[Article] Meandeck's Angels: A Primer on Meandeck Oath

[Smmenen]

We debated using maindeck removal back and forth and then we decided that our FOURTEEN counterspells would buy enough tempo that they wouldn't be needed.

[Grollub]

We debated using maindeck removal back and forth and then we decided that our FOURTEEN counterspells would buy enough tempo that they wouldn't be needed.

That is my point; against the three deck types I listed all of them share the feat of being able to more or less play around counter magic (Overwhelm-tactic, utility cards like Aether Vial, and disruption in the likes of Cabal Therapy (works nicely with Spirit tokens by the way)/Duress), and in some of the cases the all-time active counter magic drops to twelve – Misdirection will be of limited use and a first turn Vial + Duress could be quite a beating in Affinity. Of course I realize, that clogging the deck with control spells and removal is not the way to go, just merely asking if it would make the deck distort too much from the original game plan and thusly warrant a completely re-design, I haven’t had the joy of playing with this particular form of Oath in real life so please, take some of my concerns with a grain of salt.


EDIT: This is too small to warrant it's own post, have Cabal Therapy abuse of 1/1 tokens been a problem? I'm thinking of a game where Oath isn't cast before you have to activate the Orchard for something else?
--Just wanted to know if I'm overrating Cabal Therapy in my current "mind deckbuilding" phase. (You have to do something to keep you occupied when at work, hehe)

[Smmenen]

We aren't trying to counter all of their threats.  We are using counterspells to create tempo (i.e buying time) - not to stop their plan.  

If you can go turn one or two oath with a few counters afterward, that's all you neeed.  The way you beat counters IS by overwhemling you, but that takes time and can't be done in a single turn.  Oath only needs two swings to win most of the time.

[Malhavoc]

We debated using maindeck removal back and forth and then we decided that our FOURTEEN counterspells would buy enough tempo that they wouldn't be needed.

When the opponent is just casting a lot of minor threats, our counterspell will surely gain us the tempo needed. However, if a major threat passes, we have lost. I'm talking about any of the cards I've talked about in my previous posts, first of all chalice of the void. Are you really thinking you will always have a first turn FoW to counter a first turn Chalice for 2? Even if it can happen, a chalice can also pass through our counterspells a bit later in the game. And I could say the same thing against a first turn welder which ends up putting into play a platinum angel. Even if post-side we have something to cope with that, are you really giving up the first game just because you did not find the place for at least one removal? You can't really think to be able to counter all the deadly spells you can bump against. Counter most of them: yes. But not counter every spell, particularly the bad ones after you've maybe already used counterspells against some baits thrown at you.

[zmx]

If while you are Oathing you see a Gaea's Blessing, the Blessing will trigger, but will not resolve until the Oathing completes.

Just a note :

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer creatures than any of his or her opponents, the player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard

So, if you see a Gaea's Blessing, nothing trigger the card are not in your graveyard, it is just "revealed" at this time.

When Oath completes, the card are put in the graveyard, and then it trigger.(then resolve)

Isn't it ?

[Revvik]

The Blessing goes on the stack, but does not resolve until the Oath trigger resolves - netting you the creature.

Thus, creature goes into play, THEN you shuffle your graveyard into your library.

[zmx]

The Blessing goes on the stack, but does not resolve until the Oath trigger resolves - netting you the creature.

Thus, creature goes into play, THEN you shuffle your graveyard into your library.

I'm not sure ....

You just reveal the card when you "search" for a creature, if you reveal a Blessing, nothing append. The blessing is triggered when the card go to the graveyard.

After you reveal a creature you put the card revealed in the graveyard and THEN the blessing trigered. The cards goes in the graveyard at same time you put the creature into play.

[Revvik]

that's technically what happens, I usually just explain it the way I did for simplicity.  <shrug>

[Toad]

We debated using maindeck removal back and forth and then we decided that our FOURTEEN counterspells would buy enough tempo that they wouldn't be needed.

When the opponent is just casting a lot of minor threats, our counterspell will surely gain us the tempo needed. However, if a major threat passes, we have lost. I'm talking about any of the cards I've talked about in my previous posts, first of all chalice of the void. Are you really thinking you will always have a first turn FoW to counter a first turn Chalice for 2? Even if it can happen, a chalice can also pass through our counterspells a bit later in the game. And I could say the same thing against a first turn welder which ends up putting into play a platinum angel. Even if post-side we have something to cope with that, are you really giving up the first game just because you did not find the place for at least one removal? You can't really think to be able to counter all the deadly spells you can bump against. Counter most of them: yes. But not counter every spell, particularly the bad ones after you've maybe already used counterspells against some baits thrown at you.

Decklists are designed for a particular metagame. This one was designed for a metagame where little to no Chalice of the Void were expected, and where people were supposed to pack a lot of Welder hate, throwing the Drain Slaver builds to the middle brackets. So the fact that this build does not deal with Chalice of the Void or Platinum Angel maindeck is not relevant at all.

Magic is not all about netdecking.

On the Gaea's Blessing trigger issue. The Blessing triggers during the resolution of the Oath ability (when the cards you reveal are put in the graveyard), but only goes on the stack when the Oath ability is completely resolved.

[Malhavoc]

Decklists are designed for a particular metagame. This one was designed for a metagame where little to no Chalice of the Void were expected, and where people were supposed to pack a lot of Welder hate, throwing the Drain Slaver builds to the middle brackets. So the fact that this build does not deal with Chalice of the Void or Platinum Angel maindeck is not relevant at all.

While you are absolutely right on the fact that the deck could do well in such an enviroment (as, in fact, it did), I thought here we were discussing not only how good the deck can be in such a meta, but how good the deck can be in general. In other countries, in other turnments, in other metagames having nothing against those threats is not a good option. I have nothing against how the deck was built for SCG, it was a right choice and the results say that clearly. Just saying that for the deck to be used with good result worldwide, it needs some general tweaks. Of course other little tweaks would need to be made from place to place according to the metagame, but the idea itself of the usefulness of maindeck removals is something more than a metagame choice. Not-running-removal WAS the metagame choice, IMHO.

[Covetous]

As Toad alluded to, this version of the deck is probably not the one to netdeck.  It has serious issues game 1 vs. certain decks (although that's what a SB is for).  So, for an given metagame this version might be very good or horribly bad.  In fact, I'm not sure if this exact build of this deck will ever be good again because now that people have seen what an immense beating it is, they will attempt to tech against it. And this deck, with its lack of removal, could be very easy to tech against.  So, in order to be successful with this type of deck in the future, you will need to re-metagame it to wherever and whenever you intend to play it.  Some of the basic aspects of the deck will remain strong, but some others will need to change in order for the deck to adapt to future hate.  The idea of countering all relevant threats until you can win is not always effective, especially against welder decks sporting countermagic of their own.  Platinum angel completely houses up on this version of the deck, and once people realize this, they will play her and the deck will need to either adapt or always win post-board games.  In summary--don't netdeck this beast, just use it as a starting place for your own metagamed version tailored to what you expect to see.

[Ghost]

If you were to play this deck in a metagame where you felt needed removal/MD answers to chalice what would you play?

The first thought I had was engineered explosives. It kills welder and chalice of the void. It also kills things like lacky and oposing oaths. On the other hand, it's a bit slow and against some decks you won't want them.

I've been finding misdirection to not be too great, would cutting 2 misdirections for 2 explosives be a terible idea?

[ctthespian]

If one like myself were to unearth my creation of UW Landstill, what hope woiuld Oath have to defeat it?  UW Still runs equal if not more of a control aspect and has 4 (8 actually forgot disks) main deck removal cards to clear the board of your creatures.  

Pristine angel is in the board to help negate STPs for game 2 and three, however UW still can bring in more enchantment hate, extracts and possibly other means to ensure angel never becomes a threat.

With recent metagame shifts UW Landstill may actually be a contender again in tournaments.

-Keith

[jpmeyer]

Forbidden Orchard?

[Covetous]

I have been considering one of several LandStill decks (including UR, UG, UW, URw, UWg and URg), but the problem I keep returning to is the much-maligned Crucible of Owning Landstill in the Bum.  Either you play it yourself, which is contrary to your plan of smashing all permanents with Disk, or you get eaten alive by it because you need non-basic lands to win (or at least enough mana to cycle DoJ for a bunch of dorks).  Added to this is the fact that Oath doesn't need for you to actually play creatures in order to Oath up fat--Orchard is the reason the deck is back and LandStill can't get around Orchard any better than any other deck.  Cards like Seal of Cleansing and Annul, STP, Chain of Vapor, Engineered E and Nevvy are good vs. Oath but I'd have to playtest a lot before I was convinced that UW LandStill is good enough to actually do any better in tournaments than it has currently been doing.  Let us know how it turns out.

[BennyR502]

I was curious as to why the ommision of LoA?  I didn't see it explained, seems like it would be a decent fit, especially in control mirrors and also acts as a waste target instead of orchards.

[Exalted Teacher]

Hi! I have a question regarding the sideboard-tech against Welder-decks. Since there apparently are eight cards in the board which could come in against these (3x Flux, 3x G-Seal, 2x C-Magic) I was just wondering what to take out for them. Besides the two misdirections I don´t have the slightest idea.
As I didn´t read the whole thread I´m sorry if this question already occured.
thx

[Saucemaster]

...omission of LoA....

You don't need LoA to beat aggro, and it's just a liability against combo and prison.  So we'd be talking about control here.  

First, let's remember that we can only fit in so many off-colored sources.  We're talking mostly about cutting a Wasteland at this point.

So, which control decks are we talking about?  Against 4cC, you usually beat them anyway, and your primary strategy is to play the beatdown, and punch an Oath through their counters.  The more time you give them the more answers they have a chance to find.  Since you will almost always be able to resolve Oath when you want to anyway (14 counters!), LoA is pretty much win-more.  Just make sure you can turn off their LoA, or it might be hard to drop Oath and protect your Angel.  Wasteland gets the nod.

Against Control Slaver, the problem generally has nothing to do with outcountering them, resolving Oath, etc.  The problem is answering Platinum Angel, and to a lesser extent answering their Welders.  LoA doesn't help here.  Wastes don't help much either.  About even, I'd say.  Maybe a minor edge for LoA, but again, you want to play the beatdown here and win before they get access to Platz.  You don't have time to abuse LoA.

Against the mirror (this is the big one), it is ALL about Orchards.  Waste gets a HUGE plus here over LoA.

MonoU?  You crush them already.  LoA is better than Waste, but this is a win-more situation.

Waste gets the nod.  Cutting a spell for LoA would only make sense in a slim minority of your matches.  The basic problem is that you want to play aggro-control and rarely have time for LoA.

Good question, though.

Hi! I have a question regarding the sideboard-tech against Welder-decks. Since there apparently are eight cards in the board which could come in against these (3x Flux, 3x G-Seal, 2x C-Magic) I was just wondering what to take out for them. Besides the two misdirections I don´t have the slightest idea.
As I didn´t read the whole thread I´m sorry if this question already occured.
thx

Which Welder-based decks?  How many you side in depends entirely on what decks we're talking about.  Stax is different from 5/3 is different from Control Slaver.

[BennyR502]

Thanks for the reply Saucemaster, once I started testing it I came to the same conclusion, in fact, my LoA hasn't been useful since I got it, it could just be my metagame though.
One card I included that I haven't seen discussed, (maybe I just missed it), was crop rotation.  Since it is all about the orchards or waste, crop rotation seems like it'd be a great include.

[Exalted Teacher]

...which Welder-decks....

First of all Stax but to a lesser extent also Slaver.

[Zherbus]

I'm pretty certain Slaver and Stax are fundimentally different enough to warrant a different sideboarding method.

[Exalted Teacher]

Don´t get me wrong; I didn´t want to compare these. I just wanted to give a point to start....
so what about Stax??

[Jacob Orlove]

For Stax, I brought in 3 Energy Flux, 2 B2B, and 1 Pristine for 1 Spirit, 2 Misdirections, 1 Impulse, and 2 Intuition (although 2 impulse/1 intuition might be the right call if your intuitions show up less often than mine).

With the rise in 5-color artifact builds packing enchantment hate, though, this plan probably needs revising.

Versus Control Slaver, the plan was to bring in Control Magics and Ground Seals.

[Malhavoc]

In a similar built I play (UBG, but really similar in many ways), I've found Woodripper to be a deadly sideboard card against stax and similar builts. Once oath resolves and our opponents has a creature in play, it's instant win. I've even managed to hardcast it sometimes after a drain. It works in that case like a rack&ruin for 3 artifacts. My only dubt is that maybe it's just overkill, since when we are oathing we are already winning, but I've found many times that oathing another creature would have not be enough to win, maybe because I was under smokestack and tangle or threatened by a karn and a bunch of big animated artifacts.