More speed for my tog

[Gaea]

Last days myt firend and my brother was testing a new version of hulk smash, faster than the other we usually see,  saw i was very strong and sometimes won damage race vs aggro or combo decks  :shock:

Here's the first list:

-mana base-
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 tolarian academy
1 LOA
7 solomoxen
1 mana crypt

-the way i kill you-
2 aToG

-i wanna control the game-
4 force of will
4 mana drain
4 duress

-draw draw draw-
4 brainstorm
4 intuition
4 ak
3 deep analysis
1 ancestral recall

-broken-
3 cunning wish
1 demonic tutor
1 pernicious deed
1 time walk
1 yawgmoth will

Card choices:

-tolarian academy: we want to play this deck as much faster as we can, we need blu mana and we have 8 artifacts, so tolarian is just what we need to speed us up (academy mox mox sol ring, intuition and ak for 3 the same turn just to make an example)

-2 tog instead of 3: we draw very fast, we have lots of search engine so we can put without problems a tog on board, the only problem is that we lose the possibility of intuition for 3 tog, but testing we saw that we have no so much problem finding it

-3 duress no twist: twist is heavy, we want speed and use mana just to draw, play atog and wish, and also 4 duress are the best way to make an intuition resolve

-4 intuition: the objective of the deck is resolve an intuition as fast as possibile, playing 4 of them we are almost sure that we will able to able it on first or second turn, we play also 3 deep analyss totake vs control so 4 are the best choice for this deck

i think maindeck needs no more explations, sideboard is mad for our metagame:

Sideboard:
2 coffin purge (rector, dragon, madness, tnt)
1 ground seal (dragon, welder decks)
1 berserk
1 gush
1 fact or fiction
1 naturalize (dragon, ws.dec)
1 oxidize (ws.dec, null rod ecc...)
1 rushing river (useful for everything)
1 hurkyl recall (ws.dec, affinity)
1 pernicious deed (artifact and aggro decks)
1 vampiric tutor
1 smother
2 blue elemntal blast (blood moon, random red aggro, welder)

[orgcandman]

hrrm...your changes seem to defy a lot of logic and hours of testing. For instance, cutting 1 pernicious deed. Deed is so good in hulk, they're trying to find room for a 3rd maindecked. why did you cut one? Also 4 intuition seems a bit much. you're only ever gonna get AKs and DAs with it...why bother wasting an extra slot? Tolarian Academy isn't good in a deck with only 6 artifacts. you'll almost never make it worth the wasted land slot and weakened mana base.
I don't get a lot of the changes you made. Perhaps you could give reasons because it seems like you severely weaken your tog build for marginal (if any) speed gain.

[Vale_psionic]

I tried a similar version (4color instead of 3color)in a tournament in Bologna 2 weeks ago and I maneged a 3-3 result due to 2 big play mistakes. Here is a short report of my matches:

1st round: monobrown
In the first game he mull down to 5, i mull to 6 and keep an hand with 3 moxes,a land,an ak and a duress, but he starts with a first turn sphere and karn...
In the second game my speed start let me win easily the game.
In the third his first turn is Ancient Tomb---> defense grid, mana crypt ---> sphere of resistance. Me: land go. He: workshop----> trini. After next turn's smokstack I scoop.
1-2

2nd round: another monobrown
First game: he resolves a first turn trini followed by a second or third turn tangle wire. I do not miss a landrop and I mutate his trini. Now I have permanents to tap to tangle and sacrifice to smoke so I win easily.
Second game: I side in a second pernicious and, after his first turn metalworker i play a first turn pernicious that rules the game.
2-0

3rd round: dragon
First game: he doesn't draw very well and I counter all his attempts to search for a bazaar. I win easily.
Second game: I have the total control of the board due to 2 coffin purges sided in but I make the worst play mistake of my life and he resolves a xantid swarm that let him killing me on the next turn. I lose a win match.
Third game: he has a speed start with bazaar and 2 squee and I can't find an early solution.

4th round: another dragon
First game: I win at turn 4. (mox,mox,tolarian,deep on first turn with fow backup)
Second game: I win at turn 3.
2-0

5th round: B/R.
First game: He resolves a second turn specter but i mind twist him for 5 in my 3rd turn. I win easily keeping all the time i needed.
Second game: He plays a first turn wretch but I kill him in 3 or 4 turns.
2-0

6th round: Rector Tendrils.
First game: we both mull to five and I play a second turn ancestral. I win quite easily thanks to a wished purge.
Second game: he keeps an horrible hand but He topdecks on the second turn and resolves orim,twister and necro.
Third game: I have a great start and I mind twist him for 6 (with drain backup) ON TURN 2. He has no more cards in hand but I take 9 damages by mana crypt and 4 by double vampiric tutor (one after yag will) before destroying my own cypt. I do not draw another draw spell and I lose another won match.

As an overall conclusion I'm very satisfied about my deck who is very similar to the one posted by my dear friend gaea. In my list I had also the red as 4th colour because i need a maindeck shaman and sideboard rebs,firestorm (really really good),mutation and rack.
I played with 4 maindeck intuition and more than once I resolved one in my first turn.
Last note: before the tournament I playtested a lot this deck and I had great results in hulk mirror (3 maindeck deep are amazing with four intuition), other controls mirror and U/Gmadness. It worked very well also against dragon and workshop slaver. The aggro matchup is really really easy. If the opponent doesn' have counters,especially fows,  we can win in 3-4 turns without too many problems.Sometimes I need a 4th wish..

[Godot]

Deed is so good in hulk, they're trying to find room for a 3rd maindecked.

Trying to find room for a 3rd?  Who in their right mind plays 2 maindeck?  I dropped my maindeck deed a few weeks ago and finally convinced my teammate to test without it also.  The only reason to play maindeck Deed is if you're too insecure to just win.


Anyways, about the posted build...

2 Togs - if you're in a heavy control metagame I think this is a good choice, but if you face lots of randomness or decks where you can greatly increase your chances of winning just by dropping an early Tog(landstill for instance) then only having 2 can come back to bite you in the ass.

Tolarian Academy - yeah, it can fuel broken plays, but the probability of this happening is quite low.  More often than not you'll just be getting 0 or 1 mana out of this thing in the early game.  Additionally it can force you to mulligan hands that would be keepable were it a fetch/island.  Its just not consistent enough.

If your goal is to kill as quickly as possible why isnt Gush maindecked?

On the whole I just dont see how you're going to be all that much faster than a 'normal' Tog build.  By cutting red you weaken your matchups against slaver, FCG, and 4c hulk builds, and your minimal speed gain will not make up for it.

[Vale_psionic]

We have 7 maindeck artifact with 0cc and 1 with 1cc (sol ring).
A tps has 7 artifact with 0cc and 2 with 1cc (sol ring and vault).
Do you think that only one artifact can make this graet difference??
I think that 8 artifact with low casting cost are enought to play tolaria. Our intent is to play hulk like a combo but with more solidity (this is why we do not cut drains and wishes..).

[Gaea]

Vs 4c bulk we have a more solid mana base (we have 2 basic island and just 3 color), 4 duress, 4 intuition and 3 deep analysys maindeck i do not think it would be so a bad matchup for us

Yes vs slavery and food chain we lose fire/ice, artifact hate ecc... but no one plays slaver in italy and there just 1 or 2 good fcg players

Gush isnt' maindeck cause i don't wanna lose 2 lands we have 4 ak, 3 deed, ancestral and so on to draw we don't need another drawing maindeck

[Tempe]

Deed is so good in hulk, they're trying to find room for a 3rd maindecked.

Trying to find room for a 3rd?  Who in their right mind plays 2 maindeck?  I dropped my maindeck deed a few weeks ago and finally convinced my teammate to test without it also.  The only reason to play maindeck Deed is if you're too insecure to just win.

With no deed you lose to random stuff like Meddling Mage on Cunning Wish. 1 deed maindeck is almost mandatory.

[Godot]

@Gaea

There are no strips in the 4c Hulk matchup so the point about the manabase is moot.  I think you are vastly underestimating the strength of REB in that matchup.  It tips the scales for any counter war strongly in favor of the 4c player.

As for Gush, I dont think you're looking at this in the right light.  Gush is not a card drawer--its damage.  Its a FREE 6.5  damage with Tog.  IF you want to kill as quickly as possible how are you not running a card thats effectively 2 FREE Lightning Bolts.

@Tempe

Thats exactly the type of insecurity Im talking about.  Play Tog, draw cards, attack, win.  Obviously its tougher to win than normal, but I'd personally rather deal with that rare situation than the more common one of Deed sitting useless in my hand.

@Vale_psionic

TPS also plays Lotus Petal I believe, so thats two more cheap artifacts than Hulk.  Additionally TPS runs more acceleration and mass draw spells.  It will be able to see more of its deck and more effectively utilize Academy.

Just so we're clear on this though, I am not by any means saying dont play Hulk as combo.  Hulk is combolicious.  However, the changes that have been made only give it a minimal speed increase.   This will not help it at all in iits toughest matchups, which are futher weakened by the removal of red.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Wow, where to begin? I guess I'll take it one at a time.

1) 4 intution is soooooooo unecessary. If you're all about comboing out, try running 3 and a merchant scroll. a second turn drain into a merchant scroll is almost as good as having the intuition (plus it gets the wish). For me, the third intuition gets sided out many times, so I doubt you'll need 4.

2) 3 Togs. Period. You make absolute no sense when you say you want to make tog faster, and cut a tog. Decks out there DO run Stp's and creature removal, and like Godot said, dropping a tog ASAP is sooooooo important in many matchups like vs. landstill or fish, or any aggro deck for that matter. Another small point is that if you go down to 2 togs, you may have to consider pitching a tog to a force early on.

3) Why in god's name are you running academy? The mana curve isn't THAT high, and, you always have mana drain mana to use. Academy forces you to play unnecessary artifacts, and make you even MORE vulnerable to Mana Denial (Waste, shaman, rod).

4) This is just my own opinion, but Mind twist is simply amazing in a deck like this. I've won more cards with twist than I have with will. If you randomly draw twist with drain, you win. period. Although, if you want to go the combo route, I can see advantages to duress.

5) I still run 1 Deed although Godot is desperately trying to get me to cut it. I basically have it in there for a catch all. Like last night, I played in a tourney where I basically sat around, and waited for the kid to play like 3 sword of fire ice and equip his verdant force, only to have me drain his slagwurm and deed everything away next turn. Granted I could have won like 10 turns ago, it's still nice to have a catch all.

6) A red splash is amazing. You get Firestorm, which hoses so many aggro decks, and you get REB. This is so key in the mirror, I can't even begin to describe it. It's not just another counter, it's SPOT REMOVAL FOR THE TOG. After playing the mirror with some very competent Tog players, I'm convinced that drawing REB's totally breaks the mirror.

Anyways, didn't mean to sound too harsh. Good luck with your Tog build.

-Bob

[MaxxMatt]

I think that the list as a bit more work on it.

I don't like Duress number 4 ( I would have maindecked Gush instead ) and Academy seemed the only land to be cut for an evergreen Island.

-1 Duress
+1 Gush
-1 Academy
+1 Island

IMHO another point to underline is the NEED of the Third Atog ONLY to Intuition for it without being obliged to do SubPar Intuition with DOuble Tog and other Goodies ONLY to win the match with it.

Maybe the 4th Duress could be the 3rd 'Tog. Of course if your test doesnt' show you the need of it, I believe to you and Gush is the right choice for me.





On the other hand, to all the other that have shown so much harsh to this list/deckbuilder. Why? Why so much?
I think that if this exact list would have been presented and written by JP or Smmenen, anyone among us would have agreed that it would be THE NEW list to play.

If you are a bit worried/frightened/shocked by these new/different/clearly-extreme choices simply do not regret it without trying to play it. If you are at least intrigued just as me.. so... I think that this list has a good number of Great Play to Show You.


My 2 Cents

[Gaea]

@godot: he got reb yes, how many 2/3? and the counter war is in his favour? i have something more to counter for him than 2/3 cards...

I run (maindeck!!!):

4 duress
4 intuition
3 deep analysis

while he run just 2/3, 2/3 and 1/, so maindeck I'm the strongest one, after side he gains 3 reb but i still have a lot more drawing cards that he can't stop all...

@clown
you speak of a 2 turn mana drain and a 3 turn merchant for intuition... i speak of an almost sure first turn intuition for 3 ak o 3 DA and if you're lucky with tolarian you resolve both the inution and the drawing card.

I'm not saying I want a tog faster, i wanna draw all my deck asap and while are you drawing so much believe me that a tog will be in your hand

I'm running academy and as you said unecessary artifacts... so why all tog i see on this forum can run 7 solomoxen + crypt and i can't? i'm vulnerable to wasteland but if i decide to change this slot i probabily put antoher destroyable land so where is the advantage? i think is better have the possibility of starting with 4/5 and even 6 mana on first turn to resolve your goodies than starting land go...


Totally agree with the second part of maxx words  

[kirdape3]

People run things that blow up your Moxen/Crypts.  Academy is a conditional land that is strictly worse than a basic Island - oh boy, you may make 3 mana with it at some point, but you should've won already.

Also, running Academy ruins both the red plan (another land that could've been a Volcanic Island) and the Back to Basics plan (if you don't want to run red but still win games).

[Gaea]

I just wanna know why this post was moved... no anger but if mods can make some explanation when they do something i think is better for all...