]

I’d like to congratulate Virtual and er… me (ahem) as being the winner of 3CB#31.
An unbelievable amount of draw-all entries, it got bloody ridiculous watching them come in
There were 2 eventual winners of the mise-prize (combo_dude and Thissa), and xrizzo and I came close – is this good enough?

Entrant - Deck Name – Deck

1.   wonkey_donkey -  The Nether Regions v2.0 – Bottomless Vault, Nether Spirit, Pox
2.   r_x_ - skies.dec – Island, Cloud Sprite, Daze
3.   matt – I left my lobster at school! – Saprazzan Skerry, Imaginary Pet, Forget
4.   combo_dude – catch 2-2 – Island, Nether Spirit, Foil
5.   Thissa – (No Name) - Island, Nether Spirit, Foil
6.   virtual - Obligatory sexual reference to win the best title contest.dec – Peat Bog, Powder Keg, Powder Keg
7.   Togran – “I’m a geniousâ€? – Sand Silos, Faerie Squadron, Confiscate
8.   Bubble_King – fish - Island, Cloud Sprite, Daze
9.   Alfred – Mise-master flex – Swamp, Pain-Suffering, Snuff Out
10.   xrizzo – Trickster Nabob – Island, Trickster Mage, Squee, Goblin Nabob

11.wonkey_donkey – it’s amiseing… - Swamp, Vebulid, Mind Swords
12.   matt – Wind Ensemble – Peat Bog, Dark Ritual, Rackling
13.   Virtual – Yet another Nether Spirit - Bottomless Vault, Nether Spirit, Smokestack
14.   Alfred – Led Zeppelin Drinks Sprite – Island, Cloud Sprite, Daze

How to read the table:
Match the deck# on the left with the deck # on top. Append a 1 for the last 4 decks. The #s on the right of that deck correspond to how many points that deck received versus the deck on top. (Once again append a 1 for the last 4. The 1's are missing to make the table more clear)

    0  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4   Total
   1| x 6 2 2 2 6 6 6 6 2 2 6 2 6     54
   2| 0 x 0 2 2 2 0 2 2 4 3 6 0 2     25
   3| 2 6 x 2 2 4 6 6 2 2 2 3 2 6     45
   4| 2 2 2 x 2 2 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2     26
   5| 2 2 2 2 x 2 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2     26
   6| 0 2 1 2 2 x 2 2 2 2 2 2 0 2     21
   7| 0 6 0 2 2 2 x 6 2 2 2 6 0 6     36
   8| 0 2 0 2 2 2 0 x 2 4 3 6 0 2     25
   9| 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 x 2 2 2 0 2     22
   0| 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 x 2 1 2 1     22
   1| 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 x 2 2 3     29
   2| 0 0 3 2 2 2 0 0 2 4 2 x 0 0     17
   3| 2 6 2 2 2 6 6 6 6 2 2 6 x 6     54
   4| 0 2 0 2 2 2 0 2 2 4 3 6 0 x     25

Final Standings:

1 wonkey_donkey 54
virtual
3 matt 45
4 Togran 44
5 wonkey_donkey 29
6 combo_dude 26
Thissa
8 r_x_ 25
Bubble_King
Alfred
11 Alfred 22
xrizzo
13 virtual 21
14 matt 17

A great format again, although unfortunately marred by the enormous number of available draw-entries. I feel very sorry for matt, as his deck is the strongest one available, shown by the fact that he beat the majority of people playing for the win. However, the unfortunate prevalence of nether spirit decks and fast draw-decks meant that his deck feel away a bit. A shame, but that’s the way things go. The number of draws is shown by the low winning score and the bunching around the 24-point mark.

Do xrizzo or I deserve to win the mise-prize for our entries? Xrizzo had at least 1 draw in every match, whilst I levelled every match, be it at 2-2 or 3-3. Thoughts on this? Oh, and a big thank-you to Togran for making sure that the old classic mise-deck of island/foil/nether spirit didn’t bring home the bacon… that would have been depressing. (EDIT: it is depressing. so very, very depressing)

What about next time? We’ve still got another set of sets to go, as it were, although I’m tempted to wait until 5th dawn comes out before doing this. What other options are there?

Discuss decks, post results corrections etc etc…

Tom

[xrizzo]

Do xrizzo or I deserve to win the mise-prize for our entries? Xrizzo had at least 1 draw in every match, whilst I levelled every match, be it at 2-2 or 3-3. Thoughts on this?

I wouldn't be opposed to collecting some sort of alternatively named 'mise-prize,' but the original name should be saved for a true 2/2 split all the way across.  There should be a prize for getting an even score each game (2/2 and 3/3) and a prize for drawing at least once in each matchup.

[virtual]

"I agree, there should be an aptly named prize for all splits.  It just isn't the mise-prize though.  

In hindsight, I find it funny that my 2nd entry, screwed my first entry's shot at splitting 100%.

Should there be a title for a deck that 6-0's at lease 1every deck with a win condition, and 2-2's other decks built to tie?  That's pretty much as close to the perfect 6-0 we're going to get to "the deck".  No one got it this time, but maybe next time.

Oh yea, 1 other thing, when you post which blocks are available, could you post by set instead?  I hate having to google which sets were in which blocks.

-Virtual

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh yea, 1 other thing, when you post which blocks are available, could you post by set instead?  I hate having to google which sets were in which blocks.

-Virtual

Ice Age: Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances
Mirage: Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight
Tempest: Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus
Urza's Saga: Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Destiny
Mercadian Masques: Mercadian Masques, Nemesis, Prophecy
Invasion: Invasion, Planeshift, Apocalypse
Odessey: Odessey, Torment, Judgement
Onslaught: Onslaught, Legions, Scourge
Mirrodin: Mirrodin, Darksteel, Fifth Dawn

It's not that much to remember, really. Although I'm sure it helps that I was around for it all.

[combo_dude]

Why do I lose to the confiscate deck? I simply counter the squadron and don't put the Spirit in play. It says "may put Nether Spirit into play".

Mise prize.  

[wonkey_donkey]

Why do I lose to the confiscate deck? I simply counter the squadron and don't put the Spirit in play. It says "may put Nether Spirit into play".

Mise prize.  

Oh no. Oh please, god, no.

[combo_dude]

Why do I lose to the confiscate deck? I simply counter the squadron and don't put the Spirit in play. It says "may put Nether Spirit into play".

Mise prize.  

Oh no. Oh please, god, no.

To quote that comic genius Blackadder:

OH yes.



I'm sorry - have I made things a little awkward? Or are you just annoyed that you had to give away the mise-prize TWICE? :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[virtual]

"I'm not sold.  Not really sure how this should be decided.  Should the deck be played optimally to kill if it can?  If not, then Not ONLY do I get first, but I can also get the mise-prise.  I never Have to attack.  

No offense, just opening it up for discussion.

Also, @Jacob, I've been around the whole time, just not as involved through all the sets, so some of em I haven't really remembered.  Thanks for the list though.

-Virtual

[Misemaster]

I see the mise prize has been won. Congradulations thissa and combo_dude. All things must pass eventually.

As for the issue of playing optimally, I think that if you are able to kill your opponent you should be forced to do so.  The only time not attempting to kill your opponent would be fair is if you knew you would lose taking that course of action. If the only optimal play is to go for the draw than that is what needs to be done. I hope that makes sense.

[wonkey_donkey]

Why do I lose to the confiscate deck? I simply counter the squadron and don't put the Spirit in play. It says "may put Nether Spirit into play".

Mise prize.  

Oh no. Oh please, god, no.

To quote that comic genius Blackadder:

OH yes.



I'm sorry - have I made things a little awkward? Or are you just annoyed that you had to give away the mise-prize TWICE? :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

It's not the giving out of the mise-prize twice that bothers me - it's the fact that I'm giving it away to the oldest, least original 2-2 deck ever!!

And optimal play is part of the rules - sorry virtual.

Tom

[Matt]

I say we amend the rules to say that any previous winner of the mise-prize is no longer eligible to win it in the future.

[xrizzo]

I say we amend the rules to say that any previous winner of the mise-prize is no longer eligible to win it in the future.

I second that.  This time there were so many people competing for the mize that potential matchups which may not have gone 2-2 went 2-2 because both people were trying to draw!

Of course, there are now 3 flavors of a mize prize - so Wonkey and I are still eligible for 2/3.

[wonkey_donkey]

That sounds fair enough, it must be said! I agree wholeheartedly.

Tom

[virtual]

It's not the giving out of the mise-prize twice that bothers me - it's the fact that I'm giving it away to the oldest, least original 2-2 deck ever!!

And optimal play is part of the rules - sorry virtual.

Tom

Ok, if optimal play is part of the rules, then combo_dude MUST put the nether Spirit into play, and attack with it, just like I must.  

If He is allowed to keep it in his graveyard for the draw because he "May" put it into play, then I should also get the mise prize, AND the win.  Yea or nay?  

Not saying I want both, just that if your deck can win, it Must.  And my deck is the justification of that rule.  Otherwise I could win the mise-prise as well with my deck.  

BTW, if I do win all 3 prizes, is there a prize for that

-Virtual

[Alfred]

Does the computer that plays your deck optimally know that it wants to draw? Or that it wants to win?

[Jacob Orlove]

The old rules were that each deck is played to get the "optimal" score--wins are preferred to draws are preferred to losses. So you can't "forfeit" wins--that interferes with how the other decks do AND with how they should be played.

[wonkey_donkey]

I think that if trying to win will lose you the game, you should not do anything. This is shown in matches such as fish/skies/led zepellin drinks sprite vs catch 2-2: If the first player tries to win, he will lose. Therefore neither player does anything and the game is drawn. The same principle applies in that if putting the nether spirit back into play will lose, you shouldn't do it. The easy way to think of it is how would you play a particular scenario, knowing exactly what could happen? If you find a better play, then you do that, but, effectively, you can't drop points by trying to gain more. If that made any sense.

Tom

[Jacob Orlove]

Obviously, if a strategy would lead to a loss, and doing nothing leads to a draw, you would prefer to do nothing. However, you can't choose to do nothing if you have a strategy that leads to a win.

[wonkey_donkey]

I agree. I think the confusion came from the definition of optimal and choosing a strategy that leads to a win rather than one that could lead to a win but in fact loses, if that clears anything up.

What shall we do for the next one? I'm tempted to do anything that has appeared in a basic set - how does that sound? Maybe too narrow, though.

Tom

[Matt]

Just make sure you actually ban the broken cards this time and it'll be cool.

[Lockdown]

Curses... You leave the casual forum alone for a couple weeks, and you miss the 3CB tournament .  Any idea when the next one is or what format?

[wonkey_donkey]

Well, I'll probably start it this weekend; at the moment, it's looking like being any card that has appeared in a basic set is legal, with some execptions. I'll look through the set list and ban anything that will ruin the format.

Tom