[Article] A Case For Vintage

[TheFram]

This article is aimed primarily at attracting standard and block players to Vintage by explaining the real investments needed for the format (which are, IMHO, next to none).

One of the most common complaints about Type 1 is that price barrier to entry into the format is so high. Type 1 players often offer the excuse that the cost of entry to the format is a one-time cost, and is much lower than playing Standard for a protracted period of time. This argument, while it appears strong to the indoctrinated, is both fallacious (no, Knut, not that kind) and unnecessary.

-Avi

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(Mods, if this is not the right place for this kind of article, please feel free to move this to community. I was unsure of where to put it)

[Jacob Orlove]

Nice article.

[Machinus]

Every time the growing Type 1 community is discussed, or the 'entry barrier' or comparisons between the constructed formats comes up, all of the newer players express concern over the limited cardpool, and the older players respond with 'proxy tournaments'. It is obvious NOW that unsanctioned proxy tournaments have done more good for Type 1 over the past year than WotC has done for it in the past ten, but however hard it may be for you to remember back a couple of years, it was not always this way. I would really like someone to write an article about the history of this phenomenon, detailing specifically how good Type 1 players have it now, and how the current state of Vintage is a paradise compared to the way things used to be. Newer players, and in particular, detractors of the Vintage format, do not recognize the great opportunity that these almost ubiquitous proxy tournaments have provided the community with.

The SCG tourney is doing this to some extent, but the real future of Type 1 does not lie in sparse, huge, convention-style tournaments; it lies in consistent, local tournaments, where Vintage should receive as much recognition as any other format for skilled players. The evolutions of the Type 1 community, not only addressing players, but judges, store owners, TO's, and people like Womprax and Zherbus, should be directed towards not just maintaining the level of skill and courtesy (which directly correlates to the amount of enjoyment people get out of the game), but also towards developing this attitude in newer players, and fostering an environment of generosity and kindness to players of other formats (obvious exceptions excluded) in order to encourage more participation. Most people will agree that if you have a modest collection and can trade worth a damn, you can get into this game and can have a good time with it. It is easy and sometimes preferable to intimidate and exclude, but if we are to take our game in the right direction, this is a habit that must be broken in our own towns and stores.

/rant

[wuaffiliate]

Oshawa Stompy isnt a pure aggro deck.

I do like the list you present people with, good article.

[Ric_Flair]

I am glad that you used a version of my staples list from the thread up last week.  I also liked the article, however, I think it really misrepresents the format.

The fact is that there is no longer a format, aside from casual, that allows you to by a few cards and play forever.  More and more cards that impact T2 and 1.x impact Vintage.  Thus players need current hot cards as well as uber expensive older cards.  The fact that almost all the cards that are true great in the format besides about 15 cards are new cards many still legal in T2, means that essentially Vintage is T2 will about 15 really expensive cards, dual lands, and some odds and ends.  JP has talked about this at length, so I won't here.  But the fact is Vintage players cannot ignore current sets like they used to be able too.  Furthermore, cherry picking cards is becoming more and more difficult as whole decks are being imported (See Tog, Slaver, U/G Madness, and Ravager).

The cost of playing, even with 5 to 10 proxies is really, really high.   And playing with only the best is even more expensive.  Workshop decks without proxies are now nearing the $5,000 mark.  And they need new cards too.

Good try, just a little misleading.

[TheFram]

@Ric

Your list (along with a combination of other factors, though it was probably one of the main ones) did lead me to write the article. I didn't use your list at all in creation of mine though. I simply went through Phil's articles and tried to represent the cards people would need if they got in to the format right now.

Also, I tried to convey the point that Vintage is no MORE cash intensive than standard or block if you pick your decks and proxy well. I definitely should have been clearer with that.

Furthermore, I definitely said that the cards beyond the three main staples (brainstorm, FOW, Wasteland) were optional, for the compulsive player who wants to be able to build decks on a whim. I own no where near to all those cards. If you make a decision about what you are going to play far enough in advance of a tournament, getting cards for 1 deck is no more difficult than getting cards for a standard deck a few weeks in advance of a ptq (often easier).

@ Wu

I think I had "The closest thing to a straight aggro deck" in there originally and thought it was just simpler (since this was not a strategy article in the least) to be more concise and let people make conclusions from testing.

@ Jacob

Thanks


-Avi

[Malhavoc]

But there is something you know when you play T1: it is unlikely that the cards you've bought will lower in price a lot. Playing T2, instead, when a set cycle out, 90% of the cards you have become junk and impossible to sell. When you play T1, you know your cards' values won't drop dramatically. They will probably rise instead over time, just look at the p9. A T1 player knows that if he wants to leave Magic, he will make a lot of money from all his cards. A T2 player will remain with a bunch of unsold old cards nobody want.

[Ric_Flair]

@Malhavoc:

Your right to a certain degree, but that is irrelevant to the article.  The focus of the article is on costs of entry and while high resale value may offset loses you take to enter, they do not lower the initial cost to "buy in."  In other words, being able to sell a Lotus later for $800 does not make it cheaper today.  $800 for Lotus, even if you can sell it later for the same or more, is still $800.

[Malhavoc]

@Malhavoc:

Your right to a certain degree, but that is irrelevant to the article.  The focus of the article is on costs of entry and while high resale value may offset loses you take to enter, they do not lower the initial cost to "buy in."  In other words, being able to sell a Lotus later for $800 does not make it cheaper today.  $800 for Lotus, even if you can sell it later for the same or more, is still $800.

 :lol:  Well, yes, you are certainly right, but sometimes it's not the lack of money the real problem, but the refusal to spend so much money on what it is, in the end, only a game. Knowing that money spent can be regain anytime could make more people decide to join T1.

[TheFram]

@ Malhavoc
The point I make in the article is that one does not need to buy power to play T1, so your point is somewhat moot. If a player is not willing to shell out 800$ in one lump sum, that does not mean that they are not willing to continue their current level of spending and trading (which is really all they will need to do to play in a 5 or ten proxy tournament).

-Avi

[Malhavoc]

@ Malhavoc
The point I make in the article is that one does not need to buy power to play T1, so your point is somewhat moot. If a player is not willing to shell out 800$ in one lump sum, that does not mean that they are not willing to continue their current level of spending and trading (which is really all they will need to do to play in a 5 or ten proxy tournament).

-Avi

Ok, sorry. I've understood I've gone slightly OT.

Here in Italy, however, proxy tournament are rare, or should I say non-existent. And playing unspoilerd is of course an hard path. Without proxy tournaments, being competitive in a T1 enviroment requires an entry lump.

[Ric_Flair]

The point I make in the article is that one does not need to buy power to play T1

I think that people have shown for about 10 years that it is not feasible to run decks in Vintage without Power.  And the way it is going, with the increase in the use of off-color moxen, and the increase in emphasis of huge priced, non-power cards, makes 5 proxy decks the next set of decks to be rotated out of the format.  Most decks now require at least 5 power AND Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaars.  Add to this the need for current T2 hot cards and I think the article is pretty misleading.

[whitepanther]

The list at the end of the article was actually I feel quite a beneficial tool. When actually looking at that list it becomes fairly obvious that it would not be hard to trade for and aquire most of those cards. The price of entry really has dropped with 5-10 prxoy environments appearing everywhere, who knows maybe some day there will be a Pro Tour...

[TheFram]

@ Rico

The key word there is "buy." I am not implying that people should play unpowered decks. My real intention was to publicize the existance of proxy tournaments becuase they really reduce the barrier of entry into the format. Also, if someone has already resigned themselves to keep up w/ t2 the cost of entry into vintage becomes even smaller.

I find that whenever there is a vintage article, someone will innevitable complain about the price of the deck in the forums. Publicizing the existance of proxy tourneys will hopefully draw more people into the format and minimize this whining (though I am not so foolish as to think I will have that kind of impact).

I don't think that I in any way mislead the reader into thinking vintage was cheap. I was just saying that one can play a great type 1 deck for no more than it costs to play a great t2 or extended one. I have been doing this for almost two years, and with judicious borrowing, proxying and trading, despite my lack of power, I have played even workshop decks in tournaments.

Type 1 is fun, but i have no desire to spend even standard-level money on it. I don't, but i can still play pretty much whatever I want at a 10 proxy tournament. I don't see how I was misleading anyone by making public my personal experience.

-Avi

[jdl]

The price of entry really has dropped with 5-10 prxoy environments appearing everywhere, who knows maybe some day there will be a Pro Tour...

Not unless WotC issues reprints.  The chances of them allowing player made proxies in sanctioned tournaments are nil.  "WotC Approved" proxies, while also unlikely, would at least be a possibility once they have to start looking for new sources of income.

(Yes, I know about the reprint policy, but it is hardly a legal contract.  It's a simple matter of how many people you piss off vs. how many packs of reprints you'd sell.)

[Thissa]

I actually had a talk with a Wizards employee associated with reprints, while riding back from the JSS on the shuttle to the airport (although The Atog Lord did most of the talking). Basically, they will never allow proxies and they will never reprint power or any expensive cards for the dealers' sakes. Yes, the people at WotC know about proxy tournaments, although they obviously don't advertise them, and they are glad that they exist. Great article, I hope it can clear up some of the ignorance surrounding Type 1...