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Author Topic: [Article] Running the Vintage Gauntlet: G-M  (Read 2359 times)
Smmenen
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« on: May 13, 2004, 11:51:08 pm »

Covering Gay Red, GroAtog, Hulk, Keeper, Landstill, and UG Madness

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7292

Steve
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Machinus
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2004, 02:35:53 am »

Wouldn't adding red just make U/G weaker against all the matchups it is good against right now? You would have to remove the strip effects and become a lot more vulnerable to disruption from other aggro, but at the same time lose a lot of tempo against control like hulk. Isn't the point of U/G to overwhelm the opponent with efficient threats as early as possible, and be able to continue drawing and playing threats for enough turns to kill?
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2004, 08:12:23 am »

Why would you have to remove the strip effects?  U/G Madness runs 6 basic land.  That is more than enough to splash a color in a deck that already runs fetchlands.

You would have to remove Back to Basics from the sideboard, of course, but that is a different question.

Leo

Edit, now that I've read the article:

Quote
Therefore, I am left with two alternative explanations which are not mutually exclusive with the first. It is possible that these cards should be viewed as a group instead of individually. While they appear to answer different threats, it may be that the point is that most decks can be stunted in one way or another by any of these cards and the diversity simply works to maximize the options that Fish has when none of these cards is clearly superior. Additionally, it could just be that this was a metagame call and every time this deck is considered, these ratios change to suit the prevailing winds. While these are all possibilities, the alternative hypothesis remains real: that this deck is simply misbuilt.


While these cards do change from based on the metagame, the main reason to run a mix of non-FOW "counterspells" is that each of them is notoriously easy to play around.

Stifle is played around as much as possible these days, Daze is easy to play around if you know it is there, Misdirection is easy for may decks that have fairly few targeted effects to avoid.  You get the idea.

What this means is that if you run 4 of one, and none of the others your opponent will simply alter his gameplan to give you four dead cards in your deck.  That alteration may cost him a little bit, but it is probably worth it if he can be reasonably sure that he is affecting your game more.

However, if you have a couple of all three he is placed in a bind.  Does he play around Daze?  You only have two in your deck so it seems like it would be a bad idea to do so - but that makes Daze a very good card.  How about Stifle, Misd?  Same thing.  If he plays around him there is a good chance he is just costing himself tempo to combat a card you haven't drawn.  If he doesn't play around it these cards become very good.

Basically, the threat of these cards is at least as important as the execution.  The only reason they are there at all is to stop people from ignoring them entirely.

Leo
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2004, 09:33:58 am »

Quote from: Machinus
Wouldn't adding red just make U/G weaker against all the matchups it is good against right now? You would have to remove the strip effects and become a lot more vulnerable to disruption from other aggro, but at the same time lose a lot of tempo against control like hulk. Isn't the point of U/G to overwhelm the opponent with efficient threats as early as possible, and be able to continue drawing and playing threats for enough turns to kill?


In addition to the mana issues (figuring out the right combination of lands to run in order to get the right combination of land in play was ridiculously hard,) we ultimately stopped bothering with red when we realized that we were required to play the deck in a much slower fashion in order to win, so while we were giving ourselves added options, we were also giving our opponents greater options as well since we were now giving them more time.
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 12:12:40 pm »

Steve,

In my list, you left out the Mystical Tutor and 1 Tropical, its only 58 cards I believe.  And thanks for the compliments.  I appreciate it.

- John
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 02:45:04 pm »

Good read,

Out of curiousity, are you going to cover Spoils-Dragon when you hit S, Steve? I know you picked up the deck and gave it a try awhile back, and you briefly "alluded" to the deck in your analysis of Dragon. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the actual deck. Everybody seems to be going over the B/U and B/U/G versions, and while I would never undersale the awesome power of Necromancey and Compulsion I strongly feel the deck has some place in the metagame.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 05:34:29 pm »

I wasn't planning on it.  My plan for r-z (part three) is to cover Rector Trix, Seven-Ten Split, Stax, Slavery, and Mud.

Steve
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 08:48:36 pm »

You said that U/G madness had very few problems. The only one you stated was Chalice for 2. I can think of another card that is game over for this deck, Cursed Totem/Damping Matrix. If this deck ever becomes popular it will be easily hated.
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 10:04:15 pm »

Damping Matrix costs 3 mana, making it likely that it'll come out after you're in position to cast Circular Logic.  Chalice=2 is more deadly because it usually comes out while you still only have Force of Will to deal with it.
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 10:20:24 pm »

Quote from: jpmeyer
Damping Matrix costs 3 mana, making it likely that it'll come out after you're in position to cast Circular Logic.  Chalice=2 is more deadly because it usually comes out while you still only have Force of Will to deal with it.


Chalice for 2 costs 4 mana, that's one more than damping matrix (although other than MUD most decks with matrix don't have shop).
Still, three mana isn't very much either. They mana drain your two drop and tap a mox.
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 10:27:17 pm »

The fact that they Drained your 2 drop probably matters more than the fact that they're casting Matrix with it.  If they're going to Drain your two drop (which is usually really painful) they should just go for the throat rather than dick around with Matrix.
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