[Deck] Team GRO product: 3-Color Hulk Combo

[Ultima]

It seems to have become apparent that outside of small inexpensive metagames, 3-color Tog can't compete like before mainly because of the presence of decks housing mindslaver.  Control Slaver/Workshop Slaver have good games agsint Tog and it seems like that's mostly agianst 4-color Tog, so 3-color is just not an option for a big tourny setting like Waterbury or Gencon.

I started playing with 3-color Hulk for fun at one stage and threw a janky list together.  Then tested it against Drain Slaver in my spare time for something different.  i noticed alot of potential for 3-color Hulk inherent in its more stable mana base allowing for a more comboish style possible.

So then the ideas and innovations of the team came to action and several things became apparent.  

1. 3-Color Hulk does't have the tools to control artifact decks, so instead of trying to control Slavery and Control Slaver, try to outrace them in combo seemed like the better idea.

2. 3-color also suffers an inherent weakness in the mirror match against 4-color which is the most popular right now.  This had to be dealt with as B2B didn't seem suffecient enough to stop all the 4-color mirrors which are inevitable.

More testing and thinking went into this and our creation was born.

3-Color Hulk Combo

3 Psychatog

3 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 BERSERK
1 REGROWTH
1 Pernicious Deed

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 MERCHANT SCROLL
1 GUSH
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
2 Cunning Wish
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
5 Fetchlands

SB

1 Berserk
1 Smother
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 ENSNARE
2 Stifle
1 Duress
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Deep Analysis
2 GROUND SEAL
3 BLUE ELEMENTAL BLAST


Differences

- This build can go aggro alot faster than most other tog versions which is highlighted by its MD berserk, gush and higher tutor numbers.

- This can kill a full turn faster than Hulk normally does and more consistently with its various ways of making Tog lethal without Intuition/AK

- Ensnare is tech from extended that we imported into Combo GAT some time ago for the FCG match.  It fits naturally into this and is an amazing slot for this build with MD berserk.

- Regrowth was put in for 1 main reason: the mirror.  Regrowth is amazing in Tog.  This card breaks the mirror for you like few other cards do.  Regrowing recall, a big AK, a countered will, are all gamebreaking in the mirror match.  Additionally, regrowth can bring all kinds of plays to other matchs as replaying walk, gush, berserk, or an answer is amazing.  Remember Tog can see every card in its deck by turn 5, so don't worry about there being just 1.  You'll soon find it being a very common tutor target.

- There didn't really seem to be a need for B2B when it was finished.  I suppose it could be made to house B2B easily by dropping Library for a Swamp but i'd rather play with the card drawer as i believe its much bigger of a breaker for the mirror.

- No mind twist. Twist can be boarded but it didn't seem as good as regrowth was when it was tested for the MD.  Twist can just end games but so can regrowth, the difference being that regrowth isn't dead nearly the smae amount of time as twist can be.  Moreover, twist is bad in slaver matchs and this deck is trying to overcome this as much as possible right now.  

Thoughts/Comments?

EDIT: Sorry, forgot the Deed, I was too damn tired when i put this up.

[xrizzo]

1. 3-Color Hulk does't have the tools to control artifact decks, so instead of trying to control Slavery and Control Slaver, try to outrace them in combo seemed like the better idea.

SB

1 Berserk
1 Smother
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 ENSNARE
2 Stifle
1 Duress
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Deep Analysis
2 GROUND SEAL
3 BLUE ELEMENTAL BLAST

Let me start by saying I really like the build.  I love the Hulk archtype - and seeing new incarnations is great.

Having said that - you may notice my quote focuses on the artifact matchup.  You don't have such a fast clock that you can ignore slaver.  You have 2 SB cards which attack artifacts.  Don't you think this is a bit light?  

I admit, I have not testing the speed of the kill - but unless we are talking turn 3 consistantly, I think that some artifact hate of some sort would be of benefit.  

You mentioned this build was designed to combo out slaver - but have you actually tested it and been successfull?

Any other testing / matchup analysis that you have already done would be appreciated.

[Ultima]

Well, this build is far more geared towards the "just win" strategy.  The real problem with Slavery never was the artifacts so much as the artifact recursion.  Stopping Welders is huge and in the post-board games, you wanna win fast or play seal and counter until you win.  Like I said, tog gets lethal so fast here and MD berserk makes this little guy far more deadly than before.  Lots of times opponents get defensive real fast when they see a tog coming thinking you've got berserk in hand.

This deck goes toe to toe with drain/control slaver and pre-board is definitely in your favor because of the aggro role being stronger.  Post, it stays the same if you board properly.

Workshop is faster, but it really just depends on who draws better.  If they get a less than fast draw, you almost always win the turn before they get crazy.

[BreathWeapon]

Seeing as how 4 color Tog is running 23-24 sources, how is your manabase more stable? 22 sources, even if you have 2 Islands, seems very risky.

[Gbj]

Why not play Vampiric Tutor ? Could it be swapped in side for the Berserk...

[jazzykat]

Seeing as how 4 color Tog is running 23-24 sources, how is your manabase more stable? 22 sources, even if you have 2 Islands, seems very risky.

Well firstly he has gush which is a pseudo land. Secondly he only has needs three colors so I think he can afford to fetch the basic island earlier in the game against decks that pack strips because he can't look red for firestorm anyway. I have played 22 land tog many times and it doesn't do as bad as you think if you are dedicated to fetching basics. The only deck I could see this deck having trouble with its mana vs (most togs do by the way) fish.

Landstill could also conceivably landscrew you in a way similar to fish, and germbus can get annoying but as long as you find your islands you will probably be OK.

[Rico Suave]

When it comes down to it, the real question is how much faster is it?  What kind of goldfish are we talking about.

You could argue that certain cards you'd get from red are also fast.

[jpmeyer]

When it comes down to it, the real question is how much faster is it?  What kind of goldfish are we talking about.

You could argue that certain cards you'd get from red are also fast.

Yeah, because I've found that without 4 Gush to power Tog or to do the Fastbond combo, you really can't expect a consistent goldfish faster than turn 5 because the cards just aren't there.  You can kill turn 4, but you're really just shooting for the turn 5 kill.

[Ultima]

I can tell you from a good chunk of experience that it is not uncommon at all to kill between turns 3-4.  

If you drop the Tog turn 2 then killing turn 3-4 is not that difficult.  It does depend on whether you draw a mox or 2.  

I would probably say that we're talking a standard turn 4 than 5 now.

[kirdape3]

This deck is just Tog but built for a very aggressive metagame.  Otherwise, how badly it would suck to draw a Berserk when you wanted a Duress or another mana source to keep going.

I don't see however the increase in speed that you're claiming.  I'm getting turn 5s just because the opponent has to walk a spell into Drain so that I can draw enough cards to go off with.

[The Hamburgler]

I can't understand your reasoning. I'm not a Hulk expert, I just don't see how not running red for good sideboard options and Gorilla Shaman is good. Like, 'Tog can get easily mutilated in it's board position by an activated slaver, and has trouble with an early Timmy like a first turn Pentavus. I think this, in combination with Hulk using overrated creatures   [/tease], makes it just plain worse than 4c control-ish hulk. As it is like Workshop Slaver, if it sees a hand with a load of broken stuff that makes you cream, you're playing combo. If you see draw effects and Force of Will, you're playing control. Turning it into one or the other is a bad idea IMO, as now you lack the advantage of inconspicuousness, or sudden outbursts of combo or control.
- The Hamburgler

EDIT: Gorilla Shaman is some good I hear in Hulks controversial worst match up; Slaver

[paradigm]

Interesting concept, to be sure, as the Tog mirror and the Tog matchups are now vital to understanding the current metagame. However I don't believe this configuration is best set for handling the Tog and Slaver matchups, which are now the most important.

"There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers."

I believe that going three color with maindeck Berserk and Gush is not the best answer.

Firstly, the deck fails to play the aggro role well without a third Intuition, which becomes vital. As Menendian noted, the two-Intuition build is more for a control build - in order to apply pressure you must have three - both to draw one earlier and to also have a larger chance at a second one (for Deep Analysis).

The Berserk maindeck is certainly a twist, however it poses a major problems -it is utterly useless without a Tog in play, as noted above. In the more aggressive matchups such as Control and Workshop Slaver, which are two of the decks weakest matchups you need to survive their initial assault - if you try to force the beatdown role (which with a Berserk and hand and Tog on board one is tempted to do - despite the fact that their opponent may have a counter, or a Slaver ready) you easily play into their hands. And without red for Artifact Mutation present to reverse the matchup, it's not good times for Tog.

The correct way to be aggresive with Tog is to force through card drawing, which accelerates the graveyard and hand count so the Tog can come down as quickly as possible, and so it can be lethal once it does - adding in the Berserk is not the right answer as it is the finishing touch and is essentially useless before that point. You have to add in your Merchant Scroll and Mystical to support the Gush and Berserk which actually slows down your deck (as opposed to a third Intuition) since the mana requirement is higher and makes it more vulnerable to wastelands - which is why many (including the above posts) recommend at least 23 mana sources - testing has shown that Gush, while spectacular at times, is lackluster both versus wastelands, and against decks such as Workshop or even Control Slaver, whose density of threats prevent it from going aggro - Gush tends to shine primarily versus aggro.

Some side notes:

Going down to two Cunning Wishes is also a negative idea. The Cunnings are not there only for the Berserk but to improve your matchups by having a vast array of answers available - going down to two Cunning Wishes (at a time where trying to go up to four would not be a laughable idea) causes your worse matchups to become worse - especially with the loss of red.

Losing red loses the Shamans and REBs which force you to fall behind in both the mirror and slaver matchups. Shaman / Artifact Mutation / Firestorm for the obvious reason and REB does create a subtle difference in the mirror that BEBs aren't necessarily equipped to answer - a REB kills a Tog. Postsideboarding, if you try to use your MD Berserk to apply pressure, an REB backed by a counter is bad news - you can't try to force an aggro role in the mirror simply because of that. Lacking that edge you become vulnerable to opposing REBs, which do far more.

Recall that REBs are not only a defensive tool, but an offensive one as well for forcing through spells - an advantage with BEB does not always have, and Regrowth does not offset that disadvantage.

[OPColby]

Maze of Ith rocks this deck.

Okay, aside that point:

This deck is VERY awesome.

This is the only Tog deck I have ever liked.  I jest you not.

I LOVE when decks stick to one strategy.  The "JUST WIN" strategy of Tog seems to be the best.

This decklist looks like it would rock the mirror, not only game one, but also game two and maybe game three if you get manascrewed, (although I think the manabase is stable.)

The only thing I would change would be adding another Intution.  So you make a 61 card deck.  Who cares.  If you're scared about getting mana screwed, add in another land then.  62 cards is where I draw the line, though. :)

Fantastic job.

[Ultima]

I believe that going three color with maindeck Berserk and Gush is not the best answer.

Firstly, the deck fails to play the aggro role well without a third Intuition, which becomes vital. As Menendian noted, the two-Intuition build is more for a control build - in order to apply pressure you must have three - both to draw one earlier and to also have a larger chance at a second one (for Deep Analysis).

The Berserk maindeck is certainly a twist, however it poses a major problems -it is utterly useless without a Tog in play, as noted above. In the more aggressive matchups such as Control and Workshop Slaver, which are two of the decks weakest matchups you need to survive their initial assault - if you try to force the beatdown role (which with a Berserk and hand and Tog on board one is tempted to do - despite the fact that their opponent may have a counter, or a Slaver ready) you easily play into their hands. And without red for Artifact Mutation present to reverse the matchup, it's not good times for Tog.

The correct way to be aggresive with Tog is to force through card drawing, which accelerates the graveyard and hand count so the Tog can come down as quickly as possible, and so it can be lethal once it does - adding in the Berserk is not the right answer as it is the finishing touch and is essentially useless before that point. You have to add in your Merchant Scroll and Mystical to support the Gush and Berserk which actually slows down your deck (as opposed to a third Intuition) since the mana requirement is higher and makes it more vulnerable to wastelands - which is why many (including the above posts) recommend at least 23 mana sources - testing has shown that Gush, while spectacular at times, is lackluster both versus wastelands, and against decks such as Workshop or even Control Slaver, whose density of threats prevent it from going aggro - Gush tends to shine primarily versus aggro.

Some side notes:

Going down to two Cunning Wishes is also a negative idea. The Cunnings are not there only for the Berserk but to improve your matchups by having a vast array of answers available - going down to two Cunning Wishes (at a time where trying to go up to four would not be a laughable idea) causes your worse matchups to become worse - especially with the loss of red.

Losing red loses the Shamans and REBs which force you to fall behind in both the mirror and slaver matchups. Shaman / Artifact Mutation / Firestorm for the obvious reason and REB does create a subtle difference in the mirror that BEBs aren't necessarily equipped to answer - a REB kills a Tog. Postsideboarding, if you try to use your MD Berserk to apply pressure, an REB backed by a counter is bad news - you can't try to force an aggro role in the mirror simply because of that. Lacking that edge you become vulnerable to opposing REBs, which do far more.

Recall that REBs are not only a defensive tool, but an offensive one as well for forcing through spells - an advantage with BEB does not always have, and Regrowth does not offset that disadvantage.

I wholeheartedly have to disagree with almost everything said here.  Firstly, aggressive playing with Tog is not always forcing through card drawing.  The combo in Tog is NOT intuition/ak, its tog/berserk.  Therefore, the idea of MD berserk is to lower the mana curve for this venture and to use other spells like gush to make tog lethal faster.  Intuiton #3 is irrelevant because as Menendian also stated, Tog sees every card in its deck by turn 5 anyway.  Berserk is almost never dead because A, your playing a Tog and B, at owrst you can use it as removal.  Gush is amazing.  There was a reason why it was restricted.  Any card that draws cards is good for the control match as well as aggro.  The mirror is not decided by who draws REB but who draws the best.  REB is a good counterspell, but not a gamedecider.  Cunning wish is not there primarily to control but to fetch berserk for the win.

Most of this argument reflects the strategy of playing control and drawing cards.  This how the deck is misplayed.  You don't control and draw, you play Tog and win.  That is what this deck was designed to do faster.

This was put together not to replace the 4-color but to be an alternative to it for those who like the 3-color more and don't have to be forced into the 4-color.

[OPColby]

Sometimes the only reason you see every card in your deck by turn 5 is because of that 3rd intution.  :(

I don't understand why some people feel the need to take out the best cards in their decks.  :)  Like U/R Fish not playing Lotus.  I'm not saying Lotus is the best card in their deck, but it's the best card in magic for crying out loud.  Get with it.

:)  I don't play Tog, and I never will.  I hate Tog.  I sideboard 3 Maze of Ith to kill Tog.  Tog is my mortal enemy.

So, I don't really know what I'm talking about.  If 2 Intution works out best, then all for it, but playtest it once with 3 intution (and don't take anything out, just make a 61 card deck.)  If it doesn't do better, then I'll buy you a coke.

And by the way, with the exception of the intution thing, your above post is dead on.  You know how to play Tog.  I love the maindecked Berserk.  I mean, let's face it, you cunning wish for berserk what percentage of the time when using cunning wish?  50-75?

I never thought 3 cunning wishes was an appropriate number.  2 is perfect.

I run 2 Misdirections and 2 Stifles in my Landstill build, and I see them ALL THE TIME.  All you need to see during the game is one cunning wish, just like all you need to see is one Tog.

Also, REB often _is_ a game decider, but the game is usually neck and neck right up till that point because Tog didn't do it's job properly.

Adding unnecessary colors is absolutely always bad, even if it's for a bomb card like REB.

Name one good deck (aside Tog,) that pretty much adds in one color for only 4 cards.  I can't think of any.

Like I said, this deck should rock the mirror, even with the mirror having 4 REB's in the sideboard.

[wuaffiliate]

Name one good deck (aside Tog,) that pretty much adds in one color for only 4 cards.  I can't think of any.

GermBus...Control Slaver...Workshop Slaver...Food Chain Goblins...Ur Landstill

[OPColby]

You got me with FCG.

I meant 1 card with 4 slots, which would rule everything else out.

I'm not going to make a 'but' with FCG, but it is the heart of the deck.  It's not an unnecessary color or add-on if it's what the deck is all about.  Really, it is FCG's secondary color, not an add-on.

UR Landstill has both 4 Fire/Ice (which is Red/Blue) and usually 2-4 Lightning Bolts.

So, I'm still not seeing the argument of adding in a color almost exclusively for a sideboard card.

[wuaffiliate]

you were not specific. landstill doesnt always run bolt, alot do not.

[JuJu]

You got me with FCG.
I'm not going to make a 'but' with FCG, but it is the heart of the deck.  It's not an unnecessary color or add-on if it's what the deck is all about.  Really, it is FCG's secondary color, not an add-on.

The Main part isn't the Food Chains, It's the Goblins.