[Deck Discussion] New Look To 7/10

[TrixR4Kidz]

Hi everybody, I was just curious of all your opinions on the new version of 7/10 that Me and my team members have been working on.  This deck has gone through tons of playtesting and I think is pretty fine tuned.  I'm still flirting with some ideas with it, and still open to any suggestions, so heres a list of the deck to begin with.

TST 7/10:

Mana: 29
7 SoLoMoxen
3 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana vault
3 Shivan Reef
2 Volcanic Islands
1 Glimmervoid
1 City of brass
4 Mishra's Workshops
5 Strips
1 Tolarian Academy


Fatties: 10
4 Juggernaut
3 Sundering Titan
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant


Brokeness: 15
4 Thirst for knowledge
4 Joblin Welders
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

The Glue: 6
4 Trinisphere
2 Cruicible

Choices:

Juggernaut: I chose the juggies because when I played older builds of 7/10 I often drew 3-4 fatties in my hand that were 7-8 mana and often sometimes hard to cast, I think juggies add stability to the creature base and are good to drop early for the beats while your developing a gameplan or wrecking their mana.

Razormane Masticore: This guy is a beast, he's good against alot of the upper tier decks right now and I think mainboard of him is a must right now in the metagame.  He's only 5 mana, he destroys fish, madness, and helps against other welder decks.  He's big, and has synergy with welders and crucibles on the board.

Strip sources: I've noticed alot of 7/10 builds early on didn't use wastelands in the build because it seems kind of redundant to kill off lands when you run a 7/10 Geddonmachine, but I have a hard time playing a deck without wastes, especially in the mirrior and especially against annoying active library's and manlands.  And of course they are pretty good with that crucible card too

Crucible and Trinisphere: Wow these cards have been amazing, I think you all understand why they are here, with workshops in the deck they get out of hand.  They are both really solid and never would be an option to cut.

I think the rest is pretty standard, I did add a darksteel colossus because you can just win games by tinkering him in against most decks, and it's just funny to do so, he's so HUGE! Those are my card choices, now heres how the matches have gone so far...

4cC: So far this has been the deck I've played against the most, mainly because TST likes to play it, so thats what I play against.  I think pre-sideboard this deck has the edge against the standard 4C build (zherbus', Kowals) I'd say from my games it's about 60/40 pre board, After sideboarding the odds go to about 50/50 from damn rack and ruins and mean artifact hate PS: I didn't post a sideboard because it's flexible to the meta, I don't think set sideboards are a good Idea.

Fish: Ok fish, Before boards fish bends over and takes it pretty heavily in the bum from this deck, It's really hard for fish to do much of anything to any of the fatties, and when razormane, trini, or crucible resolve, they are in a deep hole, the only circumstance fish usually wins before sideboard is Turn 1 shaman, turn 2 nullrod, or something stupid like that, and even then I can power out a fattie via workshops or tolarian, and keep them in wastelock.  I made this deck alot less vanurable to null rod, since it's running around in every damn deck these days.

Madness: Now i'm talking control madness generally because in my eyes that is the only good madness deck out.   Once again it's alot like fish, I can take it out fairly easy, not too much of a hassle, the only thing that nervous's me are the sideboard B2B's, OUCHHHH!

Joblin Foodchain: Oh noes, a bad matchup for me, Joblins are relatively fast, and I have trouble dealing with early lacky's, It depends on my hand, I'd say the matchup is 60/40 in goblins favor, The possibility of turn 1 trini's or tinker still keep this deck alive against it.

Landstill: Yea I know, this deck is pretty much garbage, BUT it can actually be a tough matchup for me.  Mainly because of nev's, other then that, I'm looking for my crucible and tryin to keep them under 4 mana, and i'm trying to tinker out a darksteel, RAWRRRR

Regular 7/10: I like the fact this deck runs juggies which make the beats slightly faster then the other 7/10, but just like any mirrior it's whoever draws a better hand and whoever can play goblin welder first pretty much, mirror matches are lame.

Hulk/GAT: All those duals makes it a semi-easy matchup, better hurry up and get out tog or dryad fast and make them huge, or beware of duplicant baby.... either way, these decks aren't that good anyway, so blah blah blah about this one.

Well thats pretty much It, i'm not sure if I really forgot anything but if I did let me know, and Suggestions would be greatly appreciated and let me know what you think about the deck. TST for lizife.



Edit: I cut the darksteel colossus and added a 3rd Titan, I found colossus to not be that useful at all! yes you've all told me that I know, I know

[Klep]

In what matchups is the Masticore better than a third Sundering Titan?

[Moxlotus]

Fish can deal with Juggies-they are not that big of a problem.  A factory takes them down.  A lavamancer+shitty 1/1 takes it down.  They seem good on paper but aren't that good in reality.

[Marton]

This deck looks a lot more like a TNT deck in the sense that it tries the fast-fat mentality and playing as many bombs as possible. The colossus and the juggernauts really seems like the weakest links of the deck. I understand the necessity for juggernaut due to the mana curve, but they really arent all that great. I would definately at least cut the 4th juggernaut for a 2nd razormane masticore (I mention this card due to mana curve over other cards).

I still don't understand exactly what is windfall doing there. I understand it is good under a locked down opponent, but it does looks like a very random card. It seems to be only good when youre in a winning position, which means it is a win-more card, and thus, excess fat. Personally I would put demonic tutor before that.

There's another thing I don't like in that decklist: you cannot deal with your opponents threats (other than creatures). All you can do is try and dump bigger creature than they do. I am unsure about how well this deck would handle a null rod and strip/waste. As a personal opinion, I really hate having no answer to some threats, and I would likely try and squeeze in a cunning wish or 2.

-marton

[TrixR4Kidz]

In what matchups is the Masticore better than a third Sundering Titan?

Fish....you can still die to a stupid ass pinger with titan out, masticore owns them and also stupid 1/1 flyers can fly over you while your titan is getting chumped.

[TrixR4Kidz]

What matron? how does a regular 7/10 deck have answers and this deck doesn't.... the point of 7/10 is to wreck their mana and play a fattie and just win from that.....

Juggernauts have been too good to cut, Even if fish can handle them, it takes out at least 2 of their creatures or a factory, Yea the mana curve was the reason they are there and plus they are 5/3 beat sticks

It does run crucible, which makes opponents strips/wastes not that affective anymore? so yea it's sort of a problem, but not too much.

Windfall, do you know what it does? how is it good only when you have an opponent locked down, usually if your opponent is locked you don't want them drawing more cards, Why does noone question timetwister in 7/10 builds when it goes against it's synergy, the reason I have windfall over twister is because it dumps artifacts into the yard and draws you cards, it's not a "win more" card, because it's good to top deck it and just draw several cards and go off and win.  I'm not really sure where you are comming from on that topic, but maybe you can clear that up

[Marton]

What matron? how does a regular 7/10 deck have answers and this deck doesn't.... the point of 7/10 is to wreck their mana and play a fattie and just win from that.....

I have never compared this deck to 7/10. I have never said that 7/10 was better or worse.

Juggernauts have been too good to cut, Even if fish can handle them, it takes out at least 2 of their creatures or a factory, Yea the mana curve was the reason they are there and plus they are 5/3 beat sticks

Right. And razormane masticore takes out more than 2 creatures. I have only said that they seemed a bit sub-optimal, meaning, in other terms, that they could be improved. This also means that they aren't a bad choice, or that they are bad, just that I feel there might be cards that better fit the 4th juggernaut role.

It does run crucible, which makes opponents strips/wastes not that affective anymore? so yea it's sort of a problem, but not too much.

I never talked about crucible in relation to your opponent strip/waste. I said that I am unsure about how well it handles null rod AND strip/wastes. Given that case, your problem would definately be the null rod, not the opposing strip/wastes.

Windfall, do you know what it does? how is it good only when you have an opponent locked down, usually if your opponent is locked you don't want them drawing more cards

Thats right. You don't want your opponent to draw cards when theyre locked down. But thats what the deck seems to try to accomplish in part.

Why does noone question timetwister in 7/10 builds when it goes against it's synergy, the reason I have windfall over twister is because it dumps artifacts into the yard and draws you cards

Well that is up for debate. I have no opinion on this. All I have said was that your deck seems to try and accomplish a soft-lock. Windfall is best used when your opponent is locked, because that means you will draw off more cards ... but the problem is that when that is the case generally you don't need to have more control of the game, because you already have it. I said it seems like a win-more card, because it is best used when you are in control of the game. If you usually use it when you're in a loosing situation, and it proves to be good, then yes, leave it there.

Windfall is a powerfull card, no question about that. But it is not clear under which circumstance you generally use it. Remember: you're the one posting the decklist, the burden of proof is on your side.

On another note, I would really like to know how well has your colossus served you They seems rather hard to play barring a tinker.

-marton

[TrixR4Kidz]

I have never compared this deck to 7/10. I have never said that 7/10 was better or worse.

Oh ok, my bad, I thought you were implying that.

I never talked about crucible in relation to your opponent strip/waste. I said that I am unsure about how well it handles null rod AND strip/wastes. Given that case, your problem would definately be the null rod, not the opposing strip/wastes.

I know you never talked about crucible but if it's out my opponents wastelands are rather pointless, and I don't know many decks that can handle getting constantly stripped and getting null ROD! ouchhhhhhhhh


Colosuss has been pretty good actually, a couple of late games in top deck mode i've slopped him down for the win, also early tinker against aggro is GAME OVER my friend, he's just so cool, yea it's timmy, but I love him!

[Klep]

In what matchups is the Masticore better than a third Sundering Titan?

Fish....you can still die to a stupid ass pinger with titan out, masticore owns them and also stupid 1/1 flyers can fly over you while your titan is getting chumped.

So you're going to be dying while you're swinging for 7 every turn?  Perhaps some Fish guru can correct me here, but I was under the impression that a 7/10 creature that destroyed Fish's red sources when it came into play was a rather game-ending force.

[Marton]

Haha ! Well agreed ! 11/11 trample indestructible is extremely hard to deal with. I don't know many decks that wouldn't scoop to it. The only cards that I could see against it is swords/balance (it does a *sacrifice*) or chain of vapor. In all other cases it's pretty much a scoop. However, I am wondering about it's playability when you don't draw that tinker.

[Hyperion]

Well, it *is* harder to get to 8 mana consistently against Fish, or to get Welder + TFK + Titan set up. That isn't to say I'd drop a third Titan for it either.

Personally I would run the third Titan over the Colossus, which is something you really don't want to draw.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I am wondering about it's playability when you don't draw that tinker.

Actually, I usually thirst it away back into the library almost all the time, or pitch it to razormane.

Well, it *is* harder to get to 8 mana consistently against Fish, or to get Welder + TFK + Titan set up.

Yes, thank you, that is pretty much the Idea, he's only 5 mana, and he's actually more destructable to fish then titan, yea, titan destroys the lands, but A. I already run 2 more titans so by playing a masticore, it doesn't rule out me being able to drop titan, and also, I run wastelands/crucible, so I can strip away anything with that too

Double-post deleted. Only press the 'submit' button once.[/color]

[Cross]

So you're going to be dying while you're swinging for 7 every turn? Perhaps some Fish guru can correct me here, but I was under the impression that a 7/10 creature that destroyed Fish's red sources when it came into play was a rather game-ending force.

kowal had one on me that he tinkered in when I was playing him, and I just bounced it back to his hand, check my report in open type 1. I'm not saying I'm a guru, just that I was in this situation and found a way out.

I have playtested against this deck with fish and lost to it many times. The masticore is a hoser and its almost impossible to survive.

[Plognark]

I'll admit that i've been trying to squeeze a colossus into my 7/10 this past week, since it's kind of a random "i win right now" off a tinker, but i've also found tinkering in a 7/10 is usually adequate for a win.

It's not all that hard to hard cast a colossus from this deck actually....at least the build i'm running which packs gilded lotus can spew out a load of mana pretty fast.

At the same time, colossus isn't that good against other workshop decks, since they usually (90% of the time) pack welders, who can swap him away, or duplicant, to simply remove him and change the balance of the game. 4cc also seems to pack swords as well, which is annoying, and i've seen lots of fish decks siding sigil of sleep. Bouncing a DC isn't a big deal, but they might think twice about bouncing a titan.

I havn't included DC in my deck yet, but the 'timmy' in me is calling out to find a slot for him...  

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yes darksteel coloussus brings out the timmy in all of us, right now he's just a test subject, Don't get me wrong, I will not argue him being better then anything at this point, I wanna see how he does when his fat body gets into play, from what I notice 4Cc, and other welder decks are the only decks that are really capable of getting rid of him

[BreathWeapon]

Unless your pushing the Titan aspect of the deck, your playing a horrible version of U/r Stacker. That's the reason I wont go under 4 MD Titans, even tho' it can be 1 too many at times. Not using Chalice is begging to be RAPED by Combo, and their absence greatly decreases your winning chances vs numerous decks in the metagame.

[TrixR4Kidz]

ummmm, what are you talking about, I sideboard chalices and I run mainboard trini's, so how am I getting raped by it? 4 maindeck titans? RIGHTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, that almost makes sense....wait wait no really it does.....


Ok I lied, it doesn't make sense, Don't come on here and start trash talkin the deck when you sound like you know little to nothing about magic, Please do everyone a favor and don't respond to this...

[BreathWeapon]

LOL, OMFG, grow some thicker skin. You posted the exact same deck in my 7/10 thread, and no one bothered to comment. Atleast people take the time to Flame my shit Nothing in my last post was remotely intended as a Flame, I was simply stating truisms about how the deck functions. If you want to fool around with Tubbies and only use 2 MD Titans, play U/r Stacker or TMS.

4 Titans in 7/10 have roughly the same marginal utility as 4 Psychatogs in HULK. Seeing one ASAP vs some decks is the key to winning the match up, short of random Trinisphere + Waste mana screw, thus I use 4. It is far from being nonsensical, tho' I will admit it is a player preference. I fully understand why players only use 3 MD Titans, however I am unconcerned with the occasional cluster of Titans. You, however, only use 2 Titans and a Colossus of all things. I'd argue that playing too few Titans is worse than playing too many.

MDing Chalice, and boarding Chalice is a huge difference. If you rely strictly on Trinisphere vs Draw 7, TPS and Dragon it will get FoWed and your SOL. Not MDing Chalice makes Mulliganing for a Combo stopper more costly, and you are by no meens guaranteed to find a Trinisphere + Shop (etc) in a 6-5 card hand. By only using Trinisphere, you are almost 100% reliant on going 1st to impede Combo in any way. Your effectively twice as vulnerable to Duress, because you have half as many threats vs Combo. Also, Chalice for 1 is your BEST friend vs Keeper and Chalice for 2 wrecks Fish.

Take the time to Proxie D7/TPS/Dragon/Belcher and play against them exclusively. Open up 2 applications of Apprentice if you have to, and you'll see what I meen after you've hit the 100 games + mark (Which should happen fast enough, considering the games are decided so quickly).

Ofcourse I don't know anything about Magic, obviously, so please ignore me.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I have tested against various combo decks such as draw 7, I'm not overally concerned about those kind of combo decks, first off, there aren't that many combo decks in my meta, and everytime I travel to a tourny I never end up playing any combo, second off, how is trini vs. combo rely on me going first, but chalice doesn't, if your going to die turn 1 without going first, I don't think even chalice is going to save you...

OK, I did get a little to overboard harsh, but you did come on and say i'm randomly playing a bad version of stacker.  I've playtested this deck SO much to tell you it does infact win, even if it may struggle with combo slightly, it all depends on what you draw.  I'm not missing the chalices in main too much.  4cC always has a way to get around it, and chalices are pointless if they get a shaman out first.  I agree chalice does wreck fish, but you also have to realize I made this deck primarily taking a shot at fish, This deck as it is owns fish, it has alot of fish slayers in it's main (crucible/wastelock, trinisphere, ALL the fatties).

Yea, i'm probably going to take darksteel out, he was just to be funny, I haven't really found him too useful, so I'll most likely be adding another Titan, There are always ways around darksteel.  But I know i'm gonna draw tinker in a big tourny and i'm gonna be like "damn I wish I had his huge body" but than again 7/10 is big enough.

[BreathWeapon]

Not every Combo deck is going to win 1st Turn. If you look at TPS/Death Long, which I think will hybridize, their going off in the 2-4 range. Dragon will go off in 3-5. Chalicing them will set their critical turn back by atleast 1-2 turns +. Trinisphere is awful vs Dragon on the Draw, while Chalice 2 is a strong play regardless of who's on the play. Trinisphere is also easily alleviated by Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall, while Chalice is only affected by Hurkyl's (assuming Chalice=1).

If your winning more power to you, Crucible is a beating in the absence of Combo. However, if your going to Gencon I'd definately be MDing Chalice.

[austinnadz]

I like the idea of taking out the chalices. I can't tell you how many times I've drawn a late game chalice with bfd and been like, w00t, a dead card, or been playing another workshop deck and saying to myself, I wish I had an earlier fatty like juggernaut.

it's a very good idea adding in the 'nauts, but I think you agree when I say you might as well take out the colossus, it really is just useful with tinker. however, I don't see that getting enough mana to actually hardcast it is that difficult. on the mana, I don't really see how you won't have an artifact in play, so maybe you should cut the other shivan reef for another glimmervoid? it certainly seems like you'll always have an artifact in play to be able to utilize it, and it isn't pain land. though I think that the difference between a single glimmervoid and a ahivan reef is pretty much trivial.

looks like fun and I'm sure I'll play it sometime. keep working at it and I think keying toward your meta you'll do very well with it.

austin

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yea Chalices are very pro vs. Combo, and I definately agree they hate out fish, but like I said I don't need that much more fish hate in the mainboard slots.  I have found the deck running alot better now without chalices in the mainslot.  Like austin says, you draw them late game and they are just a dead card.... yes, it can be said the same for trini's, but they did not replace the chalice spots in my deck.