[Deck Discussion] Italian 3c Madness

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ok...so we've all seen it, and we've all thought about. Why is 3c Control madness doing so well? It looks like a pile, but it has been putting up consistent numbers in huge tournaments (In europe, atleast). Can this be the "sleeper" deck at gencon? Let's look at the list:

(Creatures - 17)
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Roar of the Wurm
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Wonder
(Utilities - 9)
3 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Intuition
1 Regrowth
(Counters – 8)
4 Force of Will
4 Circular Logic
(Mana – 26)
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills

It looks like a hybrid of "Virtual Insanity" and UG madness with squees thrown in. I would really like to try and refine this decklist, as it has a strong base. It's aggro-control, only with non-gay creatures. It can power out bigger creatures, and with the help of wonder, it can give fish fits (not to mention angels and togs). The Circular logics seem iffy, but I can see it work MUCH better in this deck than, say, UG (Bazaars are an outlet AND make's logic's drawback insignificant). I also question Regrowth, but getting back a wasted bazaar is nice. I do, however, have a problem with the manabase. It's really 22 mana sources (as bazaar isn't a mana source), 4 of which produce colorless mana (3 wastes + Strip). It seems really unstable in a metagame saturated with 4cc and fish. I am almost tempted to use Riftstone portals in this deck, as it would help immensely vs. multiple wastes (tapping bazzar for G is tech). Anyways, thoughts on the deck? I'd especially like to hear from the europeans on this one.

-Bob

[Necropotenza]

In my opinion, the only thing that would make me play this deck rather than UG-Madness is the Sideboard and you haven't put one.
Rebs, R&R and Pyrostatic pillar give you very good Sb options.

For reference, this is the SB of the deck that placed 3rd in Gencon Barcelona:

3 Chalice of the void
2 Naturalize
3 Tormod's crypt
2 Reb
3 Pyrostatic pillar
2 R&R

[I Against I]

Hi, I tested/played this deck in a couple of small tournaments a while back.  I think it is a good deck, but it does have a glaring weakness- Workshop Aggro decks, particularly those that run Sundering Titan.  Their creatures are bigger than yours, and they come out before you can get the Bazaar engine going.  If you don't run the 2 Cunning Wishes that some of the Italian versions run, the Workshop Aggro matchups (Tubbies, 7/10) seem almost hopeless in game one.  Recurring Duplicants or a lone Platinum Angel can be a nightmare if they manage to reach play.  Even post-board, with around 4 Artifact Removal spells, it's still a difficult matchup.  One other thing, the Fish matchup can be very hard!  You don't run that much acceleration and the deck is fairly mana-intensive.  Unless you resolve an early Mongrel, they can out-tempo you, and after one of your lands gets Stripped it can be tough to recover.

I don't want to sound down on the deck though, since I think its versatility and uncounterable draw make it good.  The Pyrostatic Pillars are really strong, I even tried maindecking them for extra game against control.  Also, I like the exclusion of Arrogant Wurm.  You lose some of the surprise factor and the ability to cast EOT threats, but being able to Bazaar the Roars away at any time is probably better than having to hold back 2G for the Arrogant Wurm.

[Cross]

I have played against this in tournament and I have found that fish smokes this deck. The reason for that I think is mainly because of null rod. Adding bazaars screws the mana-base up a bit and to compensate for this they put in the artifact mana. Basically in all the games I played versus this deck once I played null rod they didn't do much of anything after that. Bazaars are easily stripped away, and once fish gets a stanstill lock going its impossible for them to get anything on the board.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I have played against this in tournament and I have found that fish smokes this deck. The reason for that I think is mainly because of null rod. Adding bazaars screws the mana-base up a bit and to compensate for this they put in the artifact mana. Basically in all the games I played versus this deck once I played null rod they didn't do much of anything after that. Bazaars are easily stripped away, and once fish gets a stanstill lock going its impossible for them to get anything on the board.

Have you even played this matchup??? I won the VAST majority of times when I played this deck vs. fish. If they strip my colored lands, I go broken with bazaar. If they leave my colored sources alone I cast Mongrel and win. Period. I don't understand where you think fish beats this deck. Null rod shuts down a whoopin' 5 artifacts. Whoop-di-doo. Last time I checked, fish took it's time to win. Seeing as how the draw engines are the same, I have BETTER counters (not to mention, more counters), and BIGGER creatures (did I mention they fly thanks to wonder?), I win this matchup. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've played against many fish players and simply walked all over them.

I think your assessment of this matchup is way off. If you don't play like a jackass and keep good mana hands, fish should be a favorable matchup.

[Moxlotus]

I have played against this in tournament and I have found that fish smokes this deck. The reason for that I think is mainly because of null rod. Adding bazaars screws the mana-base up a bit and to compensate for this they put in the artifact mana. Basically in all the games I played versus this deck once I played null rod they didn't do much of anything after that. Bazaars are easily stripped away, and once fish gets a stanstill lock going its impossible for them to get anything on the board.

Have you even played this matchup??? I won the VAST majority of times when I played this deck vs. fish. If they strip my colored lands, I go broken with bazaar. If they leave my colored sources alone I cast Mongrel and win. Period. I don't understand where you think fish beats this deck. Null rod shuts down a whoopin' 5 artifacts. Whoop-di-doo. Last time I checked, fish took it's time to win. Seeing as how the draw engines are the same, I have BETTER counters (not to mention, more counters), and BIGGER creatures (did I mention they fly thanks to wonder?), I win this matchup. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've played against many fish players and simply walked all over them.

I think your assessment of this matchup is way off. If you don't play like a jackass and keep good mana hands, fish should be a favorable matchup.

Definitely.  Besides TNT this is one of Fish's worst matchups.  Everything you have for disruption isn't that efficient.  Every creature they have is bigger than yours.  Everything gay/r can do Madness can do better in the matchup.  The only thing fish has going is, uh, not much.

[Matt]

It;'s evern better than TNT for beating up on Fish because it dodges SB artifact hate.

[ill_Dawg]

If I were you, I'd cut the regrowth for a riftstone portal.  If you were me, you'd also cut the basics for a second portal and either waste #4 or intuition #2; but that's just because I always play with shitty manabases.  Seriously, though, the portal is awesome, and don't forget it lets you get colored mana from the wastes as well as the bazaars.  

Also, I'd want to throw artifactmutations in the board.  they shore up the weaaaakness versus shops by blowing their stuff up and letting you hit them over the head with it.  I'd play them over the chalices n the SB above, but that's just because I play combo a lot and so personally fear and distrust the card.

-=ADAM=-

[Diaonic]

I was actually going to start a discussion about u/g/r madness; instead I will post my list and some discussion about it. This isn't the standard Italian 3c version, sorry if this knocks the thread off track. Just trying to provide some positive disscusion.
Myself and with the inspiration of Kowal, we crafted up this list. I recently played it at Cape Cod going 3-2. Let me give abit of card-by-card analysis. As you can see this is not your standard build.

I lost to TPS and GAT.
The wins were against GAT, Control slaver with ironworks, ravager affinity.


4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
3x Roar of the wurm
3x Fiery Temper
2x Anger
2x Deep Analysis
1x Wonder

5x mox
1x lotus
1x sol ring
1x Wheel of fortune
1x Timetwister
1x Windfall
1x Tinker
1x Time Walk
1x Mox Diamond
1x LED
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Crop Rotation
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
1x Memory jar
1x Ancestral Recall

4x Bazaar of Baghdad
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
2x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
2x Riftstone Portal
1x Stripmine


Draw Sevens – I know a lot of discussion about these have been geared to “The Gamble� but with my experiences when these resolve I win. I think these were thrown out early by a majority of people because they were being played wrong. When I say Gamble I am referring to giving your opponent seven new cards and being able to deal.

Tinker – I love seeing this card, when you can tinker out bad artifacts and bring in an 11/11 with the possibility of being hasted with flying. Or putting down another draw seven ability (memory jar). This card wins the prize.

Darksteel Colossus – Amazing synergy with bazaar, and a great tinker target as mentioned above. I have seen this guy come out as early as turn 1,2 and 3. There are a lot of decks that can’t deal with that kind of fat very early on.

Memory Jar – A draw seven that I can use whenever. This is really only in here for an alternative tinker target. It has been mediocre up until now. I’m open to suggestions on a replacement.

The mana base was pretty sketchy until I put the riftstone portals in. When bazaars can tap for green, it helps a lot.

Overall this deck performs very well, with the large quantity of artifact acceleration it really provides quick starts. The one downfall to this deck is the lack of disruption and having to “Race� your opponent for the game. It has serious problems with combo.

Idea’s and suggestions are always welcome.

-Diaonic-

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

While I appreciate you posting your decklist....your deck plays a different game then the italian 3c Madness. Your deck is more focused for the quick kill, while italian madness is aggro-control and packs disruption in the form of Force of wills, logics, and wastelands. My decklist has changed a bit, as I took Ill dawgs advice of fitting in more intuions. Simply put, they are AMAZING in this deck. First one gets squees. Second one gets squee#4 and 2 deeps. What more can you ask? Oh that's right, when you're playing vs. shitty aggro, intuitioning for 3 roars in pretty "awesome sauce."

[ill_Dawg]

Don't forget the anger/wonder/anal thing, depending on what you're playing against.  Intuition looked like it would rock the house in this build, since you only run 1x of each of the incarnations and you are running squee.  The reason I never ran it in the aggro version is that I had 3x anger and 2x wonder with no squees.  Even then, I considereed it for a while.

-=ADAM=-

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Adam, any way you could PM me your decklist? Seeing as how you developed the deck (along with Kowal) and sparked my interest in it (also mad props to hyperion), I'd love to see what your take on it is. I'm kinda stuck on middle grounds with this deck. You could go ultra - aggro like Bombs ove Baghdad or Virtual insanity, or you could go aggro-control, like UG madness. Italian madness is kinda in between, but I don't know if that's a good thing.

As far as riftstone portal, i don't know about that card. old madness had man more outlets than this deck.

[Diaonic]

Adam, any way you could PM me your decklist? Seeing as how you developed the deck (along with Kowal) and sparked my interest in it (also mad props to hyperion), I'd love to see what your take on it is. I'm kinda stuck on middle grounds with this deck. You could go ultra - aggro like Bombs ove Baghdad or Virtual insanity, or you could go aggro-control, like UG madness. Italian madness is kinda in between, but I don't know if that's a good thing.

As far as riftstone portal, i don't know about that card. old madness had man more outlets than this deck.

If you are looking for a very fast aggro build, I would suggest trying my build. It is very quick. If you have any questions about it feel free to pm me.