Razorfin.dec

[TheSpitefulWun]

First and foremost i would like to apoligize to the site moderator Kowal for my previous post. I was unaware that there was site ettiquette. I was trying to get some feedback on the deck i played at the Waterbury tourney this last Saturday. I did fairly well placing 28th and was hoping that people on the famous Mana Drain would be able to help me to improve my deck. The deck list is as follows....

Creature Base

3x Gilded Drake
4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Raorfin Hunter
2x Gorilla Shaman

Counter Magics

4x Force of Will
2x Daze

Draw Engines

4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Brainstorm

Misc

4x Echoing Truth
2x Chain of Vapor

Mana Base

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain
6x Island
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus

Sideboard

1x Rebuild
1x Misdirection
2x Fire/Ice
1x Chain of Vapor
3x Null Rod
2x Energy Flux
3x REB
2xBEB

I designed this deck to deal with all the power hitting decks that are being played in type one as of right now. It has good match ups  with 7/10, Control Slaver, Fish, 4cC, Stacks, etc. One of my main problems is that i have NO way of dealing with decks like Draw seven. I got tired of being beaten by the ever so popular Tinker, Darksteel Collosus combo, and the new extremely popular Sundering Titan. This is how it deals with the specific decks.......

7/10 Match-up

I used to play Fish but after a while i realized that against a deck that contains huge creatures i dont stand a chance. One of those decks is obviously the 7/10 Sundering Titan. This problem is easily delt with by resolving a Gilded Drake. Plyaing the drake and stealing the Titan is definitly game deciding. Thats one route to defeating the 7/10, but on the other hand its vey rare that someone will hard cast a Titan. They rely on The good old Goblin Welder, which is easily neutralized by the Grim-bos and razorfin hunters. So this in my opinion is a easy match-up against 7/10

Control slaver

Ive seen alot of different versions of this deck as of late. Some play Titans and some play the Platinum Angel. In any case the Titan and the Angel are easy targets to steal with the gilded drakes. After bouncing the drake back to my hand it leaves the opponent wide open for attack by his own devastating creature. Not only can i steal Titan and Angel but in many cases Goblin welder is a good target, welder tricks are always fun. To prevent being Slaved the second game you always resort to the 3 Null Rods in the side as well as the Fluxes. Again i think this is an easy match-up for this deck

Fish

Fish doesnt stand a chance against this deck. If i resolve any of the six pingers in my deck they're pretty much done. Not only that but by playing and bouncing Drake i can double the amount of pingers in my deck. Again, easy match-up

4cC

There is nothing better then being able to steal an Exalted Angel with something as trivial as a Gilded Drake. In the case that you dont get a chance to steal the angel you can nuetralize the threat with a Grim-bo before the angel has a chance to morph.

Stacks

Actually a decently hard match up for me. If they get Smokestack out early game im pretty much beat. The only chance i have is to get an early Flux out to match the Smokestack. Difficult but i win against this deck consistantly.

Draw7

Havean extremely hard time against this deck. After gae one i obviously side out the drakes due to the no creature content of the deck. Second game side in Null Rods and Flux with the occasional rebuild. The only problem is after siding out the Drakes i really have no kill condition. I have the Grim-bos but that takes forever and i wind up having a draw 9 which happened at Waterbury). So this is obviously not a good match-up for me

Thats the deck list and this is how i feel it works against the powerful decks being run in type 1. I would ask for any kind of constructive criticism.....thanks alot.....

[policehq]

Is Razorfin Hunter strictly better in the Fish match-up than Suq'Ata Firewalker? I doubt it.

Your sideboard tech against Draw-7 needs (!) to be Stifle or Hindering Touch. I believe, personally, that 2 Stifle could be maindecked over Daze.

With Stifle/Hindering Touch as an answer to Draw-7, you can focus your sideboard a little better against Stax, which is a problem deck. Rack and Ruin is significantly better than Energy Flux, as it provides an instant solution to any two problems (Trinisphere and Smokestack). Can you please explain some of your other sideboard choices a little better (1 Rebuild, 1 Misdirection, 1 Chain of Vapor)? I think that a fourth Null Rod would be helpful against Affinity, Slaver, Belcher, Zuran Orb, and other things.

Is Accumulated Knowledge really working that well for you? I think Impulse might be a better choice with the semi-rising popularity of Chains of Mephistopheles, opposing AK/Intuition engines, and its ability to dig through just as many cards in your deck.

I hope some of this helped.

Barry

[wuaffiliate]

Razorfin can be better, it's much easier to cast, it's a full turn faster, and comes in foil. I've run Razorfin often and it's very good, great removal, very good if you run sigil of sleep also. Walker and Razorfin have their pros and cons, it's all about what you want to take into account.

[policehq]

Razorfin can be better, it's much easier to cast, it's a full turn faster, and comes in foil. I've run Razorfin often and it's very good, great removal, very good if you run sigil of sleep also. Walker and Razorfin have their pros and cons, it's all about what you want to take into account.

I asked specifically about the Fish match-up, though. I don't believe that Razorfin's potential to activate once against opposing Grim Lavamancers is nearly as good as a Suq'Ata Firewalker's ability to stay on the board and clear your opponent's creature-base.

Barry

[TrixR4Kidz]

I was thinking for a great sideboard option, have you tried bloodmoon, it seems like it would work perfectly...

I also like the idea of impulse over the AK engine, it digs deeper and finds what you need at the moment.

I think you can definately cut out the chain of vapor in the sideboard, you have enough bounce in the maindeck already, and I also think stifle is a pretty good sideboard slot as well.

Is rebuild in the side really that great... It only really delays the game, you maybe should think about a third flux, or some rack and ruins, I don't really like rebuild, but if you wanna stick with that, why not make it a hurkly's recall, you don't really need to bounce your own moxen back.

Thats all I can think of for the moment, but I luv the deck

[policehq]

I just wanted to say that in testing, Unsummon has worked out better for me than Chain of Vapor because I hate it when they sacrifice a land to return their creature, which I have rightfully stolen, to their hand.

I don't think I fully explained why Hindering Touch is a good choice over Stifle in the sideboard. Since you're only running 4 FoW, and the TPS player is going to be running them as well as Duress, it's very important that you get copies of countering Tendrils of Agony. They can only FoW one copy of Hindering Touch, leaving you with at least 18 life that would have been lost otherwise. I think you should play 2 Stifle maindeck over Daze and 2 Hindering Touch in the sideboard.

Barry

[TheSpitefulWun]

I like the chain of vapor in the main board because it can bounce anything not just creatures. Sometimes i get in a jamb where i NEED to bounce something else, like say chalice for 2. Thats why i use chain of vapor instead of unsummon. As far as blood moon in my side board, that sounds like it could work considering the amount of basic lands in my deck. As far as removing daze for main deck stifle. Daze is in the deck to deal with first turn drops like trinisphere, if that drops im screwed. So i like to have two more free counters besides my Force of Wills. But anyways thanks for the advice and hope you like the deck.....

[Zelc]

I don't think Hindering Touch is viable as an answer to storm combo.  I don't see how a storm combo deck would not go off before turn 4 against Fish.  Additionally, Stifle is more useful than Hindering Touch, as it is useful against Dragon, fetchlands, and other stuff as well.

You probably also want the Null Rods and a Crucible of Worlds maindeck.  You could take out the Chain of Vapors and two Echoing Truths for them.  This gives you a good plan B and random wins against all kinds of decks, where bounce is good against only some decks.

[AngryPheldagrif]

If you fear storm-combo, run Null Rods main. Other than that, Stifle. Hindering Touch is awful. Unless you get a Land, Lotus draw, you're never going to be able to cast it before they would win, and they're just as likely to make you shuffle it back before then.

-Dan

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yea i'd probably cut 1 or 2 chains and 1 truth for 2 mainboard bloodmoons or mainboard crucibles.  As many people have mentioned before, crucible/wasteland randomly wins you games, and I think a mainboard bloodmoon would put a HUGE hurt on many decks right now, and it doesn't affect your deck at all.

[wuaffiliate]

Razorfin can be better, it's much easier to cast, it's a full turn faster, and comes in foil. I've run Razorfin often and it's very good, great removal, very good if you run sigil of sleep also. Walker and Razorfin have their pros and cons, it's all about what you want to take into account.

I asked specifically about the Fish match-up, though. I don't believe that Razorfin's potential to activate once against opposing Grim Lavamancers is nearly as good as a Suq'Ata Firewalker's ability to stay on the board and clear your opponent's creature-base.

Barry

Firewalker doesn't matter much in the fish mirror, unless you run multiples, which the mana base really doesnt handle well. If you plan to meet the mirror multiple times, you run a gren slash.

I hope you don't plan on resolving a firewalker too often in the mirror, it isn't an easy task.

[Devoted]

Ok, what i've understood u have a pretty good matchup against MUD decks. I dont know what ure going to sideboard energy flux against so i suggest ( against TPS he wont hav another upkeep if the flux would be a threat to him ) Chalice could help you more against more matchups than flux would.

[policehq]

Razorfin can be better, it's much easier to cast, it's a full turn faster, and comes in foil. I've run Razorfin often and it's very good, great removal, very good if you run sigil of sleep also. Walker and Razorfin have their pros and cons, it's all about what you want to take into account.

I asked specifically about the Fish match-up, though. I don't believe that Razorfin's potential to activate once against opposing Grim Lavamancers is nearly as good as a Suq'Ata Firewalker's ability to stay on the board and clear your opponent's creature-base.

Barry

Firewalker doesn't matter much in the fish mirror, unless you run multiples, which the mana base really doesnt handle well. If you plan to meet the mirror multiple times, you run a gren slash.

I hope you don't plan on resolving a firewalker too often in the mirror, it isn't an easy task.

His mana-base is very different from most fish builds though, having 16 blue mana sources. I think it can support 2 Firewalkers over 2 Razorfin Hunters. It is not only good against the mirror, but also against Workshop/Control Slaver and other Goblin Welder builds.

My good experiences with Hindering Touch come from playing mono-blue, but I agree that this mana-base could not support a Hindering Touch early enough in the game.

Barry

[TrixR4Kidz]

This is what I believe to be more ideal changes to improve your game 1 matchup against combo as well as slavery, your two worse matchups.

-2 Chain of vapor
-1 Gorilla Shaman

+3 Nullrod

-4 AK

+3 Impulse

+1 Timewalk....

That would open up some more sideboard options as well as help you out VERY much in the important matchups, I don't think the hit on the bounce should affect too much, especially when there is plenty enough draw/search to find a truth.  Also sided in bloodmoons, this deck can get pretty nasty, I love the way the deck is startin to shape up, and has great potential for a "suprise" deck to run in a big tourney....

[wuaffiliate]

combo and slaver are your worst matchup? since when? maybe if this list didn't suck it could win vs those two decks.

fish's worst matchups are infact dragon and anything with fast medium sized creatures (3/3+).

you want to know how to fix the deck? you can do a number of things.

1) Learn to play it well, play hundreds of games vs all archtypes vs GOOD players.

2) Play a good list.

3) Know when to play fish and when not to play fish.

2) Add green

[Thug]

@Wu

combo and slaver are your worst matchup? since when? maybe if this list didn't suck it could win vs those two decks.

fish's worst matchups are infact dragon and anything with fast medium sized creatures (3/3+).

you want to know how to fix the deck? you can do a number of things.

1) Learn to play it well, play hundreds of games vs all archtypes vs GOOD players.

2) Play a good list.

3) Know when to play fish and when not to play fish.

2) Add green

Maybe you could try to loook past the "normal" archetypes once.
It's clear that this list has more tools versus Dragon (hence, 6 bounce)
and creatures (drakes).

Compared to fish it did however drop some of the best toys against control and combo (null rod and standstill)

Your post is really adding nothing to this topic, so the onl thing you achieve by adding it is upsetting people like me who actually do care about the post quality in general.

---

@TheSpitefulWun

On to the deck, have you considered Waterfront Bouncer over maybe the chains, it gives you slightly more creatures (always a good thing) and more brokeness with Drake.
Ak seems a little out a place unless youre metagame is infested with decks running AK's as their main draw engine. I would really consider cutting them to make place for some maindeck Null Rods to help with your hardest matchups.

Draw-Seven really should be a good matchup for you after boarding, since FoW, Daze, Wastes, REB and Null Rods is one deck is a nightmare for draw-seven. And unless your opponent takes ages thinking about his decisions some 1 power creatures should be fast enough to kill them off (after all how much time do you need to draw a card, play a land, turn your creatures sideways and pass the turn?)

What's the reason you don't play with Time Walk and LoA, do you dislike the cards or do you simply not own them? They both deserve their place IMO.

Koen

[jazzykat]

Whatever happens timewalk must be fit into the deck (provided you have it or can proxy it). Your deck is still fishesque enough that tempo is perhaps the most important key to your victory. Think about getting an extra attack phase and drawing a card.... (even if that is all that it is good for in your deck) could easily win you the game.

[TrixR4Kidz]

combo and slaver are your worst matchup? since when? maybe if this list didn't suck it could win vs those two decks.

fish's worst matchups are infact dragon and anything with fast medium sized creatures (3/3+).

you want to know how to fix the deck? you can do a number of things.

1) Learn to play it well, play hundreds of games vs all archtypes vs GOOD players.

2) Play a good list.

3) Know when to play fish and when not to play fish.

2) Add green

First off, how is dragon this decks worse matchup, this isn't the typical "fish" build, it's a rogue deck.... The worse matchup is obviously combo pre-sideboard, the creatures are too incredibly slow for combo and it has no mainboard disruption against combo aside from forces and daze...

Like thug said, it has 6 mainboard bounce, I don't think dragon is going to be an issue, especially when BEB's are gonna be sided in as well.  And look at the deck, obviously slaver is one of it's worse matchups without the rods in there.  If a slaver gets off then you are going to watch them wreck your gameplan totally.... You didn't use very much logic in your post.  

If he wanted to netdeck orloves fish build then he would ok? He did well with this deck at waterbury and it still needs to have some things worked out, I see some potential with this deck with the way the current metagame is.

EDIT: I also think 4 is the correct number that comes after 3, not 2... sorry dude

[Devoted]

I think this deck was designed to beat the MUD decks and fish are'nt just beating it up ( no deck does ). But this deck might have a better chance? what do i know of that? but i guess that adding green to fish is just adding oxidize against MUD decks and then RAR is better because it dont give a instablie manabase. Green was basically added to fish to have a good mirror?

combo and slaver are your worst matchup? since when? maybe if this list didn't suck it could win vs those two decks.

fish's worst matchups are infact dragon and anything with fast medium sized creatures (3/3+).

you want to know how to fix the deck? you can do a number of things.

1) Learn to play it well, play hundreds of games vs all archtypes vs GOOD players.

2) Play a good list.

3) Know when to play fish and when not to play fish.

2) Add green

[TheSpitefulWun]

Thanks alot for all the replies. I appreciate the advice and if anymoe has any other good ideas please feel free to let me know....thank you