[Deck] Pox post 5th Dawn.

[Nubi]

As all Pox players know, Pox was never a tier 1 deck. Many said it lacked that one key card to be tier 1, while I personally have no hope for Pox ever to be tier 1, I do think that one key card has finally come.
The card I speak of is crucible of worlds.

So what makes this card great in pox ? The answer is mana problems. Pox has always had problems with mana, this obviously has to do with the nature of the pox spell (the 3x+1 rule), as it limits one to 3 lands or limits one to not cast it until you get 6 lands. Early builds tried to get a bit around this by running charcoal diamonds, as these are unaffected by Pox.

However dropping them early is a huge tempo loss, if dropped turn 2 you just lost that entire turn. If you play them late game, chances are you already Poxed once, and then you're already low on mana, thus a tempo loss again.
Mirrodin helped a bit here with its talismans. These don't come tapped into play so if dropped turn 2, you can still churn out a duress or a rack or similar. They have another drawback though: life loss.
While life loss usually hurts little, it's bad in Pox as you already hit yourself pretty hard.

This is where Crucible of Worlds come in. If played pre-pox it makes recovering so much easier, as you will have consistent land drops the next 1-2 turns. If on the other hand played post-pox you will get a much larger mana pool in a few turns.
This also means that the deck may finally run spells with higher converted casting cost than 3, thus allowing us to run the mighty abyss.

As if that's not enough, it also allows the pox player to improve its land destruction part to a spot where the opponent will have no land, unless he too runs the crucible. This is obviously archived through recurring strip mine/wastelands. It also opens up to some free life gain through Zuran Orb, a thing I feel Pox could benefit greatly from, although I find it hard to squeeze in the orb to the decklist. Maybe it could be SB'ed and then wished for, that however is a different story.

While the card does cost 3 to drop, I feel it doesn't matter all that much, compared to its huge effect.

I'd like to know how other people feel about this, as I know Pox was once quite popular.

My current decklist, which lacks playtesting is as follows:

Disruption/Removal (19)
4 Pox
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Diabolic Edict
2 The Abyss
1 Balance

Damage (11)
4 The Rack
4 Chimeric Idol
3 Cursed Scroll

Utility (6)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
2 Crucible of Worlds

Mana (24)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Scrubland
9 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

As you can see I run the white splash merely for balance, because it's soooo broken. Also it's what pretty much all my tutors go for (except of course consultation).

This decklist doesn't run mishra's factory, although they too are cruel with crucible they pollute the mana base too much if used alongside wastelands.

My decklist is mostly for showing an example of how crucible can be very usefull. I'll like to see other ideas and views of how it can work its wonders, or if someone disagree with its placement in Pox.

[Xeeko]

Ahh, I've always liked pox, I'm glad to see someone's finally done something to try and improve it. The Crucible sounds like a wonderful idea, although a bit mana intensive, it remains to be seen what this broken card can do. Some comments on your decklist though:
Why all the creature removal? Seems like 4 Edicts, 2 Abyss, and 3 Scroll is a bit of a overkill. I've never liked Scroll in pox at all, it's too expensive to activate, even with Crucible. Also, I've never liked Chimeric Idol, I found 1 Entomb, 1 Nether Spirit to be better, especially since I ran at least 3 Cabal Therapy as well, something I think you should definately include.

[dohsign]

I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Pox - it was one of the first decks that I ever played. But Pox just won't work in T1, for a couple reasons.

1 - You either have to play broken artifacts (so broken it doesn't matter that the other person has null rods), or play null rod.  This deck plays artifacts, but can't deal with null rods (and half the decks run them). Against broken artifact decks, their artifacts are not affected by Pox, so you lose there too.

2 - The win condition is not fast enough. In the modern T1, you either have to win fast or get a serious lock. E.g. even 4 Color Control has to beat down with Angel fast to be successful (compare to the old Weisman control, which could win at its leisure after the scepter lock). The reason is that cards these days are so powerful you just cannot spare any time as the opponent top-decks. One (Draw 7 | Tinker | Cunning Wish | Ancetral | Intuition | Tog | Null Rod) and your game is over.

So ...  some cards just cannot compete anymore. Pox is one of them.

[Kasuras]

This deck indeed does not have the potential to become a tier1 budget deck. But still, I really think it can be improved.

Some things I noticed in the decklist:

-Why no trinisphere? All your important spells (Crucible and Pox.) cost 3. It helps you get the verocious 3sphere + wasteland + crucible lock. Which is pretty strong together with pox.

-I would really recommend white. Mono color decks don't work anymore in t1. Every color needs a splash to work properly. White gives you balance, stp and vindicate (Which is a lot stronger than edict. The 3 mana cost doesn't matter since you also play 3sphere, right?)

I think this should be enough to create a whole new list, which may be better in the current metagame. Drop me a pm if you want to test via appr.

[Nubi]

Xeeko - I run alot of creature removal because my meta is swarming with aggro decks. I play against WW, FCG, Madness, sligh, heck even stompy. And there have so far been no combo decks at all.

As for the Nether Spirit I used to run it, and it's very broken with therapy, but the abyss ruins that idea. Also I never really felt I needed more disruption.

Chimeric Idols are there because:
a. They hit for more than Mishra's Factory
b. They are unaffected by Pox as opposed to the a bit stronger Steel Golem
c. They are unaffected by the abyss

While I really like the factory, it just doesn't work alongside wasteland. The mana base becomes too non-black.

As for Cursed Scroll I really only use it as creature removal against weenie decks (which I do face alot of these days, but that's a detail), most of the time it's there for the win.

Btw. I'll switch edicts for innocent blood, since I'll be tapped out during my opponents turn anyway due to the idols.

dohsign: I realise Pox will never be Tier 1. But it's still a fun deck to play, and the rack has often won me games singlehanded (it's unaffected by null rod)

kasuras: I already run the white splash for Balance. I don't feel StP is a good idea in this particular deck, as you will be hitting yourself hard with the Poxen, and then giving your opponent life. I'm quite sure that if I StP something huge I just lost the game right there, since every Pox I cast after that will hurt my life more than his. (I realise he loses more life points than I, but i get closer to 0 than he)

Trinisphere seems like a really good idea, I'll try to get it stuffed in somehow. As for Vindicate I ran them once and really didn't like them. That was however before Crucible and the problem was I never could afford to cast them. With 3sphere it matters less as edict/innocent blood will cost the same and with crucible I should be able to get more mana sources on the table.
As for your offer to playtest via appr, I'm grateful and will PM you whenever I get the decklist created (will be working on it today).

[Marton]

... play against WW, FCG, Madness, sligh, heck even stompy

All those decks are hit hard by chalice of the void. The one thats the less affected by it is madness, but madness discard outlets all costs 2 mana So chalice of the void would also hit them. FCG isn't affected as much as the others, but it could still help in the matchup.

Trinisphere/crucible is nice for blocking them, but trinisphere severely slows you down also. I am aware that chalice could also hit you hard, but perhaps you could rework the deck around it.

[Nubi]

Having tested a bit, I found the abyss to be very powerful, however it just doesn't feel very pox-like, and I might cut it merely for that reason. Also I feel with only 24 mana sources, that the deck lacks mana quite often. So I'm considering removing the two abyss for 2 talismans or just two swamps.
As for trinisphere I haven't found room for it yet, I did consider cutting the cursed scrolls for 3sphere, however that would leave the deck with very few win conditions.
As for including chalice main deck, I'm quite unsure how great it'd be. The deck really has stuff with ccc from ranging from 1 to 3, and I feel it'd be difficult to change.
I.e. ccc=2 means hymn would go as well as balance. Not too great imho :/ I don't think chalice fits main, but it's a good SB option I think. As the stuff it'd hurt can be sided out for it.

[Jacob Orlove]

Unlocked and moved to casual by request.

[Nazdakka]

After playing around with the original list, this is what I found:

1) Crucible seems to be too expensive to get into play, however broken it is after it gets there. In the games I played with the initial list I found I was getting screwed a LOT by my own Poxes, and I found myself adding more and more mana until I realised lowering the curve was a better plan. I eventually settled on 25 land, 3 artifact mana, and 5 temp. mana, with no Crucibles, and the deck feels a lot better to me.

2) As I said before, you need LOTS of mana - 19 lands is nowhere near enough. I eventually ended up with 25, although 4 are Factories.

3) Creature kill: Spinning Darkness and Innocent Blood are excellent, although not removing Nether Spirit is a bit awkward with Spinning Darkness. I haven't tried StP, but the mana is a problem, and you don't want the opposition gaining life if at all possible.

4) Win: The Rack is beyond bad and floating around somewhere on the other side. It doesn't so anything apart from hurt the opponent, which means it is an AWFUL topdeck. I've found Factories, Idols, and Entomb/Nether Spirit do the job quite well, and can block to boot.

Pox is clearly not a viable tournament strategy, but it can take surprise wins off 'better' decks... the best result I got on MWS was a random 2-0 win against fully powered 7/10

My decklist:

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
12 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

1 Nether Spirit
1 Entomb
4 Chimeric Idol

4 Pox
1 Balance
3 Spinning Darkness
4 Innocent Blood
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy

[Jacob Orlove]

I thought the general Pox consensus had been that factories + idols didn't work.

edit: Chimeric Idols, I mean. Tapping factories to activate your 3/3 isn't synergy.

[Alfred]

What about guardian idol?

[Kasuras]

First off, I wish to apologize for the reply I posted here before. Now I read it back, I see how bad a reaction it truly was. Adding balance in a deck that already runs it... What was I doing/thinking? I blame it on the time of writing which was just after I woke up.

Well, on to the list:

-You said you had a lot of mana screw when you played with Crucible. However; I wonder if you played with fetch lands in that list? They would make sure you wouldn't have any mana screw. The list you are posting here doesn't have any fetch lands, which I understand due to the life loss of Pox itself.

-Did you ever test Exalted Angel? It's casting cost is indeed a pain in the neck because getting 4 mana is really hard in this deck, but they would give you the chance of playing fetch lands and perhaps even cities of brass to avoid color screw.

These 2 cards could give you the chance of adding crucible which makes sure you don't get mana/color screw + locks the opponent with wastelands. Adding the Angel works perfect with the lock you are trying to get, or may get if you add crucible. And finally: adding crucible, angel and fetch lands can also give you enough mana for Trinisphere. I will try to test this a bit, because these points are based on, biased, theory.

[Nazdakka]

Jacob: You're probably right about the Chimeric Idols... it can work if the Factories attack while the Idols go on blocking duty then it's OK, but that's the only time when they get along at all. Guardian Idol seems just so BAD though, and that seems to be the best 'creature' remaining that is immune to Pox. I'm trying it at the moment though,

Kasuras: I haven't tested it, but Angel doesn't seem like a good idea because it costs either 4WW or 3 and 2WW mana to use, dies to Pox, and potentially stops Balance doing what it's meant to.

[Fastbond]

The main problem with Pox has been that the opponent can recover from the disruption too easily and with not a lot of draw tutoring/you won't get the card combos you need(Wastelands+Crucible,Pox+Crucible).  When Pox was good, the decks were very slow.  I mean, Keeper ran Stroke and Geyser back then.  Sligh and even combo were slow.  Since Keeper's card draw was so expensive it was easy to lock them out of the game but now thanks to brainstorm it's easier for them to dig for recovery.  Pox's initial wave of disruption doesn't do enough to lock them out of the game.  Trinisphere isn't so hot in Pox because even if you play with ancient tombs all of Pox's good disruption costs more than one black mana thus your opponent is more likely to get out of the trinisphere lock then you are.

[SpiritDeed]

This is a deck I have been running in Casual T1 since 5d was realesed around some other boards it's been called CoW Pox.
I would suggest to balance out a lack of draw I use in mine w/ Chains of Mephistopheles.

For reference here is my list.

WIN CONDITIONS
1 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
CONTROL/DISRUPTION
4 Pox
2 Death Cloud
4 Vindicate
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Balance
DRAW/TUTOR
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Entomb
1 Yawgmoth's Will
UTILITY
2 The Abyss
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Crucible of Worlds
ACCEL/LANDS
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 Swamp
3 Tainted Plains
4 Cave of Koilos
4 Scabland