Open Source: Meandeck's Death Long

[Smmenen]

That strategy doesn't always work.  Sometimes Duress is stronger than Xantid - especially against Fish where you

a) get to see their hand - which deflates their threateningness
b) guarnateed to be able to take Null Rod.  They don't play Rod until turn two so even on the draw you can nab it.
c) take the best counterspell and learn to play around their hand best.  

Xantid on the other hand doesn't tell you if they have Wasteland, stifle, or what they might do.

Duress is extremely strong at the moment, and I wouldn't cut it for Xantid unless I was absolutely certain that that was the thing to do.

With Long.dec, I would SB a combination of Xantids and Duress.  Like 4 Xantids and 3 Duress.  But that may be too much.  Drawing multiple Xantids is terrible, but drawing mutliple Duresess is not.

[Ultima]

I understand this against fish.  I was only really referring to 4CC.  Fish is definitely a different story.  

Your right about Duress vs. Swarms but I think that's depending on the match-up.  In all fairness though, duresses can be very bad in multiples also.

I think that most of the SB should be devoted or relavantly dedicated towards stopping 3spheres as that's what i continually aee as Long's and any tendrils deck main problem.

[nietzreznor]

I have been playing with the Colossus plan for some time now (generally, I have had the Colossus in the board to side in against Fish, as well as a few other decks).
    The Colossus is obviously bad against 4CC, but the 4CC matchup is not nearly as hard as the Fish matchup, and Fish cannot deal with a turn 1-2 Colossus.

   I still am unsure about how to SB with this deck, as up to this point I have been doing mostly pre-SB testing.  I definitely would NOT remove Duress against Fish, it is really strong there.  Perhaps -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Mox Diamond, -1 ???? (against 4CC, the Colossus if it is maindecked)  

    It seems to me that swarm would definitely come in against 4CC, Tog, and Control Slaver (decks with 4 FoW, 4 Drain).  I am not sure that it would be as useful against Fish, though, since a) it doesn't stop Null Rod, and b) they have lots of ways of dealing with it (lavamancer, blocking with Spiketails/Clouds).

    The card I have been testing lately has been Intuition.  For testing purposes, I added 3 to the maindeck, removing 1 D Wish (going down to 4 total), Mystical Tutor, and Tinker (SBing it, with the intention of either finding something else to cut to move it back in, or maindecking the Colossus).  At times, Intuition has been absolutely amazing.  It looks kinda bad, with the casting cost of 3, but if you have Intuition + Wish in your hand, its extremely powerful at setting up a good Will.  The nice thing about it, though, is that it is very rarely dead--even when you cannot use it in conjunction with Wish (which is ideal), it still can fetch, say, 3 Draw7s for next turn.  Plus it doesn't put the card on top of your library, like Mystical Tutor does (which is REALLY annoying).

    -nietzreznor

[theorigamist]

Smmenen, with all the stuff you've said in this thread about the importance of setting up the win, why have you not looked to Lim-Dul's Vault?  I'd say it could easily take Vampiric's place.  It's just about the most powerful setup card there is.  And it's UB.  And it's an instant.  And it's a tutor that's still unrestricted.  Lim-Dul's Vault is so underappreciated.

[goober]

Vamp costs 1, Vault costs 2.  Why do you need to stack the top 5 when the card you put on top is GG anyways?  You usually won't see the card you put below it because of the amoung of shuffle effects or by just winning.  That 1 mana extra is a lot because often this deck will just pull through to get up to 6 for the Wish->Will.  Old Long had to ramp up to 2 mana to win, this needs 6.  By adding this cost it will be a lot harder.  Also it has blue in it which is a problem.  We get tons of black mana from Dark and Cabal Ritual, but only a little blue.

[theorigamist]

I didn't mean to set up a comparison between Vamp and Vault.  The point was merely that Vault fills the function of setting up the win much better than anything else.  You say that you'll just shuffle away the bottom four cards with a tutor or draw 7, but don't forget that Wheel, Windfall, Jar, Necro, and Bargain do not shuffle first.  If you put one of those on top, you'll then draw all the other cards you put there.

I personally think it makes more sense to replace the 4th BS with a Vault, but it sounds like people are pretty adamant about having all four Brainstorms.  That's why I suggested Vamp.  The point I was making was that Vault is stupid powerful.  People should be using it more, especially with Pentad Prisms/Chromatic Spheres.

[Smmenen]

I think the Crop Rotation Spot is definately open in the deck.  I'd like to try the Vault in that spot.

The key is how to set yourself up best.  It seems to me that Brainstorm ontop with some really good shit: Wish+Duress+Lotus/Ritual is probably the way to go.

Ultima:

Duress isn't dead in multiples.  The marginal utility of an additional Xantid Swarm is almost zero.  With Duress, you get to remove the best card from their hand.

[Ultima]

I was merely pointing out that you only need to duress someone once before you go off, therefore after the first time, duress isn't nearly as useful and multiples could clog your hand when you could have more acceleration.

I will certainly concede though that multiple duresses are better than multiple swarms 90% of the time.

[TrixR4Kidz]

It is possible that they will have a drain with 2 mana open and a force in their hand, aka you don't just duress once then go off, you could duress a second time.... Duress is alot better then xantid in this deck, he's 1 turn slower which is too slow in this sort of build

[theorigamist]

Also don't forget with Rituals and less than a set of ESG, black is much easier to get than green mana.

[BreathWeapon]

Considering that both decks operate at roughly the same speed, I wonder if a TPS/Death Long hybrid is out of the question. If you look at the number of sub-optimal cards in European TPS lists, 4 Death Wish and Cabal Rituals would be an easy fit. I bet those crazy Italians could get it to work

[Sagath]

The format is wide open, by this I dont mean defined. Con is going to be different. Just because Fish and 4cc are abundant doesnt mean Con will (should?) be. People are going to try new things, simply because the format is going to allow it. I'm not saying dont expect 4cc and Fish, more I'm saying expect something different, just like this deck There is atleast 5 decks I think are atleast Tier 1.5 or above. Expect a variety.

@Smmenen: As you said the idea against these decks (in the current Meta of Fish and 4cc) is to play a threat, then another threat. Fish runs 4 Forces as its true 'hard' counters. 4cc adds 4 Mana drains. How many threats does Death Long have? 4 wishes (5?) plus draw7's. Duress Gives you 4 more threats.

They cant topdeck FoW 4 turns in a row (within reason ), whereas (statistically) you CAN get 4+ threats in a row. For this reason I dont feel Xantid is a neccisary card. Ultima and Smmenen are right, multiple Duress is better then multiple xantids. Duress is much stronger in an open faced meta that the current T1 is. Its Good against dragon, its amazing against Landstill, 4cc, Fish, Hulk/Tog etc.

@theorigamist: Vault seems to me to be...unrealistic, but if your going strictly for consistancy  and sacrificing 'going broke' then that is the best plan. In Smmenen's own words mind you, he said Type One is about Brokenness, and thats why he chose combo.

OTOH, whats wrong with ONE colossus? It kills some decks outright. I'm sure we can sacrifice one slot, just for the ability to end the match. in 2 turns. So what if its bad against 4cc, alot of other decks a resolved C-man spells out gee gee.[/b]

[Smmenen]

The collossus idea would probably work, but how often do you want Tinker with Death Wish, when you can just win with yawgmoth's Will?  I.e. How often will you play Tinker - a card that eats one of your own mana sources, when you can just play something else instead prior to playing Wish + Will?

[BreathWeapon]

There isn't any need to put Tinker into the SB, with Demonc/Vamp/Mystical -> Tinker with FoW/Duress the game will end just as easily. All SBing Tinker does is rob you of a Draw 7 in the MD, which is not advisable. If your running U/b Death Long or TPS with Death Wishes etc (I posted it in the other Tendrils thread on the 1st page) you definately can't afford the loss of Tinker after cutting Wheel of Fortune.

There is nothing wrong with MDing the Colossus, it's just damn hard to find a card to cut for it. If I had balls, I'd axe the MD Tendril for it or either Lotus Petal or Mana Vault.

I'm just going to double post the U/b Death Long or TPS/Wish since it's just as relevant for this thread.

The only decks I've bothered to playtest against are 4cc, Fish and Workshop X decks. They are the only significant tests, IMO.

Here is the list I'm currently working with,

Disruption (9)
4xForce of Will
3xDuress
1xHurkyl's Recall
1xChain of Vapor

Search (6)
4xBrainstorm
1xTime Walk
1xAncestral Recall

Tutor (3)
1xDemonic Tutor
1xVampiric Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Wish (4)
4xDeath Wish

Draw 7 (4)
1xMemory Jar
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWindfall

I Win (3)
1xMinds Desire
1xYawgmoth's Bargain
1xNecropotence

Kill (1)
1xTendrils of Agony

Mana (30)
4xCabal Ritual
4xDark Ritual
5xFetch Lands
4xUnderground Sea
2xIsland
1xSwamp
1xTolarian Academy
7xSoLoMoxen
1xLotus Petal
1xMana Crypt

Sideboard
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xDiminishing Returns
1xTendrils of Agony
1xBrain Freeze
1xHurkyl's Recall
1xChain of Vapor
1xDuress
4xPhyrexian Negator
1xDarksteel Colossus
3xOpen Slots

I'm steadily hating Mana Vault and Lotus Petal with a passion, I've cut the Vault already and I'm keeping my eye on the Petal. Having 13 lands and 3 Basics has made life a lot easier on the manabase, and Mulligans are more predictable. I'm looking for a way to put Colossus in the MD, but I can't stand to remove a U card on account of FoW (No matter how hard Walk and Mystical can blow). Duress needs to stay as a 3x to remain relevant, and Cabal Ritual is too important to the deck to drop below 4. I started with 2 Cabals, then 3 and finaly went to 4 because the deck is so thirsty for Black Mana. Plus, being able to win despite Null Rod being on the table is ridiculous. That leaves the MD Tendril, but it should probably stay in the MD for random wins ala Tutors.

IMO, the deck offers the versatility and brokenness of Death Long with the stability of TPS. I haven't missed Wheel of Fortune, Burning Wish or Xantid swarms much at all.

[Smmenen]

Why did you cut Demonic Consulation?  Lotus Petal is amazing imo.  It helps you get Threshold and has great synergy with Yawgmoth's Will.

It's interesting to see the different ways you take the deck.   I would think with your deck, that that maindeck Tendrils would be very important.

[Purple Hat]

We're totally gonna get death wish restricted. :lol:
Ok, I'm not suggesting that it happen yet, but with everyone turning to this kind of thing for Gencon with the Wizards reps there and all...the amount of brain power we are devoting to solving this problem almost makes it almost inevitiable that it's gonna be broken.

The synthesis between TPS and Death Long looks like it has interesting prospects.  My work has been in a different direction though.  Steve makes a good point about consult.  I'd much more readily cut mystical then consult.  It's just so much more versitile.

Hale

[BreathWeapon]

I love Conslutation, but I can't find anywhere to fit it in. Space is so tight right now that several strong cards (Colossus/Consultation) are being left out. I'm not sure what to do about it, other than just live with it.

The MD Tendril is staying, simply because of its synergy with the Tutors. There is simply no reason to be solely reliant on Death Wish for the Kill, and I think its dangerous to do so. The only card I ever thought about removing it for is Colossus, but then I'm trading 1 strength for another. That isn't bad "persay," but I'd rather increase the flexibility of my deck instead of tipping the balance scale towards one way or another.

Lotus Petal is awesome when the Wish Engine is in Order, but otherwise its an unstable mana accelerant. I'm loathed to cut it, but I may simply have no choice if I want to see Consultation and Colossus in the MD. Like any other card, I can remember bitching about it sucking more than praising it. Unfortunately this is always misleading, because your always ready to damn a card more than your willing to praise it.

That more or less brings me to Time Walk, because it is with out a doubt the most overrated Blue Card in Combo ever. I'm only using it to increase the FoW count to 17, which is what I'm the most comfortable with. Cutting Mystical didn't make any sense, because it would only weaken the Tinker -> Colossus game plan. Hurkyl's and Chain shouldn't budge, IMO, because of Shops.

If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. I just can't settle on anything to cut for Consultation/Colossus other than Time Walk and Lotus Petal, which are the two most conditional cards in the deck.

I'd appreciate it if you'd Apprentice the list up and give me your informed input, I'm stuck in double fisted playtesting at the moment.

[Smmenen]

I wish you'd get a chance to test the last build I posted in this thread.  It took my excursions with Draw7 for me to be able to craft such a finely tuned LongDeath.  

If you are wondering about a SB start with the following:

1 Tendrlis
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's (to Death Wish for)
1 Primtive Justice (for Burning Wish)
4 Xantid Swarm (for 4cc and Tog)

Cards I'm currently considering include:
1 Balance - for rare situations that can come up and win matches.
1 Regrowth (to wish for to Regrowth Yawgmoth's Will in case it was countered)
1 Diminishing Returns - this is actually on the verge of being cut.  I rarely use it.  

I really think the LongDeath list I posted on page three is probably the strongest Tendrils deck in the format.  It's much harder to play than Draw7, but much more rewarding as well.

[goober]

This is a build I have been tossing around for a while, and I love it.  The biggest change is 3 Helm over Chrome Mox and 2 Elvish Spirit Guide.  That card is the best way to help you go off because it adds so much mana to the deck.  Wish->Will is now 4 mana, Cabal Ritual is now Dark Ritual with threshold.  Your md win conditions (Tendrils, Desire, Bargain) are all a little easier to cast.  This is the full list.

// Lands
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 City of Brass
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Mana
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Lotus Petal
    4 Cabal Ritual
    3 Helm of Awakening

//Draw
    1 Windfall
    1 Timetwister
    1 Wheel of Fortune

    1 Tinker
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Brainstorm

//Tutors
    1 Burning Wish
    4 Death Wish
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor

//Duress
    4 Duress

//GG
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Regrowth
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Oxidize
SB: 1 Balance
SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 Hurkyl's Recall

I have considered cutting a Helm for Chrome or Diamond, but I can't decide.  Also the Petal/Diamond/Chrome debate is still up in the air in my head, but I think it is in that order.

[SpencerForHire]

Helm has definate potential physically shown in decklists and both mathamatically.  I am a budget player mostly so I woudln't be able to help much on this topic would I?  WRONG.
Helm of Awakening at the cost of 2 mana up front pays you back if you cast two spells, it adds one to your storm count and makes alot of things that shouldn't be cheap, cheap.
I ran budget tendrils when Scourge first came out and I generally killed on turn 1.75.
The only problem with this card is if your opponent capitalizes on using it and if your playing storm, they should be dead before they could anyways.

[Shadow-Walker]

As much as I like helm its not worth cutting ESG.  Helm doesnt actually provide mana and sucks against trinishere.

[BreathWeapon]

I think you guys are completely missing the point, Mana is not the problem.

My "revelations" with Death Wish.dec

Ok, playing Death Long is a categorical question. Why do you play this deck over Draw 7 and Belcher?

Things we have to recognize,

1st, Death Wish is not Diminishing Returns. Unlike Diminishing Returns, Death Wish is not an interdependant threat that will set your game plan into motion. Death Wish is almost strictly reliant on the Draw 7's being played first to enable Death Wish -> Yawgmoth's Will -> Win. Because of the conditional order of your "Bombs," you can't follow D7's "barrage of threats" game plan. However, Death Wish has its upsides. 1BB is MUCH easier to obtain than 2UU with Dark/Cabal Ritual, and the Wish is REB proof. Death Wish can search for answers such as Hurkyl's Recall or Balance. Death Wish can search for independant threats like Diminishg Returns or Phryexian Negator, and it can search for disruption via Duress or Xantid Swarms.

2nd, Knowing that Death Long's Bombs are dependant on their order, Disruption becomes significantly more important to Death Long. This has brought me to several conclusions. First, the speed and stability of the deck is significantly reduced by the need to Disrupt the opponent. Taking the time to Duress often sets you back an entire turn, and it allows the opponent's Wastelands or Gorilla Shamans to resolve. This encourages you to play the TPS Manabase and utilize Cabal Ritual over Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, LED etc. Second, Force of Will is hard pressed to protect the resolution of a Draw 7. Considering that FoW is U, Twister/Windfall/Tinker are U and FoW requires a U card to pitch, the deck simply can't expect to resolve threats with FoW back up consistantly vs Control. Unfortunately, FoW is a necessary evil if you want to defeat Workshop more than 50% of the time and reduce the importance of the Coin Flip.

3rd, The potential speed of this deck is inconsequential, the threat of that speed is what is important. Once your opponent sees your playing Death Long and realizes your playing a deck that has a Gold Fish average of roughly 15-20% Turn 1 Win, his Mulligans will be greatly affected. The opponent will go hunting for Force of Will or Trinisphere, and you must know what hands to look for accordingly. This makes your SBing and Mulligan decisions insanely difficult. You must have a Draw 7/Necropotence for the 1st/2nd Turn Win, or a Tutor for a Draw 7/Necropotence and a Duress, Hurkyl/Chain or Death Wish if your on the move vs Prison to deal with Chalive=1 or a Trinisphere. If the opponent is on the move, than your obligated to Mulligan into FoW and pray you can Top Deck your way to victory.

Drawing some conclusions,

From what I've seen, this deck is being pulled in too many directions to be Tier 1. It needs FoW to combat Shops, but FoW is not sufficient vs Control. The deck needs every Draw 7 it can muster, requiring a 5 Color Manabase. Those Draw 7's must be protected vs Control, requiring Duress to be played which forces you to expose your Manabase to Wastelands and Gorilla Shamans. The deck needs to resolve Draw 7s before Wishes, which requires more Artifact Acceleration. More Artifact Acceleration reduces the # of Cabal Rituals and Lands, exposing you to Null Rod. Everything about this deck seems to be back and forth from one strength to another.

When I compare Death Long to Belcher, I see a deck that sacrifices speed and consistancey for its Disruption. The Order of resolving a Goblin Welder is irrelevant, while Duress and FoW are not. Belcher accepts the 50/50 match up vs Prison, sacrifices 0 speed to disrupt FoW/Drain with Welder and does not have interdependant threats. Both decks seem to be equally pestered by Null Rods, but Trinisphere and Chalice are definately less impressive vs Belcher when its on the play.

When I compare Death Long to D7, I see a deck that has conditional combo pieces and an inferior FoW count with more Mulligan issues and superior Top Decking prospects. While D7 doesn't have the versatility of Death Wish to pull it out of the fire, the deck's redundancy makes it much more consistant and less prone to player error.

Simply put, the deck has become a burden to Design, Test and Play. It seems to be lacking clear objectives. I still look at the deck as a labor of love, but I've hit a wall with it. The greater majority of my games are being won with Necrpotence or Tinker->Colossus. I just can't see myself sitting down at Gencon with Death Long, because the games are so long and drawn out for a Combo Deck. I think if the deck wants to progress, it has to merge with TPS on some level. The problem with that is, your effectively playing Control-Combo and not actual Combo.

[Smmenen]

Do you realize that your post will force me to write an article making the case for this deck?  Your critique is nuanced and laden with experience, and making the full case will almost require a card by card explanation in the form of a primer.  

I won't be playing it at Gencon.  Not becuase I do'nt think its good enough.  Even with all of my combo experience, I am not prepared to take a deck of this difficulty to a tournament of that level.  I do plan, however, on making this deck my long-term deck that I will grow to master over the next year.   If you can't play this deck in your sleep with a Trinisphere or a Null Rod in play, then you aren't prepared to play ths.  This deck is the kind of deck where you make one play error and then you are out of the tournament becuase of the psychology of having made errors.  

Without going into too much detail:

The primary strength of the deck is that you can moduate your speed.  We all know that speed alone isn't what wins games.  The reason I never actually strong claims about the speed of Long.dec was becuase I felt that winning on turn two was stronger than trying to win on turn one.  IMO, the nature of LED and the drawback of the card are such that it is my informed opinon that against decks with FOW (a good chunk of hte field) this deck loses a marginal amount of speed.  It is less grotesque, but Long frequently won on turn 2-3 against FOW decks, and rarely on turn 1.  

I think you are wrong when you say that you need to have cast a  draw7
in order for Will to be good.  I think a Tutor, a Brainstorm, a land, and a Duress is frequently enough in fact.  If you got a draw7 countered, better for it.  Will is such a powerful card that even if you don't win the turn you used it, you are so far ahead that you will win shortly thereafter.  

I think that my list is focused on winning but in a way that requires less mulligans, has less mana issues, and is less conditional than the other lists I've seen while retaiing speed.  The two ESG is symbolic of this.  The ESGs are basially there to power out early Draw7s, little else.  Having more than one is not good.

If you view the deck as a turn two deck instead of forcing it to win as quickly as possible, you'll be as comfortable with it as I am.  I only force it when I play against Stax.  

Duress solves the Null Rod problem becuase even on the Draw, Fish can't play Rod on turn one without Sapphire.  I think a MD Hurkyl's or two is sufficient to deal with other threats.  Trinisphere is not that bad becuase Workshop decks can't mull into it.  Even if they do, they will simply be going: Trinisphere, Go and nothing for turns thereafter.  It doesn't take much to get three mana to cast Death Wish, untap one more time and win.  

Take Draw7.  Draw7 resolves one of its threats eventually.  It may not be on turn one, and is likely on turn three.  By castig a draw7, you through y
our chances to the wind.  You refill your opponents hand - who also now has mana up.  Instead of that last spell being another Draw7, it is much better off as Death Wish - > Will.  Instead of Risk, you win.  The flaw in Draw7 is that you give your opponent a new hand, at the same time that mana issues, card issues, and other issues make it so the  deck  will "seem" unlucky to you when actually there is so much risk that you coudln't but get screwed.  

I build Draw7 as a foil to Death long - to take combo in a logical extreme.  I learned over the long term that that extreme wins less, even if it does goldfish faster.  

Stephen Menendian

[goober]

Helm doesnt actually provide mana and sucks against trinishere.

This deck played Wish->Will->Tendrils almost ever game, therefore it effectivly nets one mana.  Also if you fail to go off it makes going off again far easier.  ESG nets 1 mana, this nets at least 1, and lets you use it every turn.  If you untap it effectively nets 3 mana at the minimum.

BTW this deck sucks against Trinisphere.  You just wait till you Wish->Hurkyl's or Oxidize or Rack and Ruin

[BreathWeapon]

@Steve, I fully agree that this deck shouldn't be played at Break Neck Speed. However, in order to make Death Wish -> Will good with out resolving a Draw 7 first, it takes time. In that interval Keeper will have the opportunity to either Waste, resolve Shaman or bring Mana Drain on line. That's exactly why I keep thinking about the homogenization between Death Long and TPS, twice as much Disruption and Basic Lands provide time for your GY to accumulate "the goods" independant of the Draw 7's.

I also agree that playing this deck is an exercise in psychological masichism, I know I couldn't play this deck well in a 45-60 minute round. It takes so much energy trying to determine what is and what isn't a good hand vs ???. What makes matters worse is, that sense of Good/Bad is extremely difficult to convey to playtest partners. I find learning to play Death Long is equivalent to learning to play C-h-e-s-s Blind Folded. You take every hand and play it out, no matter how awful it appears. You annotate every decision you make, and after you fail to win you double back to the last branch and play it out. I find myself repeating this process again and again, until I've fully justified that the hand sucks. Then I go to 6 cards and repeat the process, while my opponent draws 7 fresh cards.

Simply playing individual games, like you would with most decks, doesn't teach you how to actually play the deck. The key decisions come from the card interactions on the 1st-3rd turns. You have to understand how those cards interact before you can remotely grasp how the Deck "should" Mulligan. Gold Fishing is of little value, because the speed that you can achieve the combo at is nigh irrelevant. Ultimately, I think a lot of these concerns speak to the power of Duress>FoW. Knowing what is in your opponent's hand is vital to executing the deck properly.

I can't imagine a more difficult deck to play, and any one who takes Death Long to a 7+ Round Tournament and can Top 8 is one hell of a player.

Also, I've very rarely come back from a 1st Turn Mulligan to 4-5 Trinisphere from Workshop Aggro. If you meant working out of Trinisphere when your on the play, I agree. However, I still think Shop + Mox -> Trinisphere 2nd Turn Juggie is some scary shit to play out of even if your on the play.

[Purple Hat]

If you can't play this deck in your sleep with a Trinisphere or a Null Rod in play, then you aren't prepared to play ths.

Yeah...something like that.  

I also don't think the need a draw7 in the yard to use will makes any sense.  This deck has the same ideals as Long.dec.  It wants a hand like this:
land, mana, mana, duress, ritual, tutor, death wish.

That hand has nothing to do with draw sevens.  It goes off on turn one, through Force of Will.  Yes, if your opponent is playing first and drops a 3sphere and a mox you're in troubble.  Can you name a deck that isn't if it can't find a Force?  3sphere is just that good.  If your opponent can make it asymetrical, ie drop his moxen first, and it resolves you're probably going to have to fight an up hill battle.  That's kinda a fact of life in this format right now.  It also sucks if they drop a 3 sphere and then crucible and wasteland the next turn.  Wow, Stax is SO good right now...

This deck is almost certainly the hardest deck in the format to play correctly.  But in my opinion, when played correctly it's probably the best combo deck out there.  I won't be playing it at worlds either, I feel exactly the way Steve does about the deck.  I'm just not good enough with it yet.  Maybe at Waterbury in January if it's still good then.  :lol:

Hale

[Smmenen]

@Steve, I fully agree that this deck shouldn't be played at Break Neck Speed. However, in order to make Death Wish -> Will good with out resolving a Draw 7 first, it takes time. In that interval 4cControl will have the opportunity to either Waste, resolve Shaman or bring Mana Drain on line. That's exactly why I keep thinking about the homogenization between Death Long and TPS, twice as much Disruption and Basic Lands provide time for your GY to accumulate "the goods" independant of the Draw 7's.

I also agree that playing this deck is an exercise in psychological masichism, I know I couldn't play this deck well in a 45-60 minute round. It takes so much energy trying to determine what is and what isn't a good hand vs ???. What makes matters worse is, that sense of Good/Bad is extremely difficult to convey to playtest partners. I find learning to play Death Long is equivalent to learning to play C-h-e-s-s Blind Folded. You take every hand and play it out, no matter how awful it appears. You annotate every decision you make, and after you fail to win you double back to the last branch and play it out. I find myself repeating this process again and again, until I've fully justified that the hand sucks. Then I go to 6 cards and repeat the process, while my opponent draws 7 fresh cards.

Simply playing individual games, like you would with most decks, doesn't teach you how to actually play the deck. The key decisions come from the card interactions on the 1st-3rd turns. You have to understand how those cards interact before you can remotely grasp how the Deck "should" Mulligan. Gold Fishing is of little value, because the speed that you can achieve the combo at is nigh irrelevant. Ultimately, I think a lot of these concerns speak to the power of Duress>FoW. Knowing what is in your opponent's hand is vital to executing the deck properly.

I can't imagine a more difficult deck to play, and any one who takes Death Long to a 7+ Round Tournament and can Top 8 is one hell of a player.

Also, I've very rarely come back from a 1st Turn Mulligan to 4-5 Trinisphere from Workshop Aggro. If you meant working out of Trinisphere when your on the play, I agree. However, I still think Shop + Mox -> Trinisphere 2nd Turn Juggie is some scary shit to play out of even if your on the play.

I think you are underestimating the strength of the deck just a bit.  It sounds like this post qualifies or at least goes against someo of what you said earlier.    The Duress will reveal if most of those threats are to be accounted for, and how to best play around them.  I hope you'll try my most recent list (and you can PM me for a good SB), and then see what you think.

[Shirow66]

I'm sorry for the short post, but I just wanted confirmation that the 60th card in Steve's list on page 3 should be a Lotus Petal?

[Smmenen]

That's correct.

Stephen