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Author Topic: [Card Choice] Protecting welders, and how best to do it  (Read 1221 times)
riggy
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« on: July 21, 2004, 07:47:56 am »

Alright, so I'm re-tooling my workshop deck. After 9 months and only 3 serious changes, it's time to re-evaluate my choices. In light of this, I bring a question forth to see if anyone else has tried any of these card options.

I'm trying to find a way to better protect my welders, since right now I pack the 4 FoW and that's about their only protection. So I was looking at three cards to further strengthen my chances of keeping them around. The three cards would be Standstill, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Lightning Greaves.

The Greaves I've used before in a U/r stacker deck and it worked fairly well. It let me do stuff like jar into a welder, play it, equip it, weld the jar back in and keep going. And the untargetability was also pretty nice. This has been tried and true for me and I realize it's strengths as a welder target itself, as well as being able to be cast off a workshop, etc.

Sword of Fire/Ice I looked at briefly and while it looks strong, I've previously relegated it to the SB. It was 5 mana to make it immediately useful, as opposed to 2 for the other choices for this slot. Also, it still lets my creature to die to Swords (very prevelant in my meta). It has the benefit of being a welder target itself, as well as card draw, but I only see this as being really strong against fish. It has started showing up in random decks though so I wanted to see what other people have been experiencing with this card.

As I was looking through my collection, though, I saw Standstill and the respect it's been garnering in recent tourneys. I was thinking that Welder -> Standstill may not be bad. It's blue so it can be pitched to Force; I don't care if a person tries to break it at my eot to force me to discard since I'd most likely be discarding a welding target. At that point they can fire the welder, but presumably, I'd be able to bring back whatever I discarded before it died, or hopefully have drawn/been holding a FoW to stop their killing of the welder. Also, in a lock deck, forcing the opponent to  delay some of their spells may not be a terrible addition. Not as strong as a Tanglewire or 3sphere, perhaps, but not terrible. NOTE: I'm not necessarily focussing on a lock archetype right now, I'm just throwing out possible uses.

So my question to the community on the whole is: does anyone else have experiences or thoughts on any of the listed cards? I appreciate your thoughts and opinions. I'm done with my testing of Greaves (still finding it to be strong) and I'm working on tweaking the deck to try and incorporate Standstill better and will be trying that out over the next week or so. I'm just trying to fill out my test results with what others may have come across.

(EDIT: Correcting some minor typos)
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Kasuras
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 07:55:17 am »

I'm sorry since I don't really have anything to say about this, but could you post your decklist? Since we cannot really give you the answer without knowing the rest of the deck.

Another point: your post indicates that the pitching of fow involves discarding something. This is not the fact: you must remove a blue card from the game. I'm sorry if its my fault, but it really looks like that is what you mean.
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Plognark
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 08:52:52 am »

I've given up on protecting the little bastards. If they soak a counter or fire and ice, so be it...I just drop more threats and eventually yawg win or timetwister them back.

In TnT the haste from anger/mountain/taiga made them useful even if your opponent tries to pop them off when they hit play, but in modern workshop decks, haste isn't really available. I prefer to view them as a 1 cost must counter/kill/deal with NOW while I drop something even more scary.
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Monogreen Beatdown 4evar
DEA
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 08:54:11 am »

i was in your shoes before
i tried welder beats with sofi, i tried lightning greaves, i even tried whispersilk cloak
i gave up
you won't always have force, even after a standstill breaks
imo, just expect your welder to die
don't build a deck relying too much on him
even if you can protect him from fire/ice, lavamancers or suq'atas, engineered plague does every single one of them in
and echoing decay is another pain in the ass
i personally use him to bait counters (everyone forces a turn one welder unless they have turn 1 plow or fire in hand)

as opposed to protecting your welder, why not just go for the win?
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riggy
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 09:13:29 am »

Quote from: Kasuras
your post indicates that the pitching of fow involves discarding something. This is not the fact: you must remove a blue card from the game. I'm sorry if its my fault, but it really looks like that is what you mean.

Sorry if that was confusing. I was thinking that a Standstill in hand could be pitched to FoW. Whereas the breaking of a Standstill at eot (what is often the game plan against the card) would allow me to discard an artifact (if over 7 cards in hand).

I have problems including a decklist since I think that the inclusion of standstill would change the contents of the deck drastically. I'm simply trying to illustrate what (if any) synergies exist with welders and standstill. For example, I go Workshop, Mox, Mox, Smokestack, Welder (a strong yet reasonably common opening).  Following turn, I drop a Standstill. Or to make it more reasonable, drop the Welder and the standstill on the same turn during some point in the game. I can then use Moxen to recur whatever may be in my yard, allowing me to recur threats while the opponent works around the standstill.  Another example would be to slave and then drop a standstill. It's a 2cc Ancestral in that example. (albeit that example is much weaker given that an active slaver is a solid step towards game over).

Quote from: DEA
as opposed to protecting your welder, why not just go for the win?

I'm a huge fan of the slaver and stacker builds (been playing them since I got my first workshop last August). Neither goes for a quick finish, usually planning on a 5 to 6 turn game, minimum. Personally - in my meta - I need to plan for a long game and deal with Swords to Plowshares and Fire/Ice mainly, Gob Sharpshooters and red fishies occasionally. I rarely see either of the black cards mentioned.
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DEA
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2004, 09:19:21 am »

workshop slaver can and DOES hardcast AND activate slaver on the same turn
there are very fews games where i have slaved the opponent and he has managed to recover
imo, activating a slaver = WIN

stacker should be a very fast clock
i had a u/r version that would goldfish on turn 4 easily, turn 3 if i drew shrapnel blast
think about this, turn 1 juggernaut, turn 2 sofi swing, turn 3 pyro pillar, swing, win

btw i've been extensively testing with MW decks, and shop mox mox smokestacks welder hands are FREAKING impossible to get
i'd rather have turn 1 trinsphere Smile
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i need red mana
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