Dooms day

[the boogie man]

Does any one have a good combo to fetch with dooms day? So far my deck is mono black with the bauble-head win, but someone told me that you could also just doomsday with timetwister in hand, but what would be the best win condition with that?

My build currently looks like this

i7x swamp

4x doomsday
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual

3x disciple of the vault
3x sphere of awakening
4x conjurer's bauble

1x yawgmoths bargain
1x necropotence
1x demonic tutor
4x nights whispers
1x infernal contract

4x unmask
4x duress

1x black lotus
1x mox jet
1x chrome mox
1x lions eye diamond

1x tendrils of agony

[policehq]

What would Doomsday with Timetwister accomplish other than auto-loss? You have to have seven cards in your library in order not to deck yourself.

I think that you need more maindeck disruption. Since the deck can operate on one land, Tangle Wire seems like a good choice. You can still cast Dark/Cabal Rituals, and your opponent is limited to Force of Will as a counter. Perhaps Tangle Wire should replace Unmask.

Sol Ring would be a better choice than Chrome Mox for mana-acceleration since it will still give you a first-turn Helm of Awakening, and once a Helm is out, it is still free like Chrome Mox.

Barry

[AngryPheldagrif]

Uh, you might like [card]Helm of Awakening[/card] I guess.

[the boogie man]

Ya, sorry, I forgot the helms.

The only thing that I dont like about the tangle wires is that they do not consistently come down first turn like unmask can, and fyi, I cut the tendrils to put in a cabal therapy.

And the thing with timetwister that I was talking about, but you'd have to have another card in hand too, then you would draw the library, then win.

[Fastbond]

I think the combo needs to be something like turn one Dark Ritual, Doomsday.

Turn two, ancestral into three cards that win the game.
I can't think of any workable kills with three cards.  Berserk, blood lust, ball lightning?  Dark Ritual, entomb, animate dead?  Black Lotus, channel, fireball?

[Cavius The Great]

What would Doomsday with Timetwister accomplish other than auto-loss? You have to have seven cards in your library in order not to deck yourself.

You wouldn't deck yourself because Timetwister shuffles your hand into your library as well. So just as long as you have a sufficient amount of cards in your hand the combo will work.

[Gleemax]

Cast Doomsday with Timetwister and any card in hand, fetch:  black lotus, LED, regrowth, tendrils of agony, Mana Drain/FoW

1. play timetwister (hand: Lotus, LED, ToA, Regrowth, Permission, random, Doomsday)

2. play lotus and LED.  sac lotus for GGG, cast Regrowth targeting Timetwister.  In response to Regrowth, sac LED for UUU.

3. Hand:  Timetwister.  GY:  everything else.  Mana:  GUUU.  Cast Timetwister.  (Hand:  Lotus, LED, ToA, Regrowth, Permission, random, Doomsday, U in pool.)

wash, rinse, repeat.  on the last cycle, use Lotus for BBB to cast Tendrils.  hopefully your random card will be blue so you can doomsday FoW for extra security.

now the challenge is to build a deck that reliably produces this hand (Timetwister, Doomsday, exactly one other card.)

Obviously:

//Doomsday
4x Doomsday
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Timetwister
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Regrowth

//Card Drawing/Tutors
1x Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

//Permission
4x FoW

//Mana
5x Moxen
4x Dark Ritual
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault

that's 29 cards.  other possible inclusions:

Island, Swamp, Underground Sea, Fetchlands
Bayou/Tropical Island + Xantid Swarm
Intuition
Brainstorm
AK
Mana Drain
Time Walk
Yawg Will

thoughts?

[BreathWeapon]

You can try, Dark Ritual->Death Wish for Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon, Ambassador Laquatous, Animate Dead, Animate Dead.

Usually you'll go off on Turn 2 with a 2cc Animate and additional Mana Accelerant in hand.

In terms of pure Combo, you may find this to your liking.

Doomsday Dragon

4xWorldgorger Dragon
1xAmbassador Laquatos

1xSundering Titan

4xBuried Alive
4xBazaar of Baghdad

4xDoomsday
4xSpoils of the Vault
1xDemonic Consultation

4xAnimate Dead
4xDance of the Dead

4xXantid Swarm

1xBlack Lotus
4xDark Ritual
1xLotus Petal
4xElvish Spirit Guide
1xMana Crypt
1xMox Jet
4xFetch Lands
4xBayou
5xSwamp

So far, I haven't found any other deck capable of using Doomsday as effectively as this can. You can play around with the list a bit by dropping Petal, Crypt, Titan for Duress or Demonic/Vampiric etc.

Setting up with Doomsday takes some getting used to. You have a great deal of freedom to alternate cards Stacked for cards In Hand. I usually assume I'll always have an Animate, so really the questions comes down to if you have a Bazaar or Dragon in hand can you fit in Black Lotus or Xantid Swarm etc to help you go off.

The deck has mad synergy. If you can't consistantly Gold Fish Turn 2 Wins, your doing something wrong.

[AngryPheldagrif]

you can't consistantly Gold Fish Turn 2 Wins, your doing something very wrong.

Like playing the deck? You've realistically speeded up Dragon's goldfish by about a quarter of a turn and removed a boatload of consistency and disruption. You play a mere 5 tutors, each saddled with the unique ability to remove your single win condition from the game. The only way you can possibly pull off second turn kills is with a veritable god-hand and first turn kills are nigh-impossible. I'm assuming something like: first turn tutor for Doomsday. Second turn play it. Third turn win. You win better with the normal Dragon route.

-Dan

[edit@Gleemax]: Welcome to TMD, where having a hand of Timetwister, Doomsday, and exactly one other card while still having tons of mana is just a smidge too impractical for consideration.

[jpmeyer]

[edit@Gleemax]: Welcome to TMD, where having a hand of Timetwister, Doomsday, and exactly one other card while still having tons of mana is just a smidge too impractical for consideration.

And cannot beat a deck that is running Force of Will.

[BreathWeapon]

you can't consistantly Gold Fish Turn 2 Wins, your doing something very wrong.

Like playing the deck? You've realistically speeded up Dragon's goldfish by about a quarter of a turn and removed a boatload of consistency and disruption. You play a mere 5 tutors, each saddled with the unique ability to remove your single win condition from the game. The only way you can possibly pull off second turn kills is with a veritable god-hand and first turn kills are nigh-impossible. I'm assuming something like: first turn tutor for Doomsday. Second turn play it. Third turn win. You win better with the normal Dragon route.

-Dan

BS,

That quote was a Typo, I meant to say: If your NOT winning consistantly on Turn 2, your doing something wrong.

You've obviously never played with this deck at all, judging from your commentary, because it wins on Turn 2 as the Norm and not the Exception. Reference PTW's 1.5 Spoils Dragon List for further evidence, if you don't believe me. It consistantly won on Turn 2 with No Power and only 4 Tutors.

Turn 1 wins are possible, and they occur every 10 games or so. They usually consist of Swamp, Ritual, 2 Other Mana Accelerants and Buried Alive + Animate. You can also try Swamp, Ritual, Spoils->Ritual, Buried Alive, ESG, Animte=Win.

The fact that your basing your judgements on Tutor->Doomsday is laudible. Doomsday functions as an "Oops I Win" Card only. This deck is Spoils-Dragon First and Doomsday.dec Second.  

This deck is,

A) A FULL TURN Faster Than U/g/b Dragon
B) Significantly More Consistant Than U/g/b Dragon
C) Capable of Winning on The First Turn

The deck doesn't have to run any less Disruption than U/g/b Dragon, if you want. I stated this above already, you can cut Petal/Crypt/Titan for 3xDuress. However, I haven't found the added disruption to be necessary. In general, you can Spoils for Xantid Swarm on Turn 1 and play it with ESG Mana (Which is why ESG is used over off color Moxen). Then, Turn 2 you can drop Bazaar to pitch Dragon, Swing with the Swarm and play your 2nd Accelerant with Animate Dead=Win etc etc.

Yes, this deck can discard its win condition to Spoils or Consult. So what? Draw 7 can RFG both of its Tendrils with Diminishing Returns. However, Dragon can still draw the game by Animating the Dragon. Draw 7 has no such resource.

So, I think you need to sit down and become familiar with the deck before you shoot your mouth off again with such falsities. I'm sure DiceManX, Bulls on Parade or Cssamerican can back me up here.

This deck may have its issues, but it's MUCH better than every other deck with Doomsday I've seen proposed so far on these boards.

[wuaffiliate]

What the hell? So let me get this right, you want to play doomsday for:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Worldgorger Dragon
Ambassador Laquatous
Animate
Animate

If the opponent is holding stifle, swords, fow, or a host of other removal you just lose. You want to do this turn 1-2? you will not have disrupted enough to get that past any control deck. If you are going to wait a turn to duress or swarm, how is this any better than the current dragon lists?

Dragon is Ubg because it can get to a win through redundancy, doomsday takes away the chance that dragon can combo off again if stoped the first time.

Doomsday is very fragile and would only produce wins vs aggro decks with little to no control elements, and we know how common those are.

[AngryPheldagrif]

*Quite a bit of anger*

Er, I think you missed the fact that my entire post was engineered to explain why the Doomsdays you added (this being a post about Doomsday) were useless. Swamp, Ritual, Buried Alive, etc. has this slight problem of completely lacking Doomsday.

You might want to test the deck with the Doomsdays pulled for other stuff, like good cards!

The fact that your basing your judgements on Tutor->Doomsday is laudible. Doomsday functions as an "Oops I Win" Card only. This deck is Spoils-Dragon First and Doomsday.dec Second.

Uh, why exactly are you putting in a backup plan? It's more vulnerable than your main plan!

Oh, and Draw-7/TPS run double Tendrils and Diminishing Returns is redundant with a ton of the deck, whereas your Spoils and Consultation are your only tutors. I'd think it'd be worth it at very least to run Demonic Tutor. It's one more colorless for a complete lack of those furry, loveable drawbacks.

-Dan

edit:

If you are going to wait a turn to duress or swarm, how is this any better than the current dragon lists?

Because removing Duress removes the temptation to not go ahead and win. Cautious players suck

And who plays StP anymore? That is soooooo 1996.

[BreathWeapon]

Bazaar, Worldgorger, Laquatos, Animate, Animate was the generic set up I used against Control Decks with out MD Removal like Drain Slaver, Mono-U, Landstill or Fish. I'd just play 3 Consecutive Animates, assuming 1 in hand, and Push Through their Counter Wall.  If I was sitting across from 4cc, I'd stack swarms or play one before Rit->D.Day and settle in for a Turn 3 win.

Bazaar, Worldgorger, Laquatos, Animate, Animate is only the Doomsday set up when I don't have a Bazaar or Dragon in hand. It often plays out differently IRL based on your First 7. You can be much more liberal with your Stack Order after you know what the 3 missing cards are (Swamp, Ritual, Doomsday, Animate being assumed).

Take it to Appr or Workstation and you'll see what I meen.

As far as being "better" than U/b/g Dragon, I never said it was. It's just Proxy 5 Friendly for Budget Players, and it's a lot of fun to play. However, looking at the play environment, this deck is probably going to be at its best with Keeper's Manabase under assault and Shops SBing their Chalices. I've also seen very few Crypts in SBs as of late, so I don't think it's going to get any better for B/g Dragon than right now.

[wuaffiliate]

How about you do some real testing, instead of throwing theory at us? Real testing is NOT done on MWS or a Appr.

[BreathWeapon]

I've played Spoils Dragon since PTW posted his 1.5 List, I know how the deck works.

I suggested Appr and Workstation so you could get a feel for what the Deck's Hands look like.

[Kowal]

Yes, they look like hands that lose to any form of disruption, which is extraordinarily common in this environment.  Your build loses to a lot.  Please stop spamming this thread with it.

[wuaffiliate]

I didn't say you did not know how to play the deck. I said to test it alot vs a gauntlet, then come to a conclusion. You dont just throw a list together and say it's good, you need proof.

Testing and Results prove a deck, not theory bullshit and MWS/Appr newbs with nothing solid to back it up. So go play some tourneys, collect some heads like everyone else, stop the spam with terrible lists.

[jpmeyer]

This has rapidly degenerated