With the Star City P9 tournament behind us, what lies ahead?

[Pest]

yeah, every tournement for a while is gonne be a meta of like 90% Fisha nd 4cc and then 10% other stuff. That is why UR Phid is TECH and will own the format!!!!! haha, jk

While posts like this are not only worthless and annoying, they're also...  Uh..  They're also...  They're...

Well, I lost track of where I was going with that.  Looks like you did too.
- Kowal[/color]

[Purple Hat]

While posts like this are not only worthless and annoying, they're also... Uh.. They're also... They're...

Well, I lost track of where I was going with that. Looks like you did too.
- Kowal

pwned!!!

I was going to savagely own you too, but I decided not to because I'm happy someone got the joke.
- Kowal[/color]

[BreathWeapon]

At the very least we've proven that there is nothing BROKEN about HULK, I was getting incredibly tired of the "Restrict Cunning Wish or Intuition" remarks.

So, if 4cc and Fish "are" the metagame, that puts FCG and TnT into a level of respectability. Is there anything else were missing, like an Oath of Druids derivative ala Oath/Still or U/g Show and Tell? I know Oath sounds like a Janky suggestion, but it could prove to be a strong Metagame choice in the mix of 4cc, TnT, Fish, FCG and the possibility of U/g Madness and GAT ... which don't seem to want to die.

Also, is Chains really a metagame card anymore? How many decks in T1 don't Draw Cards? FCG? I think I can live with that.

[Purple Hat]

Also, is Chains really a metagame card anymore? How many decks in T1 don't Draw Cards? FCG? I think I can live with that.

fine point.  I think Chains is just a good card right now.  None of this metagame stuff is necessary.  I'm just waiting for the return of Eastman Control.

[BreathWeapon]

Man, I was hoping they would take Fact or Fiction off the Restricted List just so you could make EastMan Control with a more practical Draw Engine. That would be some serious good. But, as far as I can tell the only viable deck that can employ Chains is TnT, ATM.

[Klep]

Man, I was hoping they would take Fact or Fiction off the Restricted List just so you could make EastMan Control with a more practical Draw Engine. That would be some serious good. But, as far as I can tell the only viable deck that can employ Chains is TnT, ATM.

Unrestricting FoF is a terrible idea.  If it were done, there would be a lot of decks better than Eastman Control that would abuse it and have it restricted again post-haste.

[Triple_S]

If FoF is unrestricted get ready for B2B Mono-U

[Zelc]

When 4cControl and fish are the top dogs, expect change. Fish is a hate deck and 4cControl really a metagame deck. It's a format just WAITING to be smashed open.

I don't think 4cC is as much a metagame deck as it used to be.  While there are still cards like Swords to Plowshares in 4cC, the list has evolved so it is powerful enough to be able to beat just about any deck.  Like all decks, a few cards in 4cC can be replaced for metagaming purposes, but most of the deck cannot be changed without destroying the deck.  This is unlike Gay/R, who's creature and disruption base (which is about 45% of the deck) can easily change without suffering a huge blow to its inherent strategy.

[Frappie]

This is and may be the dumbest thing I have said yet on TMD, but why not morphling? If 4cc and Fish become dominant with all their targeted removal won't superman use his powers for the good of destroying fish everywhere? I didn't see many decks running either edict.

[Tha Gunslinga]

When 4cControl and fish are the top dogs, expect change. Fish is a hate deck and 4cControl really a metagame deck. It's a format just WAITING to be smashed open.

I don't think 4cC is as much a metagame deck as it used to be.  While there are still cards like Swords to Plowshares in 4cC, the list has evolved so it is powerful enough to be able to beat just about any deck.  Like all decks, a few cards in 4cC can be replaced for metagaming purposes, but most of the deck cannot be changed without destroying the deck.  This is unlike Gay/R, who's creature and disruption base (which is about 45% of the deck) can easily change without suffering a huge blow to its inherent strategy.

Why is this?  Because Aggro is absent.  You want to beat Kaeper, then bust out Ankh-Sligh, Sui, or some other strictly aggro deck.

Honestly, have people forgotten that Aggro beats Control?  I played Kaeper (Zherbus build) against a basic Ankh-Sligh, piloted by a fairly bad player, and still had a lot of trouble.  It's hard enough dealing with the 2/1's that pop out of nowhere, but when you factor in Ankh, Mox Monkey, and the Scrolls, it's game over.  I'm not even going to talk about the fun of "EOT Bolt, Incinerate.  Untap, upkeep Scroll, naming Fireblast, sac 2 Mountains, Fireblast, game" stuff I had to deal with.

[Klep]

Honestly, have people forgotten that Aggro beats Control?

Yes, because that metagame model is obsolete.  Stop using it.

[Komatteru]

This is and may be the dumbest thing I have said yet on TMD, but why not morphling? If 4cc and Fish become dominant with all their targeted removal won't superman use his powers for the good of destroying fish everywhere? I didn't see many decks running either edict.

Morphling is too slow.  You can bust out an Angel face down after a Drain and flip her over off a Lotus or whatever.  Or you can just hard cast her, since she only costs 1 more.  Morphling can still be red blasted in game 2 and requires a lot of mana available (the native 3 toughness makes it a little more difficult).  Angel is damn near unkillable for fish as well, and she gains you life: "Block your...whatever with the Angel...it dies, I gain 4, lose 2 from the other two dudes, and..." Or you can just attack and gain 4 life and afford to lose some next turn.  With Morphling, you'd have to waste mana to untap to block, then pump the toughness or make untargetable in response to Lavamancer or whatever.

[Ric_Flair]

What happened to this thread?  It quickly went into retard land, circa 2002.  Let's start get back on target.  

First I think the SCG event showed that the format is really deep.  I also think that it showed that the format, is above all else, healthy.  When budget can compete, Keeper can do well, and Aggro decks have game thanks to Workshop I think we have a healthy metagame.  

More importantly though, the metagame and winning decks shows progression in the format, something that makes these regressive comments annoying.  Look, the format has shifted and while JP's performance may not indicate otherwise, the numbers themsevles show that decks like Sui, Ankh Sligh, and others do not compete anymore.  If Keeper can change its win condition and it IS a major deck, isn't it time for foil decks to change too?  That is what Fish did.  

The other point is that The Man Show (Juggies and Strips...so funny) shows that tweaking and playskill matter here.  I am pleased with the tournament.  So let's get thinking...what is next?

[Eastman]

When 4cControl and fish are the top dogs, expect change. Fish is a hate deck and 4cControl really a metagame deck. It's a format just WAITING to be smashed open.

I don't think 4cC is as much a metagame deck as it used to be.  While there are still cards like Swords to Plowshares in 4cC, the list has evolved so it is powerful enough to be able to beat just about any deck.  Like all decks, a few cards in 4cC can be replaced for metagaming purposes, but most of the deck cannot be changed without destroying the deck.  This is unlike Gay/R, who's creature and disruption base (which is about 45% of the deck) can easily change without suffering a huge blow to its inherent strategy.

It's a metagame deck. Cards like Exalted Angel and Skeletal Scrying may seem to have ubiquitous use and just be 'powerful evolutions', but their use is in fact limited to an environment as slow as t1 has become recently.

The other point is that The Man Show (Juggies and Strips...so funny) shows that tweaking and playskill matter here.  

Ric touches on something very important here. Skill is still of dominating importance. This has become more important as the format has grown and good decklists have shown up in the hands of the former sui and sligh players.

fine point. I think Chains is just a good card right now. None of this metagame stuff is necessary. I'm just waiting for the return of Eastman Control.

Don't hold your breath.

[TheWhiteDragon]

To address the following comment, I have to say that is wrong.  Bad aggro may be on the way out, but a solid, fast, resilient, aggro deck can wreck shop.  It does beat control in many cases and can even beat combo using the right cards.  The right choice of spells and critters can even make it beat other aggro or weenie aggro.  I think aggro is on the way up, not down, and I expect to see many new GOOD aggro decks (possibly more TMS clones, Multicolor sui, etc.)

Yes, because that metagame model is obsolete. Stop using it.

[Klep]

To address the following comment, I have to say that is wrong.  Bad aggro may be on the way out, but a solid, fast, resilient, aggro deck can wreck shop.  It does beat control in many cases and can even beat combo using the right cards.  The right choice of spells and critters can even make it beat other aggro or weenie aggro.  I think aggro is on the way up, not down, and I expect to see many new GOOD aggro decks (possibly more TMS clones, Multicolor sui, etc.)

It isn't wrong.  Pure aggro and pure control don't exist anymore.  The only deck archetype in that model that is left is combo.  Take a look.  Every top deck is either combo or some hybridization of aggro or control with something else.  4CC only doesn't suck now because it can play the aggro control game.  FCG only doesn't suck because it can combo out.   That model is obsolete because it no longer has any hope of accurately describing the condition of the metagame.

[DEA]

It does beat control in many cases and can even beat combo using the right cards.

i don't disagree
oshawa's root mazes are a bitch for combo and goddamn troll ascetics are hard to remove

The right choice of spells and critters can even make it beat other aggro or weenie aggro.

if the deck can't beat other aggro decks it hardly qualifies as good aggro

Multicolor sui

you had me at sui.. i mean, at hello

well, actually, i think aggro is still good, except that to actually compete your clock has to be VERY fast
turn one juggernaut isn't good enough anymore
turn one juggernaut followed by a turn 2 grafted wargear, pyrostatic pillar, that's another story
the bar is so high right now i think you won't see many traditional aggro decks coming back into fashion

[VGB]

turn one juggernaut followed by a turn 2 grafted wargear

Why not play a pump spell that is actually good, like Cranial Plating?

[wuaffiliate]

or, dont play a pump spell, and play something good like oh say maybe another threat.

[VGB]

or, dont play a pump spell, and play something good like oh say maybe another threat.

I'd almost go so far as to say Plating in certain decks > Berserk.

Plus it turns Welders into lethal beasts.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I think the results demonstrate regional disparities. I'm not ready to discard the tech played in Canada and Europe yet. I did not see one combo deck in the top echelons. I find that strange as a whole.

As much as I like the combo-decks, with that metagame full of Fish with Null Rod AND Forces I see why Combo didn't T8. Noteworthy: Belcher was in top 8 contention during the last round (see feature match)

I think the real question is what deck does have very good matchups against both 4c-control and Fish...

Right now I'm thinking Mono-Brown Stacker or whatever you like to call it. Pretty simular to the one-man show, but faster and a little more consistent.

I can't see why people still think regular shop-decks beat 4CC. One of the things I like most in tournament is knowing my current opponent is playing workshop and he didn't go turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Smokestack. I think I have yet to loose a complete match against any Workshop-deck for about the last two years when playing true 4CC (Kee.per, The Deck, whatever). The only thing that worries me about Shop-decks atm is Chains, which might allow The Man Show to beat me.
As for TnT being a problem for Kee.per, that was when the deck was still called that AND still even had five colors. Not to say there will defintily be no way to get it going again, it will definitly take a complete redesign, though (/edit: damn auto-replace, destroyed the sense in my sentence).

Another options could be some kind of madness build, maybe take another look at Oshawa Stompy?

This on the other hand looks really promising, CAB has tested a Madness-deck (fairly similar to some versions that are online, I might say more when we've decided if someone of us is running it for next Dülmen), which looked pretty good vs 4CC (considering the Angels killed any other Madness-version thrown at it). And the fat should destroy Fish, as fast fat is really Fishs biggest problem (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think the new versions of GAT have some game against both 4C and fish; so far, I've been testing lists similar to Ultima's, and IRL have ripped through both of those decks, to my surprise. And maze of ith doesn't do jack to GAT; time walk, regrowth and yawg will see to it, and you almost always have more threats on board than fish has mazes anyway. The deck needs to be tuned, but it does have potential.

This sounds quite probable, even though in preliminary testing 4CC vs GAT seemed to be a quite even matchup. Those where far to few games to be conclusive, though.

To address the following comment, I have to say that is wrong. Bad aggro may be on the way out, but a solid, fast, resilient, aggro deck can wreck shop. It does beat control in many cases and can even beat combo using the right cards. The right choice of spells and critters can even make it beat other aggro or weenie aggro. I think aggro is on the way up, not down, and I expect to see many new GOOD aggro decks (possibly more TMS clones, Multicolor sui, etc.)

Klep is right with that, as most decks are Hybrids right now or don't do what the old metagame-scheme predicts them to do, using aggro>control>combo>aggro won't do us much good.
Most decks are Hybrid, so that matchup-scheme doesn't help understanding their matchups to much.

In addition every deck-archetype in T1 has actually so many options to be built, that it is possible to build a deck of any kind, hybrid or not, that will beat any one other archetype (control that beats aggro, combo that beats control, etc), even though that might be totally unviable, because it looses to anything else. The only exception here is that Aggro will not be able to beat Combo, as it would become aggro-control in the process. It just can't get to that speed, so it needs to run control-elements.

[DEA]

cranial plating will typically pump the naut by 2 points of power
plating gives +3/+2 without needing mana
the pyrostatic pillar basically seals the game
after 2 swings i couldn't care less if the naut dies

yes, like wu says, it's great to be able to cast a threat on turn 2
another naut or suchi would be good, but i chose pyrostatic pillar instead because it doesn't die to balance and is so painful for both combo and control
just imagine storm combo trying to go off after taking 8 damage from a juggernaut

[VGB]

cranial plating will typically pump the naut by 2 points of power
plating gives +3/+2 without needing mana
the pyrostatic pillar basically seals the game
after 2 swings i couldn't care less if the naut dies

yes, like wu says, it's great to be able to cast a threat on turn 2
another naut or suchi would be good, but i chose pyrostatic pillar instead because it doesn't die to balance and is so painful for both combo and control
just imagine storm combo trying to go off after taking 8 damage from a juggernaut

Read my flaptacular mucous membranes:

Anyone who plays grafted wargear in T1 should be shot.  At least Cranial Plating can produce a win here and there.

Sheesh, just because I say one card is better than another in a given deck, people think I am saying it should be played in T1.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I agree that aggro needs control elements like trinisphere or crucible/strip to beat combo....but it can just be too fast to lose to control at times and cards like MD chains are awesome...not to mention Trini again.
My biggest comment on this thread is that phat > equippment.  I don't care if you are playing "Attach 0: When equipped creature deals damage, you win the game,"  equipment with no critter target is utter ass.  I used to play a SoFI in TMS, but took it out.  Even the lightning greaves didn't hold their weight with an equip of 0 (equip is hard to pay with workshop mana).  Fact is, Balance can hose critters and not equipment, but if the critter is killed, the equipment is ass...and drawing mox, workshop, su-chi (assuming juggs are the optimal critter choice) is infinitely better than drawing workshop, mox, cranial plating.  Until the deck starts playing like 20+ low cc fatties, equipment sucks.  The pillars are okay, but then you hurt against other aggro decks too, and the cities add to the pain.  They may be board against combo I guess, but overall more fat is better than equipment or nifty little enchants.

[DEA]

[quote="VGB]Sheesh, just because I say one card is better than another in a given deck, people think I am saying it should be played in T1.[/quote]

you said it was better? wasn't paying attention to you, sorry, i'll try to do better next time
in testing, a plating on a juggernaut means it still dies to a lavamancer block and shoot
there are pros and cons, which you'd know if you actually tested both of them

[MrBeichner]

I used to play a SoFI in TMS, but took it out.

heh, that is actually about the only equip card I would seriously consider in a  workshop deck,  mainly due to it giving pro red and helping you keep a creature alive against rack and ruin or a welder against fire and Ice, which seems to be in everyones sideboard and secondarily allowing you to punt out an extra 4 a turn if the creature is uncontested.

I think what a lot of the naysayers who say the deck is "inconsistent" are missing out on is the huge advantage this deck gained with Crucible.  Frankly if you aren't dropping quick fat, more than likely you are dropping out a crucible and not only making your workshops wasteland proof but turning your own waste/strips into huge weapons, making it less of a big deal to get out immediate aggro and allowing you to control the tempo of the game and killing your opponent more at your leisure.

I made the switch in my own aggro workshop deck (I went 4-3 with it at SCG) and the crucible/waste recursion is just sick and has me winning matchups that were a lot tighter for me before.  I also swapped out to the multicolor mana base from running just blue/red and this has opened up a huge array of options that I didnt have before for the main deck and side.

I really think this deck is extremely strong and a lot more resilient than it is given credit for being.  It can win 30 turn games just as well as 4-5 turn ones.