[Deck Discussion] Tool's n' Tubbies

[cssamerican]

I posting this in the Newbie forum simply because I am not sure if there is enough content and focus for it to be in the Open Type 1 forum. If a moderator disagrees with that assessment feel free to move it where you think it needs to be. Like you guys need my permision

With Gay/R and control in general becoming the dominant decks, I was wondering what people thought of TnT chances of making a comeback. I pulled this build from an old decklist that I had and integrated some of the newer Tool’s n’ Tubbies that are available from recent sets and came up with this.

TnT (Tool's n' Tubbies)

Creatures  (17)
4x Goblin Welder
4x Juggernaut
2x Triskelion
1x Razormane Masticore
1x Platinum Angel
1x Duplicant
1x Karn, Silver Golem
1x Sundering Titan
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger

Sorceries (1)
1x Demonic Tutor

Enchantments  (7)
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Chains of Mephistopheles    

Artifacts (15)
4x Trinisphere
3x Crucible of Worlds
1x Black Lotus    
1x Mana Crypt    
1x Mox Emerald    
1x Mox Jet    
1x Mox Pearl    
1x Mox Ruby    
1x Mox Sapphire    
1x Mana Vault

Lands  (20)
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothill
4x Taiga
2x Bayou    
1x Forest    
1x Strip Mine

Sideboard (15)
3x Chalice of the Void  
2x Naturalize
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Elf Replica
1x Goblin Sharpshooter    
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Fastbond
1x Chains of Mephistopheles

Disruption: I chose to include Trinisphere and an aggressive mana base assault arsenal as my primary form of disruption. Crucible of Worlds was unbelievable in this deck during testing not only because of the Trini/CoW/Strip lock, which is very nice, but also due to how stable it makes the deck’s mana base. Chains of Mephistopheles was chosen as a secondary form of disruption because of its debility effect on control and storm based combo without having any negative effect to this deck.

The Engine: I chose Survival of the Fittest over the newer engines like Thirst for Knowledge because it makes the deck more consistent, allows the deck to run disruption like Chains of Mephistopheles, and enables the deck to retrieve the tools it needs when it needs them. The idea was not to make the most explosive artifact based aggro deck, I think 7-10 Split already has this in the bag, but rather to make the most consistent artifact based aggro deck. Also I am sure someone will notice that there is no Memory Jar, that is because it doesn’t work worth a damn with Trinispheres.

The Creatures: Of course these could be fined tuned to fit your metagame, but in general I think this is a good starting point. Duplicant is there for removal of large creatures such as Exalted Angel, Sundering Titan, and Worldgorger Dragon. Platinum Angel is there as additional defense against Dragon. Juggernaut, Razormane Masticore, and Triskelion are the main beats of the deck, and they are all fairly easy to cast, and in the case of Razormane Masticore and Triskelion double as removal. Razormane Masticore has been one of my favorite cards in the deck. Its ability to ping under Null Rod is sweet, and being a 5/5 first striker is a lot better than you would think. His drawback can at times be very advantageous since he is an additional outlet to discard an artifact for you to weld in. And of course Sundering Titan can aid in the land destruction department as well it being a pretty good fatty to boot; I just don’t like running multiples because he is very difficult to hard cast.

In testing the deck works much better than I originally expected, and is much stronger versus combo decks than the older version were. And as you would expect it absolutely crushes Gay/R and gives 4cControl a serious run for its money. I must admit it, it really was a joy to play a deck again that drops turn 1 Juggies, and even more enjoyable to play a deck that can survival them up turn after turn. It made me wonder why TnT ever went out of style.

Questions, Comments?

Edited: -06/24/04- I removed one Razormane Masticore from the main deck and replaced it with one Demonic Tutor. It gives the deck some additional flexibility and consistency while taking very little from the deck in terms of explosiveness. I then removed one Chalice of the Void from the sideboard and added one Fastbond. This allows the deck to be able to break the symmetry in land destruction battles when your opponent also has a Crucible of the Worlds in play.

[leviat]

I think you need to try to fit in a [card]Quirion Ranger[/card]. Her ability to protect lands as well as untap men can be extremely useful. Often when she hits play with a Welder out, you can speed up your kill by a turn.

[cssamerican]

In my older TnT list, I did use the Ranger; however, because of the inclusion of Crucible of Worlds his uses have diminished. No longer is he the best way to protect you lands from land destruction, and I am not sure he is worth a slot just to untap a creature every now and then. I am under the belief right now that if you integrate Crucible of Worlds into TnT then the Ranger has got to be one of the cards you look at cutting to include it. This is because in many cases, Crucible does the same job as the Ranger, but it does that job better.

[Hanzalot]

I think your list looks very good. I'm sure you have seen "The Man Show" and your deck is pretty similar but with the addition of the SotF engine, which I at first glance think is a good addition. Henceforth a few things:

Have you tested "The Man Show"? And if yes, have you found the SotF engine to be better than the cards it replaces (i.e. primarily the burning wish and the Colossus combo)?

Have you found the need for 2-3 Su-Chi to make the chance of a 1st turn threat higher?

Again a very promising list which I'm going to test as soon as I get the chance.

--Hans

[cssamerican]

I haven't tested "The Man Show", but I have seen the list. It looks very good; however, I have always been fond of SotF when it came to artifact decks with fat. There is something in me that enjoys having access to hasted welders and toolbox fatties, as well as, a constant source of threats in the face of creature removal. That is why I have always played TnT over other Aggro Workshop decks such as Stacker in the past, and why I now choose to play TnT over decks like "The Man Show".

Trinisphere replaced su-Chi in my mind. While it is not a threat to their life total it is a huge threat to their board position. And since I have made that switch I have never wished I had Su-Chi back in the deck.

[Purple Hat]

damn it, I was gonna work on a TnT splashing black for chains list next week. :lol:

list looks good, I'll have to test it of course, but it looks like it's exactly what I was thinking of doing.  I think you might be able to get by with only 4 strip effects and play one more basic forrest making blood moon an even better board option for you.  Then again since blood moon would come in against control...maybe not.

Hale

[Thug]

Sol Ring?

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Ok that's too little text, even for the newbie forum.
Would Memory Jar still be an option, or maybe a single Mind's Eye (note how it's perfect to dodge the Chains)
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I like your list, I really have that little to add.
The only thing I wonder about if chains is really that good, cause it does force you to make the manabase a lot more shaky, and it makes Blood Moon a lot harder to run. The decks that get hit by chains het hit by moon too, so I think G/R would still be an option too. This also allows the use of Solemn, which are pretty good right now.

Koen

[cssamerican]

Sol Ring was card 61; the only reason it is not in this deck is because I wanted the deck to be 60 cards. Moxen, even off-color moxen allow you to play a turn one Sotf or CoM, since it doesn't use up your color mana, and Mana Vault and Mana Crypt allow you to play a turn one Trinisphere off a land. Sol Ring just happened to be the worst accelerator, and I didn't want to cut any threats or disruption to fit it in.

Memory Jar and Mind's Eye really are not needed. It is hard to explain it, but with built in engines like CoW/Fetchland and SotF/Squee, and with disruption like Trinisphere, CoW/StripLand, and CoM control has a very difficult time keeping up. Plus, what would you remove to add them?

The decks that get hit by chains get hit by moon too

CoM hits anything that draws cards, which is pretty much every thing but FCG. CoM is easier to resolve turn one against decks because of its lower casting cost. CoM is usually harder to play around for control and combo than Blood Moon. For example, game two Gay/R or 4cControl will break the first fetchland for an Island, and they are going to side in BeB because it hits your welders and Blood Moon. If CoM hits they probably won't be able to remove it because they will be unable to draw cards or even use Brainstorm to find answers to deal with CoM or your threats.

Oh, the mana base is much stronger than you would think due to CoW. CoW is extremely good in this deck and the more I play with CoW in TnT the more I love it.

[Covetous]

I was just toying with this deck, and going over some older decklists.  Originally, this deck was GRu, with the blue splash for wonder and power, etc.  Then people shifted to simply GR, allowing a more stable manabase and the use of blood moon, which has that tendency to stomp face that we like so much.  I really like the power of the GR build because having a stable mana base is pretty good, I hear.  I do like the addition of chains--it is a huge bomb, and is certainly harder to remove and play around than blood moon.  But when you run a three color deck with no brainstorms and 13 off-color/colorless sources (nearly half the manabase), you may run the risk of getting color-hosed.  And while CoW can help in the face of wastelands, it can't help you get the colors you need in the first place.  But I digress...
Anyway I just wanted to post a two color version of this deck that I've been kicking around.  I haven't had the chance to playtest as much as I would like, but here it is:
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
3 Blood Moon
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi / Trinisphere (I like the Su-Chi, but the 3Sphere might well be the better option)
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Squee, Goblin Kabob
4 Goblin Welder
1 Anger
1 Duplicant
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

The creature base is nearly identical except that I am a huge fan of Su-Chi so I decided to include him.  The blood moons are very powerful even when the opponent has already fetched a basic.  Being able to play only one on-color spell a turn really hurts a player's tempo--that's all we require from blood moon, just some time to let our fatties smoosh face.

[cssamerican]

Covetous, the deck I have presented only has three black spells and a total of eight ways to get that mana. So, getting the mana usually is not a problem, and if for some reason you are unable to retrieve black mana it isn’t as if you will have a handful of dead cards. My deck has the same amount of red mana sources as yours and one additional green source so I see no advantage of running two colors other than Blood Moon, and I believe CoM is superior in most cases to Blood Moon because it is more difficult to work around.
Trinisphere IS superior to Su-Chi! While it doesn’t do anything to life totals it does ensure that control decks can’t keep up with your fat, and it is added protection against combo decks. It also allows for a lock out with wastelands and CoW, and this happens a lot more than you would think.

[Vegeta2711]

I'm curious about Karn, in my testing it's always been too slow to be really effective at Mox chomping and I've rarely wanted to swing w/ my Crucibles and 3spheres. And the Razormane seems like overkill if you've already got Trike in the deck.

My deck is nearly the same, except I still run 2 Su-Chi and only 2 Crucible (I hated drawing more than one). My experinces with Chains have been... not as pleasing as everyone elses. The only match-up they seem to really help me in is against 4cc and even then it's barely been better than Pillar.

Ever consider a blue splash over black and just running AR, TW and Tinker (And a DC to go along with it)? That's what I'm trying next and if that doesn't work, I'll go back to G/R and just run Pillar or Moon MD.

[circus]

I agree that Karn is not needed in TNT.  Without Thirst or Tinker, the Mox munching does not come online soon enough.  Since you are cranking out fatties anyway, there is no need to get cute animating 3/3s.

I am not a fan of splashing a third color in any Workshop deck.  Workshop decks are already plagued by inconsistency, so think about what you are sacrificing when you stretch your mana base too thin.  If you want blue, I suggest ditching the Survivals and building Stacker or BSR.

Razormane is a faster clock than Trike and works under a Null Rod.  Might be worth testing.

[cssamerican]

I really like Karn. He can block a Titan without killing it, he can beat down for four against control at times, he can animate you Trinispheres and CoW for beatdown, and he can eat moxen.  Now while you don't always need all of these abilities all the time, it is nice to have them at your disposal for the price of one slot in a decklist.

Razormane is a beast against Null Rod decks like Fish and Madness. However, I will admit in most matches he isn't needed, but I never said, "Damn, I drew Razormane Masticore, that sucks." Hell, worst case scenario he is a 5/5 first striker that I have to pitch a card for to keep on the board. And many times I will have Squee in hand or a CoW in play to help with this drawback.

With both Karn and Razormane it is probably more of an issue of what would you replace them with? The creature count has to be high, I actually think that I a running as few of creatures as possible, so they would need to be replaced with some other creature. Do you feel that Su-Chi is better in these slots or did you have another creature in mind?

I have thought about the Blue splash a lot, just so I could get DC. But then I realized that adding Mystical Tutor(Tinker #2), Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, and Darksteel Collosus doesn't really do squat to improving the decks most difficult match, combo. In fact, I think you're probably better of just running GR with Pillar or Blood Moon than adding the Blue.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Take it from me, darksteel colossus isn't all he's cracked up to be, you'd be suprised how many decks can get around him.... Yes he will just win you some games, but then you start to realize how big sundering titan is, and you might as well just put him into play.... My thoughts

[Vegeta2711]

Are you really having problems with combo? Between Trini MD and Chalice / Pillar in the board, other than Dragon, all combo has been pretty easy for me.

Razormane I like more than Karn, but he's not my fav. TD to see, since unless I'm in good shape I don't want to be throwing my few cards in hand away. Every creature in my deck, except for Duplicant is pretty much a beast against Fish and few people seem to even play Madness.

I feel Su-Chi or Synod Centuarion really need to be in the deck just to help with turn 1 or 2 fat and for solid creatures w/o any huge drawbacks. (Su-Chi's drawback being less of a problem than Synod) I don't really know of straight up better creatures to run.

[Wollblad]

Just a few weeks ago, I tested TnT with Trinisphere and two Crucibles and three color mana base. The third color was then blue for Ancestral, Time Walk and Tinker. I was supprised how bad synnergy the deck had. The mana base only cept bailing out over and over again and in several duals I found myselfe locked under a Trinisphere just because my opponent found a Wasteland or two and I no Crucible. I had almost the exact mana base you had except that I had only 3 Wooded, no Mana Vault and 3 Tropical instead of 2 Bayou (27 in total). I also had a Quirion Ranger, and I would rather add a second one than removing the only one I had. The concept of SotF and Chains is thrilling, but you must stabilize the mana base. To you mana base I would add a BoP (wonderful to search with survival) and the Mana Vault could perhaps be replaced by a land?

[cssamerican]

Vegeta2711, two Su-Chis in the deck is a possible idea that I am open to; however, without Karn in the deck you have no way to remove moxen, which could be a problem in those cases where your focusing on mana denial. If I were to remove two creatures to fit Su-Chi in the deck, I think I would probably look to Razormane Masticore and Duplicant. The reason being is Razormane Masticore only really shines against Madness, and as you noted that is not a common match up. And Duplicant's strengths in most cases can practically be duplicated with Goblin Welder and Triskelion with proper play.

Wollblad, with twenty lands you should be top decking them faster than your opponent in most cases, and if they do waste your dual while you have a Trinisphere out, then you should be more likely to reach Trinisphere’s three-mana flashpoint because you have lands that tap for three mana. This philosophy is probably stronger in this deck than the one you tested because it runs an additional CoW. However, if you are having problems with mana denial, it is conceivable to replace the Mana Vault with an additional Forest, with two Forest in the deck; it would make the deck much stronger against early mana denial even without a CoW in play.

[Vegeta2711]

See I never -focus- on mana denial, like if it happens that's awesome, but if not I just didn't care. It's too reliant on drawing a Crucible (and then either a karn or resolving a SOTF) for me to really consider it ever.

I agree Duplicant isn't the greatest choice at times, but he's just so effective vs. Workshop aggro (And control slaver w/ titan) of all kinds. This thus far has kept me from cutting him from the MD, but I think I could live with 2-3 in the sideboard if I needed to fit something else in.

[the boogie man]

Instead of putting in the razormane masticore, why not run the original? It pings things faster than razormane, but doesn't work under a null rod. In those games, you could just side board. And this thing is mucj better at coming in on turn one than its cousin.

Feel free to flame me.

[cssamerican]

Vegeta2711, I am going to do some testing this weekend with the creature base. But I do want to be clear by saying I don't necessarily focus on mana denial. However, if all the pieces are there and I am playing that game then I "Focus" in on it, and it is in those instances I like having Karn in the deck to remove any moxen my opponent might have put into play. I also think one of Karn’s greatest assets is that he can block a Sundering Titan turn after turn without removing the Titan from play. This may seem trivial, but in many games I have played it actually has been a big factor. I just feel that Karn's drawback isn't that big of a factor, and that his abilities more than make up for that drawback, especially since his only worthwhile replacement is Su-Chi. Perhaps testing will prove me wrong on this, but I can't see that many games in which I am going to wish the lonely Karn was a Su-Chi.

I believe Synod Centurion is a definite no. Last thing I want to do is play a Mishra's Workshop, Mox, and a Synod Centurion, only to watch my opponent play a Volcanic Island, Mox, and a Gorilla Shaman. This is just asking to lose tempo in so many ways it isn't even funny, at least with Su-Chi you will only lose life points from mana burn, and that is something that you can afford to lose in most games.

Duplicant is great versus artifact aggro, but in most cases SotF can give you such an edge with multiple Goblin Welders that you can squeeze out wins versus other artifact aggro decks. I do agree though the deck should have access to Duplicant for games two and three, and that it might be wise to run more than one in the side, if just for the Titan decks.

Willow_Wisperer, the only reason to run Razormane Masticore is because he can ping under Null Rod and he is a 5/5 first striker. And as mentioned earlier in this thread, these qualities are probably only needed versus Null Rod aggro such as Madness, which is probably not popular enough to justify him. This strategy as a sideboard strategy might even prove mute if you are running multiple Duplicants in the side, since this would be just as devastating to a madness player as the Razormane Masticore.

[Vegeta2711]

I also think one of Karn’s greatest assets is that he can block a Sundering Titan turn after turn without removing the Titan from play.

I've never had a issue with that. If I had multiple Welders to manipulate him, awesome who needs mana. Same if I had SOTF out, I'd gladly just Dupe him and take the hit to the mana, because odds are with him RFG'd I'll win before they drop another one.

But hey, if you like Karn that's fine, I can certainly imagine worse choices for the slot.