The Question of GAT

[Hi-Val]

It has come to my attention recently that GAT has been silently winning tournaments in a most ninja-like fashion. There's been a little talk over it but nothing serious and certainly not garnering the respect that must be owed to it. For a while it has been accepted that Hulk is the better deck to play than GAT, and I ask the fundamental question, Why? Here are some lists for comparison, with the pertinent differences in bold:

Hi-Val-A-Tog

Blue:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mana Drain
1 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Cunning Wish
3 Misdirection

Black:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Green:    
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Fastbond

Gold:
3 Psychatog
1 Pernicious Deed

Manabase:
4 Mox (BUGR)
1 Black Lotus
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

Smmemen's Hulk Smash

Spells:

3 Tog

Draw:
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Deep Analysis

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress

3 Cunning Wish
1 Mind Twist
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

5 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropicial Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt


What we see here is that Hulk has with it a much stronger control aspect, while GAT retains an aggro slant. It is important to note that both decks retain the same framework which allows fast Psychatogs to overwhelm the opponent and win or sit back and play the control game until the time comes to kill. Hulk has more mana sources to it and a stronger reliance on Cunning Wish.

And now the question comes to why one would play GAT over Hulk, what I feel is the crux of the debate. Hulk has historically had a problem dealing with decks like FCG, which powers out very fast and has redundant combos, as well as decks like Gay Red that apply an incredible mana-denial aspect to stunt Hulk's gameplan.

GAT alleviates many of these problems by being able to drop an early Dryad and ride it to victory instead of waiting for a Deed or Psychatog to show up. The deck's strongest threat is in a first-turn Quirion Dryad, a threat that few decks can answer. With the build posted above, it grows exponentially fast and can overwhelm a slower player. Because the decks share most of the same core, they usually play out the same. However, GAT has a much stronger early-game plan by creating an incredible threat that forces the opponent onto the defensive.

The deck runs the riskiest gambit of them all, Accumulated Knowledge. A subject of hot debate, I feel that this card warrants space in the deck even though it appears dangerous. The fact of it is, AK is a faster engine than the TFK/DA engine that other GAT decks are experimenting with. In this build, you'll see four tutors that can grab copies of AK if need be. I found that when using TFK, I often had nothing to grab with my tutors if I had already used Ancestral or FoF or Gush were not feasible to use. The AKs give something to make sure that even lowly Merchant Scroll doesn't wind up dead in hand. The abundance of tutors is beneficial in the Hulk match as well as it forces the Hulk player into a losing situation. They can Intuition for AK to grab a fast advantage, though they give up incredible long-term card advantage in doing so, they can cast the AKs to match GAT's, or they can bring in DA, which, with every casting, brings them closer to death.

This is the essential reason that AK remains strong in the Hulk match. GAT can better utilize it to its advantage, and even when it cantrips it usually ends up being a point of damage to the opponent thanks to Dryad. In addition, GAT has more tools such as Misdirection to win counter wars and steal DAs.

Now we get to why one would ever run Dryad. My simple answer is that they get better when you execute the normal game plan of casting spells and winning. It can come down frighteningly fast and apply pressure that can stop aggro decks as well. Also, it is in blocking that Dryad is usually better than Tog. With Tog, you have to expend useful resources of spells that have not been cast yet or potentially gamebreaking ones in the graveyard to make it bigger. With Dryad, you go by the usual plan of casting spells. The other strength is that the deck has a smaller reliance on its creatures. A Dryad can chump with the player knowing that they'll hit another one or a Tog pretty soon anyway. Hulk doesn't have the same luxury.

The opponents of Dryads proclaim "But they're only good on the first turn!". I reply this: It is a universally accepted rule that threats are better most times than answers. In its place, Hulk runs DA and Duress, the latter being a complete answer and not able to attack for the win. In the lategame, Duress becomes just as bad a topdeck as Dryad, though it cannot come down to kill an opponent. Also, Dryads assist in the crucial damage race that happens sometimes against decks like Hulk. If a Dryad can deal six damage, that's four less cards that need to be drawn to Tog for the win. Psychatog is a better creature than Dryad in the late game. In the early game, if a Psychatog comes down and successfully blocks a Dryad, the benefits are still obvious. The Psychatog player has expended resources to kill the Dryad while the Dryad player has just cast spells as usual. In addition, and this is important, GAT can side out Psychatogs for matchups like Slaver where Hulk cannot. Removing "I Lose" conditions from your deck can be beneficial in circumstances.

I come next to the idea of a red splash, done sometimes during the height of pre-restriction Gush GAT mania. With the rise of artifact decks, it has become necessary to use Artifact Mutation, a card that not only destroys threats but swings the game much closer to the caster of it. Artifact Mutation allows the caster to hit something like Gilded Lotus that wouldn't normally be a target and come up with a four-turn clock at the resolution. The red splash also allows for REB, a further contender in the Hulk matchup.

My reasons for playing GAT over Hulk are this: I see few matchups where playing a control deck like Hulk that plays answers is superior to a deck that runs the same answers but more significant threats.

I'd love to talk about the deck more, this is primarily to gauge interest in the topic and get a discussion going. Some points of discussion:

-Anything talked about above
-Whether Misdirection is still worth playing (I find it to be dynamite)
-Is the Red worth it?
-How few land is too few?

Let's get talking!

[Smmenen]

I am going to kill myself becuase I wrote a very long and very concise post that I destroyed by closing the window...so I'll try again:

I started off by describing that I have tried to address specifically this issue in multiple ways - artilces, posts, etc and I'll try to summarize those arguments here concisely in a point by point manner.

As a caveat, I want to be clear that my opinion of Qurion Dryad as a card is very high.  I was one of the early advocates of groatog and I posted the first Chapin gro lists on here and Bd when I played Chapin at a Columbus PTQ.  Acolytec and Parrots Emerald Alice was in part a response to me sharing the list with them - they added Oath's to the board.  

As good as I think Dryad is, there seems to be a shortsightedness in the view of people who constantly promote Dryad that only those with long memories like myself would care to rebut.  An additional problem is that many of the people who play competitive type one didn't at the time GAT was big - so I'll try and address some of that history as a way of advancing my point.  

1) 4 Gush GAT.  
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4552
That was the article I wrote after my work on the deck.  Scroll down to the very bottom and check out the last match in the tournament that I played.  

Since you probably won't do that, I'll quote it here:

Semi-Finals:
After beating the Super Grow deck in the semi-finals, I had to play against the "Hulk Smash" Meyer-Battista Tog. I was confident that I could win if I stuck to the game plan of being the Aggro-control deck. Ironically, in light of Paul's game, I played an Ancestral on his upkeep that resolved. In one of the games, I think it was this one, he had a turn 1 Time Walk. On turn 2, I played a Dryad which resolved. This is very good. I had multiple backup counterspells, which I hadn't used at this point.

He laid a land, putting him to potential Mana Drain mana. I said that I hated walking into Mana Drains: but I played a tog anyway. He Mana Drained, and I Misdirected the drain to my Misdirection. I passed the turn. I think he played an Intuition, and then I untapped and Double Gushed on turn four for lethal damage with my Tog and Dryad. Everything went according to plan.

I sided in three Duresses, and decided in the end not to side in the Divert. I also sided in a Multani's Presence. I sided out a Demonic Consultation, a Berserk, a Tog, and something else. My opening hand was a Mox Sapphire, a Mox Emerald, an Underground Sea, a Duress, a Counterspell, a Sleight of Hand, and a Merchant Scroll. He laid a land and passed the turn. I played a turn 1 Duress, which saw a Powder Keg, Cunning Wish, Gush, Yawgmoth's Will, Intuition, and a land. Thinking long game, I thought how nice it would be to deprive him of his Will, I almost took it. I wasn't scared of him Kegging away my Moxen, because that would mean one less keg for my Dryad. However, the Keg interfered with my game plan and I figured I would just have to stop the will before it happened. I laid the Sapphire and Sleighted, not using the Emerald in case he played another Keg. He played a land and passed the turn. I laid the Mox and another land. Then I tapped the Moxen for the Dryad.

He had two blue up, but no Drain. Evidently he just drew a Force of Will, because he pitched Cunning Wish... And I simply counterspelled and the Dryad resolved. Next turn, I played a second Dryad a Merchant Scroll for Ancestral. I can't remember what he did - I think he laid a land and played Intuition.

On my fourth turn, I played tog. A few turns went by and the turn before I could do lethal damage because my Dryads were 2/2s and I only had 1 Misdirection, a Force of Will, and a Fastbond. I calculated damage and I could kill him next turn with the cards in hand. He had six mana by now and I had written down that he still had Yawgmoth's Will. If he got that to resolve, my game would be over. He played a Tog, which I countered. He countered and I Misdirected, leaving me with only Fastbond in hand. Since he only had three mana up, I knew that if he played Yawgmoth's Will this turn he wouldn't be able to use it - but if he survived to the next turn, I would lose. If I Forced, I wouldn't have lethal damage... Or would I?
 
But even better, I topdecked Gush. More than enough.

The point is that even at the peak of its power, and even against a terrible Hulk deck with no Duress or even Brainstorms, it was still a threat to GAT.I bring this up to make two sub-points.  One is to compare GAT to Hulk, and to compare Tog to Dryad.  

People seem to forget that GAT stands for Gro-a-TOG.  When people think of GAT for some reason they default to thinking about Dryad when one of the most broken cards in the deck was the Tog.  4 Gush plus Tog is quite disgusting.  Rudy in fact ran 4 Togs and 3 Dryads.  I ran 4/4 but there was a good argument to be made for preferring Tog over Dryad.  Dryad was awesome on turn one-two, but after that you really didn't want to draw a creature unless it was a Tog.  I liked 4 Dryads becuase two dryads in your opening hand made every cantrip a +2/+2.  

As for how the matchup played out, GAT was a full turn faster, but make no mistake, it could lose even though Hulk was an inferior deck to GAT.  The primary advantage, besides speed, for GAT was that GAT didn't just apply pressure like GAT decks try to do today, it literally comboed out by drawing its entire deck and making a number of massive men and then took more than a few turns in a row.  Therefore, anyone who plays GAT today has an additional hurdle of convincing me that it is not just 1/2 as good as old GAT, but somehwere in the range of 70-80% as good as the old GAT decks - a difficult feat.

2) Free Spells
I don't need to mention the synergy of free spells and Dryad.
Old Gat had 12 free spells: 4 Gush, 4 Misd, 4 FoW.  Gush is restricted and Misd is simply not the powerhouse it once was.  Misd was so good becuase the old Keeper decks were running Stroke and Gyser and were often used to going ASAP for Ancestral and then regrowing it and then using yawg Will to replay it.  Darren's old keeper with Blessing just wanted to play a million Ancestrals.  The point I'm making is that Misd is not the card that it once was.  Both of these factors weigh against making Dryad good.  

3) This is the big one: As good as Dryad is, you can only run 4.  In order to be maximumly effective, you basically want to get one in your opening hand, but that is impossible in a 60 card deck, which leads to the next conclusion: you need another creature.  Chapin Gro used Ophidian (which was awesome at the time).  GAT used tog.  New Dryad decks use....Tog.  So what does that say?  If you are using Tog in the deck, then the next logical question is: if I am forced into using Tog, then is this deck with Tog better than the Tog deck with Tog - that is built around Tog and the answer invariable is: no.  It might be more accurate to say that GAT was intended to be a Dryad deck with Togs, but it morphed into a Tog deck with Dryads.  The neutering of Gush left most people convinced that as long as tog exists, Dryad is simply fundamentally flawed - that is, until this January when they started popping up again (and notice how GAT hasn't done ANYTHING outside the NE?  The old TMDinvitational had GAT win but it hasn't made a blip anywhere else.).  I'm not saying that its bad - I'm just saying that Tog is amazing anytime anywhere whereas Dryad requires a sequence of events that is conditional in order to be most effective.  This woudln't be a big deal except that Tog costs one more mana than Dryad.  Think about that.

Stephen Menendian

[Ric_Flair]

Steve,  I really appreciate your post.  And Hi-Val I am glad this thread was started.  I have played GAT for about a year, here and there.  I recently switched to Tog.  As such, I think I have a not so unique, but relevant perspective on this issue.  The thing is that despite the similarity is the decklists, these two decks are dramatically different.  Steve's point about convergence is well taken, if 2 Togs, why not more?  But I think, maybe, just maybe, there is a reason not to go Tog and simply play GAT.  I am not saying that GAT is better than Tog, but instead mere to say there ARE reasons to play GAT.

First, GAT is more aggro-control, as opposed to Tog's control combo feel.  What does this mean, besides Magic jargon?  Well it means that GAT is an easier deck to play.  Combo is the hardest of the three classic archetypes to play.  The margin of error is usally so small that one mistake is disaster.  After all, usually combo is caused by a mistake, cards fitting together that should not fit together.  Here is my point:  sometimes with GAT you get the Dryad opening and there is really not much to do besides cast spells with near reckless abandon and win with a fuckin' roided up Dryad.  Whereas in Tog your threat density, with three creatures, is quite low.  You will just be drawing and drawing and drawing, which is never bad, but sometimes while your drawing the other guy is killing you.  The other thing is that because there are more creatures you can play aggro legitimately.  Really Tog never plays or rarely plays aggro.  Usually it just plays "I win."  But when it doesn't the deck can get in trouble.  Simply put, having more creatures, and especially a good beatstick like Dryad in a deck makes the deck easier to play.

Second, GAT is more diversified.  I am not sure if this is really a strength, but I cannot help but love the fact that it plays a ton of GREAT cards.  GAT can and usually does run 2 Deeds, which help tremendously.  Tog, on the other hand, has become this rarified machine, sort of like a drag racing car.  It is really powerful and fast, but sometimes it just flies apart.

Third, and this is probably the least fact based of my assertions, GAT has a more consistent game.  It is no where near the explosion that Tog is, but because of the diversity and simplicity afforded by the Dryad and do anything strategy, the deck seems to run smoothly.  There is really no one card you ABSOLUTELY need.  If you don't get a Dryad, you will get something else.  With Tog you have three spells, essentially, draw (and tutors), counters, and Tog.  This makes for a really, really explosive mix.  GAT has a more even keeled game, but Tog is much more explosive.

Finally, GAT has Togs in it.  Usually two, and it can run the Tog engine, just not as refined.  

So I am of the mind that GAT is a totally different approach than Tog.  It is not bad Tog or Tog-lite, it is a Dryad deck that splashes Tog.  Dryads are the heart of the deck.  Secretly there is another reason I like Dryad.  I like decks that are easy to play.  Tog is great, but sometimes I feel like I am trying to disentangle a logic problem.  GAT gives me that vicersal go for the throat feel.  I like to turn guys sideways.  It is the little, dumb kid in me.  I have Tog together right now and if I can squeeze in an event before the bar prep begins I would play Tog, but god do the mirrors SUCK ASS.  Finally, I believe that GAT is far more resilient to another best deck I see alot of here:  Control Slaver.  I am not sure if I was trying convince you guys or myself, but despite the similarities I really think these are two different decks entirely.

I think the really question for GAT is what is the best draw engine.  We have seen in traditional GAT, the Brainstorm/Fetch, AK engine, but recently Ultima's Thirst engine and GI's Standstill engine have proven to be successful.  That is the issue I think GAT players need to deal with right now.

[Smmenen]

Ric, I competely agree with your first point, but think  you are completely wrong on points 2-4.  Tog is more consistent for the reasons I alluded to in my first point in my post.  That is, Dryad requires a certain sequence of events to be good.  It's not as strict as just requiring a turn one Dryad, but its no where near as free all as Tog.  In other words, it IS conditional.  But the conditions which make it good may not be THAT difficult to create.  

Second, Tog has FAR more flexible card choices than GAT.  Have you seen my last Tog SB?  Its nutty.  Cunning Wish is really the heart of my Tog deck.  I'm considering a fourth.  

As for your final comment, I think the fact that GAT players need to deal with is that Dryad is not Tog.

Steve

[Ric_Flair]

One of the sources of my Tog negativity is the fuckin matchup with Slaver.  I have been reamed in playtesting by all variations of Slaver played by tons of different people.   The second source of my angst is the mirror, which is among the more boring matchups in the history of Magic.  I know some people like those tense I got the AK advantage games, by I would prefer something a little less luck based.  

I admit that points 2-4 are a bit speculative, but I really think that the decks run differently.  GAT is not the masterpiece that Tog is.  Think of GAT like the M-16 of Vintage.  It is simple, easy to use, highly redundant and very forgiving on mistakes.  Tog, on the other hand, is a high powered sniper rifle.  

The fact is that if you expect Dryad to be Tog I am sure you will be disappointed.  Dryad is a slower steady kill, whereas Tog is the one shot monster.  Understanding this is the key to the two decks.  Dryad can sometimes place a ton of pressure on players even with a suboptimal hand.  Really Dryad and spells in an opening is quite good.  The function of the kill in the two decks is different.  Thus the two decks are different.

Steve your probably right that Tog is more modular, but GAT has stuff in the main that just makes it slaughter random stuff, i.e. two Deeds.  Tog can certainly win these matches, but GAT can do it with little skill required.  

Bottom line, I think that Tog is probably a better deck, but the two decks are different and GAT is good enough to play for its own reasons.

[aside]
I have seen many a Tog player beat themselves, whereas GAT is really too simple to have that happen.  I guess this is really not a great argument, but the truth is simple is sometimes better in the real world.  This is a horrible argument by the way.  It is basically just my experience, a personal anecdote, so please give it little weight.  I am just putting it out there to explain my position.
[end aside]

[DavidHernandez]

And now the question comes to why one would play GAT over Hulk, what I feel is the crux of the debate.

For me the answer here is "Flexibility", which I'll describe a little more after I address Steve's comment:

Tog has FAR more flexible card choices than GAT

I disagree with this.  I think the 2 decks are almost evenly matched in terms of flexibility, but I give GAT a slight edge because it can be converted to Dryad Hate.

I recognize that most decks should not have a sideboard that "converts" it to something else.  This only seemed to work with Emerald Alice, which could be converted to Oath of Druids.  In the case of my GAT build, I convert to Dryad Hate ("She-Hulk") by removing the Togs in favor of Damping Matrix.  This is awesome against the Hulk matchups and can be significant against Slaver.  Below is my current GAT list for reference:

GAT 04 Dave H June 2004

4 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Berserk

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Side:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Damping Matrix
2 Propaganda (testing vs. FCG and Madness, otherwise it is BEB #2 and 1x Oxidize)
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Coffin Purge
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Stifle
1 Fire/Ice

Dryads add an extra threat that I believe makes this deck more powerful, with the added benefit of being more fun to play.

I read Smmenen's article: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7292 and I suggest everyone study it.  It's excellent.  

There are points in it that I disagree with however, specifically:

People seem to forget that GAT stands for Gro-a-TOG. When people think of GAT for some reason they default to thinking about Dryad when one of the most broken cards in the deck was the Tog.

I certainly haven't "forgotten" about Tog being in the deck.  I'm more surprised that many Hulk players so easily dismiss Dryad as a significant threat.  Also,

Dryad was awesome on turn 1/2, but after that you really didn't want to draw a creature unless it was a Tog.

I disagree with this.  Current GAT players are happy to draw a Dryad at ANY time, even late-game. Either Tog or Dryad can finish the game for you.

Last point:

Old GAT had twelve free spells: 4 Gush, 4 Misdirection, 4 FoW. Gush is restricted and Misd is simply not the powerhouse it once was. Misd was so good because the old Keeper decks were running Stroke and Braingeyser, and were often used to going ASAP for Ancestral and then Regrowing it and then using Yawgmoth's Will to replay it

Misdirection is still the powerhouse it once was. It was good for more than turning Stroke and Geyser, and still is.  I MisD an Ancestral at least once per match, and it works on DA as well.  However, I think it's real power is in the ability to stop the opponents counter spell base by turning those counters around.  This happens in almost all matches/games.

The power of Cunning Wish must not be overlooked, as Smmenen pointed out.  This is the card that gives you the game over anything unexpected.

...So I am of the mind that GAT is a totally different approach than Tog. It is not "bad Tog" or "Tog-lite"; it is a Dryad deck that splashes Tog. Dryads are the heart of the deck...

GAT gives ... that visceral "go for the throat" feel.

...Finally, I believe that GAT is far more resilient to another best deck I see alot of here: Control Slaver...

I think the real question for GAT is "What is the best draw engine?". We have seen in traditional GAT, the Brainstorm/Fetch, AK engine, but recently Ultima's Thirst engine and GI's Standstill engine have proven to be successful. That is the issue I think GAT players need to deal with right now. (edited by DaveH to convey my point)

Amen! This really sums up my thoughts on this.

Also, my GAT build has yet to lose to any build of Slaver.  In this, I have to credit the red splash.

Finally, I think the most recent Columbus show the power of Dryads with the 2nd place finish of SuperGro:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
3 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Stifle
1 Time Walk
 4 Quirion Dryad
1 Regrowth
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (15):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
 
1 Disenchant
3 Energy Flux
4 Meddling Mage
1 Plains
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt

The fact that Dryad-centric decks are placing 1st and 2nd so often (in a field that plays significantly more Hulk and Slaver than Dryad decks) should be an indication that Dryad decks are more powerful than they are credited for.

--Dave.

[Lockdown]

I think the really question for GAT is what is the best draw engine.  We have seen in traditional GAT, the Brainstorm/Fetch, AK engine, but recently Ultima's Thirst engine and GI's Standstill engine have proven to be successful.  That is the issue I think GAT players need to deal with right now.

GI/Eastman get's credit for Standstill?    Searching through the forums, I came upon GI's Tourney thread (posted April 27):

Grostill, by Eastman (with input by GI, Hulk3Rules, & Diakonov)

4x Quirion Dryad
1x Psychatog

4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
2x Misdirection
2x Daze
2x Stifle

2x Null Rod

4x Brainstorm
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall

1x Demonic Tutor
1x Timewalk
1x Yawgmoth’s Will

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire

4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Island

3x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
3x Ground Seal
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Oxidize
2x Plaguebaerer
2x Tsabo’s Web
2x Gilded Drake
1x Null Rod
1x Naturalize

It may look like a misguided collection of anti-synergistic strategies, but its not.  Don’t think of it as control GAT, think of it as broken Fish.

As I recall... I came up with Gay Gro early February. For the most part it got shouted down .  I suppose it was just my bad luck that I chose to convert Fish to Gro, rather than GAT to Fish.  Their deck is obviously better, it's just disappointing that my idea died in ignominy, whereas other people had such success with similar ideas.  Oh well, nice to see that I was justified in trying to bring Standstill and Dryad together.

Oh, and to summarize, my reasons for playing GAT over Hulk:
1) Ease of play (Aggro-control feel)
2) Fun to play (Who doesn't like bashing face with big green men, or women, as the case may be )
3) It's a good, flexible deck

Note that I did not say that GAT is better than Hulk, I leave that point to other, more experienced players to argue; The reason I play GAT is because it's easier and funner to play while still having a very good chance of winning.

[rvs]

I hate to make such a useful post, but I'm sure some other people are wondering about this:
What did GAT win left and right? Maybe Hi-Val is reading more threads or whatever than I do, but I haven't seen a lot of GAT winning...

@Lockdown: If you have an idea, and you don't pilote it to a high finish at some tournament, then I don't see why you should get any credit. As far as I am concerned, GroStill is entirely GI, and he was nice enough to let us know that Eastman and the 2 others were part of the developement. Still, he performed, the rest didn't.

[DavidHernandez]

I think the biggest reason that players will play Hulk over GAT is that Hulk has been 99 to 100% optimized, while GAT is still being modified.  This makes GAT what Smmenen would call "not the best deck in the format".

Since it's "not the best deck", then anyone playing it isn't "really" serious about winning, because if you were, you would "play the best deck".

No one truly says that GAT is not competitive--they just say that it isn't the best deck.

GAT players on the other hand are convinced that GAT has the potential to be optimized (be "the best deck"), and are putting their builds to the test in order to prove it.  The tremendous success that has been realized thus far is not definitive proof, but i think it does give enough of a reason to hold out high hopes.

Dave

[Hi-Val]

The first part of my OP, which I didn't really articulate well, is that I feel that GAT and Hulk are pretty much the same deck, albeit from a few card choices. GAT runs Dryads and some maindeck fluff like Merchant Scroll and Gush instead of running the Intuitions, DAs and Duress.

Duress is a card that I feel is fine not running in either deck, as it gets weaker and becomes a liability against Slaver. The other cards (draw spells) are a much more difficult decision to make. Basically you run threats instead of draw spells, which may or may not find the Psychatogs in the deck in time. Also, it should be noted that Hulk can much more effectively use Mana Drain mana.

The strength I see in GAT is being able to tangle with creature-based strategies (FCG, and to a lesser extent, Gay Red). Hulk is becoming more and more combo-control. GAT is still aggro-control.

The ultimate question is whether those Dryads and a slightly different strategy is better or worse than balls-to-the-wall Hulk drawing action. A question which, unfortunately, I don't know the answer to yet.

[Vegeta2711]

So has anyone come up with the best draw cards/engine for the deck yet?

TFK, DA, Scrying, AK, Standstill, Brainstorm + cantrips (the new one), Night's Whisper... have all seemed to been tried, but noone is actually saying, 'ok this owns, this sucks, etc.'.

Optimization means you guys actually come to conclusions about the deck, not have every deck running a different draw engine or set of cards.

[Smmenen]

Hulk is becoming more and more combo-control. GAT is still aggro-control.
.

More and more?  Look at Carl's list from Gencon and look at the list I'm playing now.  It was combo-control from inception - people just don't play it correctly.

Steve

[PucktheCat]

If anything, the removal of Merchant Scrolls and addition of Pernicious Deed and Gorilla Shaman make it more control now than it was at GenCon.

Leo

[Windfall]

That's one hell of an argument, Puckthecat, lol.  I've always played Tog as a combo deck.  It's always been a combo-control deck, but recently it's adopted some control cards in order to be strong in the current metagame as well as to combat cards used against Tog (Shaman vs. Chalice, for example)

On the issue of GAT destroying Slaver decks, understand that Hulk wrecks them too.  I feel Hulk has an easy game against Slaver because of two potent cards - Mana Drain and Cunning Wish.  These two cards consistantly appear and they win games.  On top of that, Hulk has Deed and Shaman, which both pretty much ruin Slaver.  Thus, I can't see the Slavery matchup as a reason to favor GAT.

     ~Mark B.

[Grand Inquisitor]

On the issue of GAT destroying Slaver decks, understand that Hulk wrecks them too. I feel Hulk has an easy game against Slaver because of two potent cards - Mana Drain and Cunning Wish. These two cards consistantly appear and they win games. On top of that, Hulk has Deed and Shaman, which both pretty much ruin Slaver. Thus, I can't see the Slavery matchup as a reason to favor GAT.

Can you clarify a few things?

1) Are you talking specifically about workshop slaver, slaver with mana drains, or both?

2) I've gotten information from reputable sources that Workshop Slaver is a tough matchup for GAT, and that both versions are a tough matchup for Hulk.  Why do you think the opposite?

3) You've outlined cards in Hulk that swing the slaver matchup, but I can only really picture this working in something like Smennen's Hulk list, which is highly metagamed towards facing lots of workshop decks.  For a more general list, these cards can't be run in sufficient numbers to change the matchup.  In addition to this, the argument could be made that the basic strategy of slaver is enough to overcome any hate that Hulk can bring.

Similarly, GAT has to really stretch its manabase to accomodate a fourth color (red), nevermind maindeck utlity (deed) and finding room for shamans in the board.  How do you plan to flex GAT into being able to handle slaver without weakening the rest of its matchups?

[Windfall]

1) Are you talking specifically about workshop slaver, slaver with mana drains, or both?

For the most part, my experience is against Workshop Slaver, since that's what a good friend of mine has been playing for several weeks now.  The only times I lost were to Platinum Angel when my deck refused to give me a Wish or other solution to get rid of it.  I imagine Drain Slaver might be a little bit harder, but Deed and Gorilla Shaman are pretty unfriendly cards, and against Drain Slaver you don't need to worry about Chalice for 2 or 3, which is nice.

One other thing - It will take Drain Slaver awhile to set up serious problems for the opponent if it cannot resolve a Thirst for Knowledge.  Unlike Workshop Slavery, Control Slaver needs to either Drain something huge or Thirst with Welder to get Slaver into play and active.  Workshop Slaver can just hardcast its huge Artifacts because of Workshop and Gilded Lotus.  Thus, countering Thirst For Knowledge vs. Drain Slaver is even more powerful than Workshops's Thirsts.

2) I've gotten information from reputable sources that Workshop Slaver is a tough matchup for GAT, and that both versions are a tough matchup for Hulk. Why do you think the opposite?

See below.

3) You've outlined cards in Hulk that swing the slaver matchup, but I can only really picture this working in something like Smennen's Hulk list, which is highly metagamed towards facing lots of workshop decks. For a more general list, these cards can't be run in sufficient numbers to change the matchup. In addition to this, the argument could be made that the basic strategy of slaver is enough to overcome any hate that Hulk can bring.

I guess my best rebuttle here is to say that you shouldn't play a general list then.  I am playing a version only 1 card different than Smmenen's build.  I am not playing his version because I see lots of Workshops; I am playing it because it is good.  Steve knows what he's talking about when it comes to this game, and I almost always agree with what he says.  The point is, it does beat Workshop Slavery pretty well, and I imagine it has the tools to beat Drain Slaver too.  I can't see how the basic plan of Slavery will overcome hate that Hulk has.  Shamans, Deed, Red and Blue Blast, Mutation, Rack, and Mana Drain are useful against a multitude of decks, thus I don't call them "hate" for Slavery decks only.  Though it's true that they do hate out those decks and that's why you have such a good matchup!

You're last paragraph is meant for the people favoring GAT, so I have no responses to that.

[Grand Inquisitor]

You're last paragraph is meant for the people favoring GAT, so I have no responses to that

Mmmk.  Just remember this is a GAT thread.  So you should at the least say something about how Hulk is better equipped than GAT to beat Slaver variants.

I can't see how the basic plan of Slavery will overcome hate that Hulk has. Shamans, Deed, Red and Blue Blast, Mutation, Rack, and Mana Drain are useful against a multitude of decks, thus I don't call them "hate" for Slavery decks only.

This seems like a lot of cards to bring in.  Would you mind PM'ing me the list you're working with, and how you plan to sideboard against both of the slaver's (or just the workshop) so we can continue this discussion?  Maybe this is obvious, but I find things get more complicated with wish-focused decks/sideboards.  Thanks.

[rvs]

at GI: I can say something about the Control Slaver vs Hulk matchup. Now before you dismiss these findings (they are unorthodox at first), please bear in mind that I have won 2 power tourneys with either, beating the other in the process

The Hulk Perspective: (I'm going to assume 4-color, since it's >>>> 3-color)
You take out:
at least 1 Tog, 1 Intuition (of 3), 1 wish. I took out DA's too at the time.

You bring in: your 2nd deed, your 2nd shaman, 2 artifact mutations (leaving oxidize in the board). I also brought in Fire/Ice, leaving BeB in the board.  (If you run firestorm, you can safely even board in BeB's (firestorm > fire/ice, I just don't have one yet) - Never board in Reb!

Why this works:
If you have a tog in hand while you get slavered (sometimes it's just inevitable), you die. Since you don't specifically need a tog to win (you have 2 artifact mutations which are strong enough to take it home, since slaver is siding out all of it's creature hate, and boards in ReB's in place of them to combat resolved togs).
You take out a wish because you only have 2 good wish targets left. A Beb for his welder and an Oxidize for any problem artifact that needs to go. If you have a castable wish and you aren't in this situation, then you are 1) doing well, and 2) have room to start your own game plan (which means, wish for intuition or FoF/Gush, pending your preferred drawer in the board.

I side out intuition since it's strong enough game1, but I don't want to be stuck with 2 intuitions in game 2, since I also could've drawn a good card that actually was important in the matchup.

DA's are bad when you are slavered. I'm not totally sure taking out the DA's is a good idea. Maybe the duresses should go. It's a difficult call.
In any case, since control-slaver doesn't play AK, you can safely go for AK's with your first intuition anyway, and since you boarded out one, I doubt you'll intuition again in the same game.

Now, down to the real reason why this sideboard plan has worked. Now I've reached the part in this little analysis where it because more of an instintive issue, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it well. For the record, right now is the 3rd time I'm typing up this paragraph.
Game 1, I would say Slaver is the control deck, or at least wants to be. Due to the nature of Tog however, it is very difficult for them to choose what role they have to take, since it's mostly dependant on Tog's hand, which is obviously hard to access. I'll admit Slaver has some say in this judging from their first 7, but Tog's hand is more impotant in this case.

Now, this all changes in game 2 with this sideboard plan. Since you sideboarded out a Tog, and rely on Artifact Mutation a little to give you threaths, you are the control deck. This is also where the BEBs step in, since you can keep their welders off the board, and stop their sideboarded  REBs. Now here's the tricky part of the analysis: I'm pretty sure that control-slaver players side in REBs against Tog. Simply put, they side out fire/ice and platinum angel, and choose ReB's since they kill Togs and stop  a lot of Togs important cards. 'cept the most important cards! It doesn't stop deeds, and it doesn't stop shaman. Also, siding in Rebs gives the slaver player more of a control feel, and will wrongly assume it is the control deck, while in fact you are playing pre-emptive solutions (is that the right term) to their treaths.
I think I got the idea across in the last paragraph, but I can try ot elaborate on it if needed (I'm just a little tired right now).

I hope this helps.

[jpmeyer]

That's more or less what I do too with Tog.  If you just make 6-7 1/1's and plan to win like that, it almost doesn't matter if they Mindslaver you and make you like discard your hand or something because they will die very very soon.

[Smmenen]

Rudy, how do you have room in your board for Oxidize?  Did you cut REBs or Purges?  The multiple Shamans and BEBs were my idea and they work.  Shaman is really just a savage beating.  

I disagree with your SB plan though.  I think there are superior options.  I think overall you have the right idea, but there are some optimization issues at work.  

Steve

[Grand Inquisitor]

MoreFling, thanks for the matchup breakdown, it was quite helpful.

not to piss at anyone, but this thread is straying off topic.  I'm very interested in Hulk sideboard plans, and also at decisive arguments why 4c is superior to any 3c versions of Hulk.  Perhaps someone who knows the ins and outs wants to start a thread?

[Smmenen]

Why don't you start the thread yourself?  I don't think anyone here is going to spoon feed you - especially with the convention season heating up.

Steve

[Windfall]

Similarly, GAT has to really stretch its manabase to accomodate a fourth color (red), nevermind maindeck utlity (deed) and finding room for shamans in the board. How do you plan to flex GAT into being able to handle slaver without weakening the rest of its matchups?

This was your paragraph that I did not respond to.  I didn't respond because I was only posting in the first place to say that Tog can beat Slaver decks.  One of the pointers going for GAT was that it has a better matchup vs. these decks and I'm just not so sure about that.  That's all I was saying.  Apparently, that is a topic of hot debate... lol.

When I say that Hulk has Shamans, Deed, REB, BEB, Mutation, Rack, and Mana Drain - I don't bring those all in.  They are just all potent weapons against the decks we're talking about here.  Drain, Shaman, and Deed are in the maindeck, and in a way the rest are too because of Cunning Wish.  Like I said much earlier, Hulk can beat Slavery because of Mana Drain and Cunning Wish...  Again, though, it doesn't matter how many cards I'm bringing in.  You bring in what works right?  And the great thing is that these cards are good against many decks, not just Slavery, which is why Tog's SB works well.