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Author Topic: [Article]Why Crucible of Worlds is the new Black Vise  (Read 2474 times)
Ric_Flair
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« on: August 18, 2004, 10:31:41 am »

Here is the article:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7908

Let's see if this argument holds water.  My initial read or two was that it does not for the simple reason that Black Vise is cheaper to play and leads directly to victory on its own, while Crucible is slower and requires a combo to do its work.  That said let's see if Carsten's argument passes through Steve's restriction test.

Note:  I am assuming that Carsten is advocating for such given that we all know that Black Vise is one of two archetypal cards worthing of banning not because of power but because what Steve calls "metagame distortion" i.e. overpopulation of the metagame leading to a warped metagame.  Also, I am assuming that Steve's test, found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5613, is the test that guides the DCI along with their own criteria of "unrecoverable early game swing" as Aaron Forsythe talked about here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af17 and also used by Randy Buehler here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102 and here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb100.  I tried to articulate more clearly exactly what unrecoverable early game swing was in this letter published by SCG, found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6184.  

Basically all of this stuff comes down to these 5 criteria:

1) Is the card the key factor in an dominant deck?
2) Is the card a key factor in a deck that is excessively metagame distorting?
3) Is the card too powerful on its own?
4) Does the card distort 1.5?
5) Does a card create an unrecoverable early game swing?

I think that criteria 4 is stupid since 1.5 should have its own list, but until that day comes, I think we all know that it is something that the DCI considers given that Entomb and Earthcraft are still on the list.

Okay, preliminary stuff out of the way, let's begin in earnest.  

Test #1:

While Crucible is a great card in both 4cc and Fish I am pretty sure that this is not what Steve or the DCI had in mind when applying this test.  The idea here is that one card breaks a deck and makes that deck so much better than every other deck.  In my mind, a card like Necropotence in Trix or LED in Long is the best example.  Without these cards, the given decks just can't work.  The broken card that breaks the deck is essential to the deck's performance.  In Carsten's article all but one deck he mentioned used Crucible as a supplement to their main plan.  Decks like Fish and 4cc are BETTER with Crucible on the board but they don't need it to win.  Only his mention of Turboland Redux or what ever it is called uses Crucible in a way that I think test #1 is aimed at.  But here is the problem, at least so far, that deck is not dominant, so Crucible, as the heart of that deck, does not qualify under Test 1.  I am pretty sure that Carsten does not think that Crucible is a problem in the same way LED is and thus would not make an argument under test #1, but it is at least worth noting that it fails this test.

Test #2:

More likely is that Carsten believes that Crucible is metagame distorting and thus should be restricted for meeting test #2.  At least that is what the allusion to Black Vise would imply.  However, I think that again Crucible does not meet the test.  

Black Vise (and Strip Mine) while being good are clearly not as powerful, on their own, as a card like Yawgmoth's Will or Bargain or Tolarian Academy.  The problem with these cards, and the reason they have to be restricted, is because in multiples they overwhelm many if not all deck strategies.  They instantly winnow away tier 2 decks and they place inordinate amounts of pressure on tier 1 decks, forcing them to radically alter their deck lists.  This is not a bad thing, per se, but it becomes a problem because every deck can run these cards.  This means that the metagame revolves around two cards that everyone uses, in turn making games mere luck about who draws which first or more.  In the end the cards and the strategies in between Strip Mine and Black Vise are unimportant.  Another major problem is that these cards cannot readily be metagamed against.  While Wasteland is virtually the same as Strip Mine, people can and do play basic lands to work around it.  The same cannot be said for Strip Mine or Black Vise.  Their indiscriminate nature makes its very difficult to alter a deck to compete against these cards without altering the deck entirely (like running Darksteel Citadel and even more 0 cc artifacts).

Here while Crucible can be played in every deck it is not.  That alone is a sign that it is not, at least at this point, a card like Black Vise or Strip Mine.  Furthermore, like Wasteland, but not like Strip Mine, Crucible can be hindered by a slight change in strategy.  Adding a dash of artifact removal, graveyard removal, or basic lands guards against most of the problems Carsten mentioned in his article.  Strip Mine and Crucible is still a dangerous combo, but Vintage is full of dangerous combos with Restricted cards as parts.  In other words Crucible is not as indiscriminately powerful as Strip Mine and Black Vise.  It is powerful only in combination with other cards and its effects can be guarded against with only slight changes to decks, SBs, and playstyle.  I don't think that it passes this test for those reasons.  It has potential, but I would say that the fact that it requires other cards--fetches or Wastelands/Strip Mine--to work makes me think that Crucible is not broken but merely very good.  The problem is not Crucible/Fetch, but more Crucible/Waste and that is something we can guard against.

Test #3:

I think the archetypal card here is Mind's Desire, Yawg Win or Bargain, and while good Crucible is NOT in that league, nor do I think that Carsten is suggesting it is.  I think he believes it to be akin to Black Vise.  I disagree for reasons stated above.

Test #4:

Not applicable.  Plus I don't have the expertise in 1.5 to comment.  Suffice to say I think it is not going to kill the format, especially where FCG, Dragon, and Landstill make up the tier 1.  Those decks are either not susceptible to the Wasteland recursion or too fast to be effected by Crucible.

Test #5:

I also think that this test heavily mitigates against Crucible's restriction.  Crucible is a three mana card that requires another card to put you in a good position.  It does not win the game on that turn.  As such, while it is good it is neither fast enough, nor is the effect so debilitating as to qualify as an unrecoverable early game swing.  With Belcher in this format and Force of Will heavily, heavily played, a 3cc artifact is going to have to do much more than let to get one land back a turn (something that takes up a land drop and whose greatest effect is to destroy another player's land) to meet this criteria.  All of the effects that Carsten mentioned are mid- to late-game effects: the purification of your deck by recurring fetches and a lock created by Wasteland and Strip Mine.  How is Crucible any more of a lock than a 1st turn Trinisphere?  I just don't see it.  Plus Crucible's effectiveness is limited by a fundamental rule of the game: one land per turn.  Compare this to Storm, an ability that is the center of many combo decks in the format today.  With the built in limitation of the land rule, I just can't see Crucible being as explosively devastating as Tendrils or Belcher.  Nor do I see the lock as being substantially better than Turn 1 Trinisphere.

In conclusion I think that Carsten, though right to be concerned, is ultimately wrong.  I also think that Crucible is an excellent card to stretch and test the metagame.  I recognize its power, but I think that at this time, the case has not been made.  Furthermore I think that it is not even a close case.
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2004, 11:09:20 am »

I can gaurantee you'll see more Crucibles  at Gencon than you can shake a stick at...yes, a really big stick.

It's Crucible of "Worlds" after all--where is there a better place than the World Championship to see if it really is format defining?

From the dictionary:

cru·ci·ble [ krssəb’l ] (plural cru·ci·bles)
 
noun  
 
4. testing circumstances: a place or set of circumstances where people or things are subjected to forces that test them and often make them change.

Can't argue with that...
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2004, 11:29:04 am »

Absolutely excellent analysis Tony.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  Crucible may be in every tier one deck in type one - but that could, actually, be a healthy environment.  Why?  Crucible is slow and if Crucible is good it may just mean that the format is slow enough to be enjoyable.  If no deck is dominant than decks that run crucible are competing with each other and not tying up the metagame at all.

While I realize this leaves some with a bad taste in their mouth - you can't argue with the fact that you can play one of half a dozen good decks that abuse crucible.  

Stephen
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2004, 01:18:25 pm »

Quote
Test #4:

Not applicable. Plus I don't have the expertise in 1.5 to comment. Suffice to say I think it is not going to kill the format, especially where FCG, Dragon, and Landstill make up the tier 1. Those decks are either not susceptible to the Wasteland recursion or too fast to be effected by Crucible.

1.5 also doesn't have Strip Mine.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2004, 02:52:19 pm »

Since I somewhat keep track of 1.5, basically MUD is tier 1 thanks to Crucible. That's about the only real change though.  Surprised
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2004, 03:09:07 am »

Well, I guess I'm the only Gencon attendee that disagrees. Every time I resolved a Crucible at Gencon, and I played them in *every* match, they were absolutely game breaking. I don't see how anybody with half a grain of sense can argue that this card should be allowed in multiples.

The speed of the format is entirely irrelevant. It provides an extremely powerful 2 card combo with Wasteland. It creates a broken combo with *land*. The argument about playing decks with basic land just doesn't wash. Sure, go ahead and play mono-blue in this format and I'll be pleased to watch you get your ass handed to you by, well, just about everything. Steve admittedly made Top 8 on the strength of some luck in what should otherwise be hopeless matchups (FCG, TnT, TMS, etc.).
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2004, 10:14:18 am »

I probably wasn't clear about my matchups concerning mono blue.  Three of my teammates, including myself piloted mono blue and had, collectively no losses until the fifth round.  

My SB is heavily dedicated to Workshop Aggro matches: Energy Flux, Blue Elemental Blast, Control Magic and Propoganda in combination with Back to basics.  I also brought in Propoganda against FCG.  I also tested Domineer, but it was, I felt, superfluous.

My story about FCG was meant to illustrate the necessity about getting through the first two rounds, but in addition, the fact that modern non-workshop aggro decks are not efficient.  Mono Blue has hidden strength against FCG becuase each counter costs as much, or is cheaper than the threats they play.  I've tried to explain why in my primer.
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2004, 04:48:32 pm »

Quote from: Shock Wave
Well, I guess I'm the only Gencon attendee that disagrees. Every time I resolved a Crucible at Gencon, and I played them in *every* match, they were absolutely game breaking. I don't see how anybody with half a grain of sense can argue that this card should be allowed in multiples.

The speed of the format is entirely irrelevant. It provides an extremely powerful 2 card combo with Wasteland. It creates a broken combo with *land*. The argument about playing decks with basic land just doesn't wash. Sure, go ahead and play mono-blue in this format and I'll be pleased to watch you get your ass handed to you by, well, just about everything. Steve admittedly made Top 8 on the strength of some luck in what should otherwise be hopeless matchups (FCG, TnT, TMS, etc.).


Not only that, but in decks like mono-blue and my U/G Survival deck, even though these aren't running Crucible, they are running "virtual" Crucibles in Back to Basics and Eternal Witness.  As you already have half of Crucible's effect built into the deck based on their construction (the protection from LD part of Crucible,) these cards get to function with similar locking effect.  Massive mana denial effect and a simultaneous resistance to mana denial is really powerful, and Crucible lets you effortlessly put this in any deck.
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2004, 04:53:24 pm »

But there is another angle to this: so what?  

Is mana denail "unhealthy"?  People bitch and whine that T1 is about combo and speed kills that win on turn 1 and that the fundamental turn is too low.  

Now the complaints seem to amount to the idea that Wasteland combo is harming Type One.  I don't see how the speed of the format is irrellevant. If Crucible is a broken card, I think the format is fine becuase its greviously slow.  Additionally, Tendrils combo doesn't give a rats ass about Crucible - at least, my Longdeath doesn't.  It's happy to see that someone has devoted 4 slots to it.  

If Crucible is seeing lots and lots of play, that, by definition, means that things are slow.  That isn't a problem, in my view, unless one deck uses that to completely dominate or excessively distort the metagame.  We restrict to kill decks, not metagame slowness.

To say that the speed of the format is irrellevant doesn't make sense to me.  One sign that Type One is unhealthy is when the fundamental turn becomes turn one.  Another is when one deck is dominating.  If neither of those is happening, what is the problem?
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2004, 09:14:56 pm »

Shock Wave:

Please take this with the caveat that I truly respect what you say, even if you disagree with me, like now.

Quote
Every time I resolved a Crucible at Gencon, and I played them in *every* match, they were absolutely game breaking. I don't see how anybody with half a grain of sense can argue that this card should be allowed in multiples.


Four comments here, first using yourself as the sole sample size is really never a good way to make an argument about the power of a card.  Lots of cards can be powerful every once in a while and even all the time against certain decks and in certain metagames.  But this does not mean that they are worthy of being restricted.  Second, here is a brief list of cards that can be played in multiples that are powerful, even game breaking:

Force of Will
Mana Drain
Mishra's Workshop
Wasteland
Goblin Welder
Null Rod
Brainstorm
Fetchlands
Mindslaver
Crucible of Worlds
Standstill
Thirst of Knowledge
Psychatog
Bazaar of Baghdad
Illusionary Mask
Dark Ritual
Diminishing Returns
Tendrils of Agony
Goblin Charbelcher
Survival of the Fittest
Blood Moon
Back to Basics

Everyone of these cards is amazing, even earth shattering in the right metagame.  We went through a period when NB hate was crazy and decks like Ankh Sligh and Sui were good.  Everyone added some basics to their decks and the power of the NB hate decks dwindled.  Crucible just exploits the susceptibility of many decks to NB hate.  We've become lax AND the metagame has slowed down enough to make Crucible viable.  

The other thing that people seem to forget is that Crucible is only as viable and as good as it is because of Null Rod.  Without Null Rod, artifact based combo decks become much better and the format speeds up.  With a faster format, Crucible just becomes a win more card or something that is entirely too slow.  

Finally, the thing is that with fetchies and duals, nearly every deck can run any card with only one mana specific casting cost.  Ubiquity alone is not enough, otherwise we start giving Brainstorm the hairy eyeball.  And if that happens pretty much EVERY card is suspect.  A card that is restricted for the same or similar reasons as Vise and Strip Mine were must be a) every where and b) distorting the metagame.  If we can all add a few basics to our deck to stop the Crucible fueled Wasteland rampage I don't think there is anything distorting about Crucible.  

We have to wait and see, but I think that things will turn out okay.  Crucible challenges the format like Null Rod does, and just like Null Rod, I think the results will be beneficial and open the format up to even more people and less expensive decks.  

JP: I respect you as well, but again I take issue with what you said.

Quote
in decks like mono-blue and my U/G Survival deck...they are running "virtual" Crucibles in Back to Basics and Eternal Witness...you already have half of Crucible's effect built into the deck based on their construction (the protection from LD part of Crucible,) these cards get to function with similar locking effect. Massive mana denial effect and a simultaneous resistance to mana denial is really powerful, and Crucible lets you effortlessly put this in any deck.


JP recursive NB hate, like all NB hate is powerful only when the metagame becomes too dependent on NB lands.  The fact that it is recursive or permanent is irrelevant if we change our decks to decrease or, ideally, eliminate their susceptibility to NB.  In other words, you can waste your land drops getting back Wastelands all you want if I have no non-basics.  I think we can all agree that the "dual land Thawing Glaciers" effect of Crucible, while good, is not broken, either alone or in tandem with the conditionally powerful recursive NB hate power.
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2004, 12:55:29 pm »

I wanted to say this before Gencon, but didn't want to give anyone else the idea of the deck I was going to play - but in my article on mono blue I say:

Quote
In such a field, Back to Basics has a similar functionality to Crucible, but trumps it. Back to Basics in addition to many basic Islands is a threat that the metagame is not prepared to handle.



I don't think Crucible should be restricted anymore than Blood Moon or Back to Basics.  I also added in my article:

Quote
The most common card among 4cc, the Mishra's Workshop decks, and Fish is probably Crucible of the Worlds. Because it is so powerful in the metagame, I have no doubt that many people will bring decks to the table that are designed on abusing it as much as possible.
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2004, 06:34:13 pm »

Quote
A card that is restricted for the same or similar reasons as Vise and Strip Mine were must be a) every where and b) distorting the metagame. If we can all add a few basics to our deck to stop the Crucible fueled Wasteland rampage I don't think there is anything distorting about Crucible.

Actually, basics are little help while you still run significant nonbasics. I saw Shock Wave Crucible Eastman to a defeat in round six, with Eastman trying to fight by playing basic Islands, sitting on three Deltas until he needed them, and finally playing a Crucible of his own. He was still creamed. Rich got the first CoW, and that was that. I'm not saying it happens that way every time, but it was pretty savage. Don't forget that even though there's only one Strip Mine, it still makes the combo about 25% more effective and is an auto-include for most decks anyway. Basic lands are no defense against the combo at least part of the time. To me, this makes it considerably more dangerous than B2B and Blood Moon.
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