In 4cControl, pitchabilty or immunity to REB?

[PucktheCat]

One of the greatest strengths I've discovered from my experience with Germbus is that the important spells (in this case, the draw spells) are invulnerable to Red Elemental Blast.

I have to say I've noticed this as well, almost to the point of grinning on the inside when I know my opponent is siding them in. I have to wonder how many times I've played a Scrying or an Angel only to have my opponent look at the REB in his hand and sigh.

Fact or Fiction has been weakened compared to what It used to be back when It was unrestricted an pushed MonoU to the top, but It's still an insane card. I'd run 3 in Keeper every day, It's often better than Skeletal Scrying as It allows to dig faster into the deck for answers and ups the blue cards count.

Obviously there are benefits to having off-color draw in Keeper and benefits to having blue draw.

My question is: which is more important for a deck like Keeper when considering its draw engine, pitchability or immuity to REB?  Or are they about balanced?  Does ease of casting have any bearing on this discussion or is a single off-color mana easy enough to find?

I don't think there is a serious blue alternative to Scrying right now, so this is probably a moot question for the time being, but since one of these two points is brought up almost every day on this board it seems like it would be worthwhile to resolve which one, if either, has merit.

Leo

Edit: Apparently Klep is not Kerz.  Who knew?

Edit again: GOD DAMN IT!!!  I am fucking incompetant today.  I honestly thought you were seaweed.

Seaweed reference removed.  
- Kowal[/color]

[Mixing Mike]

I feel that the immunity to REB outweighs the pitch factor.  Say you were playing with 3 FoF (possibly the only way to match the power of 3 Scryings), then ask yourself this: 'How many times would I pitch FoF to FoW anyways?

Having an engine that's immune to the best SB card made is good stuff.

Does ease of casting have any bearing on this discussion or is a single off-color mana easy enough to find?

I think of Exalted Angels and Decree of Justice when I read that.  White isn't exatly a huge color in T1, and all the win conditions are White.  So I'd assume that finding a non-blue color isn't that hard most of the time jsut basing that argument on the decklists.

[Kowal]

The basic focal point of my argument is that if your important spells are not blue (such as Exalted Angel and Skeletal Scrying) then you can force your opponent to expend blue cards on your stuff, further abusing your REBs and negating your opponent's.  This is also a benefit if you happen to bump in to someone that doesn't know this is 2004 and boards in the eight blast plan.  Just like before, you can tutor for Mind Twist and win, but now you can also just ignore it and enjoy goldfishing.

The essential blue base of keeper (eight counters, four brainstorms, three wishes, and the restricted stuff) keeps Force of Will highly active and highly simple to pay for.  Because of that, having draw and kill as nonblue is absolutely fantastic.

[jazzykat]

I feel that the immunity to REB outweighs the pitch factor.  Say you were playing with 3 FoF (possibly the only way to match the power of 3 Scryings), then ask yourself this: 'How many times would I pitch FoF to FoW anyways?

Good analogy, (I would take the facts over scryings personally) I would hate to throw my FOF to a FOW. I guess the point is if you are going to die, then you can A. draw cards in response and get a blue card to pitch, or B. Just pitch it.

I don't see too many decks sporting red that play less than 3 REB's in their board. When I play Hulk vs. Germbus after sbing the reason they have a pretty strong chance is that all my draw and my win conditions (took out my gorilla shamans) are blue making their REB=Gold. Mine on the other hand are far more conditional because they don't stop scrying, balance, vamp, demonic(i have this too), will(i have this too), twist(i have this too), or angels.

Now with that said Hulk is so powerful that sometimes it just doesn't matter what the other person has. You just kill them (provided you are a competent player).

[MaxxMatt]

I'm sure that if we can have both 3 Skeletals as primarily drawers AND 20-21 blue cards in the maindeck, we would not have suffered the  inabilty to pitch something to FoW expecially when it is a NEED.

I have 3 Wish AND Fire/Ice ( over the other common 4C-Control blue tools ) in the maindeck ONLY to achieve 20 Blue Cards, that usually ( not always, but usually ) let me pitch something to FoW.

I drop the Angel count down to 1 ( 2 Decrees as primarily winners ) and even with 3 Skeletals maindeck ( +1 Sided ), I don't usually need their lifegaining ability if we exclude some matchups ( Aggro and Sligh ).

I don't know if it could Alwyas function well but the swap that some Deutsch Players did during their last tourney ( 2 Angels ---> 2 Morphling ) covered both the "immunity to ReBs" Plan and the "BetterPitchability" option.

IMHO, If the field is filled of control decks it is a good move.

Against Hulk, Germbus can side out both his Angels, boarding in ALL his reBs and ALL his Skeletals. ONLY in this way you can think of being able to compare the effectiveness of the 2 different draw engine. Any other combination put Hulk in a extremely better position. If you can draw as much as him so you can survive a bit and maybe steal the game with some soldiers. Both the players make LARGE use of life points ( pletora of Skeletals and Deeps  ) so both of them can be killed really fast.

[Kowal]

Maxx, I totally disagree with most of your strategy in that post.  Heh.

Angels are amazing against Hulk because they let you pretend you're the beatdown, and make it much more difficult for them to win without getting Berserk.  In addition they fly over the tog, providing a clock that a cycled decree cannot.  And, without the Angel, your scryings will end up allowing Tog to go lethal a full turn or two ahead of schedule.

As for the Morphling thing, we all know I hate that.  But I wanted to add it doesn't fix immunity to REB, since they can still just REB it on the stack, forcing you to expend blue spells and mana or blue spells and more blue spells to stop it, allowing them to use a second REB and just wreck you.

[MaxxMatt]

I start ( playing 4C-Control vs. Hulk ) from the assumption that I can't be the beatdown against Hulk.
It is usually simply not enough.

Sometimes I resolved a fast Angel ( turn 1 or 2 ) and then I was wrecked during my turn 5 by a gigantic Atog while I'm at 30+ life points.

From my experience with Angels I'm with you that they are amzing in a lot of situations. Even comparing Morphling with Angels is not needed. Angels are better.

But while you are beting him down with an Angels, Hulk usually drew Half of His deck. With all of that cards in hand, he could easily find the needed solution.

I found instead that "racing" the draw with Tog is a pain for him, because of you ( nearly ) total Immunity to ReBs. Even if you have 1 life point you can defende yourself ( in my experience ) better after having drawn half of the deck ( as Tog ) rather than being the beatdown.

My primarily difficulty on seeing me playing 4C-Control as beatdown consist on the filling of ALL the Rebs and the Skeletals in a so tight maindeck after siding.

I side out Wishes and Stps and Fires for 4 Rebs and a Skeletal.
I fould that this configuration post side let me have both an aggressive and a control role, depending on "what I drew first" ( creatures or drawers ). I'm not sure ( test results )  that stealing games against hulk is possible with consistency by playing fast angels.
I have to draw as much as him and try to force him to spend more cards on countering my NON blu threats then me. It is the only really good strategy that gave me satisfactory victories against good Hulk players.

<3cents

[Klep]

One of the greatest strengths I've discovered from my experience with Germbus is that the important spells (in this case, the draw spells) are invulnerable to Red Elemental Blast.

I have to say I've noticed this as well, almost to the point of grinning on the inside when I know my opponent is siding them in. I have to wonder how many times I've played a Scrying or an Angel only to have my opponent look at the REB in his hand and sigh.

I am so not Kerz (not that there's anything wrong with that). :<

@Matt:  Hulk's "solution" to an Angel that's swinging for 4 is either Deed or Berserk.  If he wants to use Berserk on your Angels, then you should be winning anyway.  If he can afford to use Deed on your Angels, then he's already winning.

Hrmm... other than that, I agree with Kowal.

[PucktheCat]

@Matt: Hulk's "solution" to an Angel that's swinging for 4 is either Deed or Berserk. If he wants to use Berserk on your Angels, then you should be winning anyway. If he can afford to use Deed on your Angels, then he's already winning.

There is, of course, the solution best described as 'winning the game.'  It is in sideboards everywhere disguised as Berserk.

Sorry about the name thing.  One four letter name beginning with K is the same as another.

Leo

[Klep]

There is, of course, the solution best described as 'winning the game.'  It is in sideboards everywhere disguised as Berserk.

Sorry about the name thing.  One four letter name beginning with K is the same as another.

Leo

It's still one of his two solutions to the Angel.  Not to belittle the threat of Hulk, but it's not easy for the deck to deal with its opponent gaining 4 life every turn.

Also, it's not Kelp either.  I am so not seaweed. :<

[Jakedasnake]

This is an excellent question, and to analyze it correctly, one must take a good look at what Keeper's game plan is, and how it's draw spells are integral to the game plan.

4C Control's Draw:
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

And, to a lesser extent:
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

When you think about it, Skeletal Scrying really fits into 4C Control's gameplan most effectively. Scrying is an interesting, and powerful, card in 4C Control, because it can be cycled early on, after removal and counter magic has been used to remain in the early game, or it can be used to end the game later on, with a draw of 4/5+.

Like previously mentioned, very few other spells have this flexibility, except for Fact or Fiction, which is restricted of course. Braingeyser is a sorcery, and the UU you'd use could be put to a more effective use, like keeping Mana Drain mana open. Deep Analysis has the same problem, and that is you don't want to play aggressively against most of the field. Tapping out during your main phase cuts down a lot of the power you have with your targeted removal, Mana Drain, and Cunning Wish. Skeletal Scrying can be cast EoT, for a suitable amount of cards. Very few cards have this flexibility.

The fact that it's not Misdirectable or REBable is just an added bonus. Knowing that you can play Skeletal Scrying, and that the opponent, with less than UU open, can't effectively counter is HUGE! This kind of flexibiliy allows you to do so much, that the loss of FOW pitchability shouldn't even be considered.

Here are the spells that can be pitched to FOW, or, that you'd actually consider ditching to FOW:

4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fire/Ice
Extra Counter Magic (5-6)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction

That's 14 cards, not including Ancestral or Time Walk, which is in a 1:4 ratio to the 60 cards in the deck. Of course, one must consider the fact that Brainstorms will often be cast early to develop your game plan, but they're pitchable against Combo.

Also, we must consider the decks that'll side in REB's against us:

Tog
FCG
Mirror
Random decks with red.

Knowing that you can still play ALL of your really bomby spells, IE Yawg's Win, Exalted Angel, and the Scryings give you a TON of advantage against decks that over-board against blue.

So, all in all, I believe the power and flexibility of 4C Control's improved draw engine is without equal, at least for similar, yet un-updated, builds.

4C Control is definitely a strong deck right now, all because of Exalted Angel and Skeletal Scrying synergy, with allows the deck to have many different game plans.

-Jakedasnake