[Deck] Semi-powered 4CC

[Aaron]

Hi, all!   I've been lurking for a while, but I'm looking for a bit of feedback on a partially powered 4CC deck (there are only sanctioned tournaments around here, for the most part).

4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
2 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
2 Daze
2 Fire/Ice
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist
1 Decree of Justice
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Exalted Angel
1 Platinum Angel

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Null Rod
1 Damping Matrix
-----
Total: 60

Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
2 Stifle
1 Rack and Ruin
2 REB
2 BEB
1 Plains
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice
1 Gorilla Shaman

-------------

Basically, the way I converted this to budget (haha, relatively speaking, that is) was:

1) Add Mana Crypt and fourth dual lands (as opposed to the three of each type usually run) to replace the Moxes and Lotus

2) Replaced Mana Drains with 2 Daze and 2 Mana Leak

3) Fill in other spots with metagame stuff

My metagame changes weekly, and all players are very competent. However, most prevalent, are decks reliant on artifacts. MUD and Stax are seen often, hence the Damping Matrix to hose Goblin Welder. A couple other very predictable decks are FCG and Discard/Sacrifice, which I board in Trinisphere and Chalice (the discard/sac is hosed by Chalice for two) to deal with. The Null Rod is also infinitely useful to kill Ravager Affinity, which sadly, does show up more than it should.

I would like to know what could use improvement, and yes, I think the sideboard is pretty weak.

ANY constructive advice will be MOST appreciated!

Thanks a bunch!  

[Necrologia]

4cc isn't viable when you're missing so many cards. Without drains or moxen to accelerate you, aggro will run you over and fish will out draw you. Let alone what happens against fully powered decks.

If you really want to run this though, I'd cut the tinker. For fully powered 4cc decks to run Tinker, they usually throw in Mox Emerald as extra tinker food. Your deck doesn't even have half as many cheap artifacts as a typical 4cc list, so it's going to be dead way too often.

Daze is also really bad in 4cc. It simply doesn't have anything to take advantage of the early tempo, and late game these are dead.

Cut the Decree for a 3rd Exhalted. They're key for winning the aggro match up, and you don't have drains to sink mana into it.

That's what pops out at me right now, as late as it is. I'd really recommend looking at fish or something though. It's much less reliant on power to win, and it looks like you already have most of the "expensive" cards in it, Force, Volcanics, etc. Good luck.

[MTG_Djinn]

looking at fish

I would agree here. You need the power and Drains to run 4cc.

On the other hand, whats you meta? I mean is it filled with power or is it more like the cards you have? I thing you can play 4cc if your meta issent filled with power. Might do some changes in the deck if you still want to play it.

Damping Matrix:
If you are really scared of Welder, who only 1 Matrix? Or at least some in the SB? issent 1 MD to random?
Its the same with Null Rod, deside what way you want to go and go all the way. I think you are shooting in 2 directions with half the strenght. See my point?


Mana:
What do you do if a B2B hits the table or a Blood Moon? (Try to fit Cunning Wish in the deck). You need atleast 2-3 basis lands, because you must expect a strip and you cant expect to get Crucible of Worlds down evey time.

Tinker
I dont know about this one. You can to Island+Crypt = Darksteel Colossus turn 1 and that is really nice against aggro. But aganist control its someting else.¨

hope you can use what I said to something.

[Komatteru]

4CC doesn't really work too well if you're missing a bunch of cards, like power.  I can't imagine trying it without Drains, but at least use Counterspell instead of Daze and Mana Leak if you don't have them.  Daze is utterly horrible for you if you have no power (it's not good if you do have it either).  The deck needs too much mana and you can't afford to take a land back to your hand.  The only decks that can afford to do that really are Fish and GAT, both of which are tempo-based decks that need little mana (the tempo of stopping an opponent's spell is greater for them than the tempo lost from losing a land drop).

Cunning Wish is typically a staple in 4CC, but it's not very good without Drains and power.  Its effectiveness in powered 4CC is doubled by the fact that it serves as a very nice Drain sink.  The problem is that the entire draw engine is generally fed by Mana Drain, like in 'tog.  Scrying, Fact or Fiction, Cunning Wish, etc. are all typically cast off Mana Drain mana.  Even the win conditions (both Decree and Exalted) are fed by Mana Drains.  I think it might be possible to build something resembling 4CC without the power and have it be fairly successful, but having to swap out Counterspells for Mana Drains just kills the deck.

Your welcome to give it a try, but there are certain things you cannot do.  You cannot afford to run a full set of Wastelands if you don't have the power.  The Wastelands get in the way of colored land drops, which causes problems for you.  Of course, the problem is that if you can't run all the strip effects, you lose a bit of the deck's thunder.  If you want to play semi-powered 4CC, you need to completely rework the deck.  If you want, you can PM me and I can throw out some ideas for you.

[Aaron]

Thanks for the responses, guys!  

Perhaps Fish is the way to go. I have almost all of the cards for it, anyway. My only concern is that like I said, my meta is mainly MUD and Stax crap. Does Fish really have any hope against this?  

(as for the power, a lot of people have a couple pieces like me, and 1 or 2 people have it all, but in contrast, many people have none)

[SpencerForHire]

You have a better chance against MUD and Stax if your running the WTF/r version of Fish then the UR Fish or any other varient.  Oxidize/artifact mutation is your friend!

[jazzykat]

Well you could always look at EBA, I think it runs a little better unpowered than 4cc.

[Denney The Third]

IN a tournament with skilled players like you say you have, whom are also powered; A non-powered 4cc deck just doesnt have the gusto to win. You get outsped, outdrawn, and clobbered with fast creatures. Also without 4 mana drains to give your mana a nice help me up you'll be even slower.
Try another deck, jsut not fish. You'd probably be better sticking with the deck you listed then with fish.

[HuntedWumpus]

If you are looking for a budget deck the fairs pretty well against Workshops you could take a peek at U/g Madness.

Use the search function and look for a tread started by JP on UG madness. I remember being pretty impressed by what seems to be a harmless deck when I piloted it in a tourney. It has MD null rods and free critters which helps.  

Until you slowly win/purchase your power like most of us (5/9 + LOA WooT!) 4cc is not a deck for you because of the reasons previously mentioned.

-good luck

[KnTrElL]

I think that if u dont have MANADRAIN u cant play this deck, also if u dont have power9 to acelerate the deck, here in chile I play mi 4cc with skeletal scrying

[Aaron]

Just a quick report:

Thanks to everyone for advice, especially JDizzle, who sent me some great PMs. Thanks, bud.  

I played a Tinker 4cc deck as optimzed as I could get it last weekend in a 10 proxy, 20-something person Mox Emerald tourney, and missed the Top 8 by a hair. I was 2-1, but then got wiped out by Squees that I couldn't get off the board in round 4. Props to my opponent for owning me, and being a good sport about it.  

At the tourney, I got stuff for Fish and Oath, so I'll definitely report back on what turns out to be successful in the Workshop meta.

If anybody wants JDizzle's analysis of this deck, I will post it. It's a good read.

[Komatteru]

No prob.  Glad to help anytime.

What did you end up finally running?  I'm quite curious.  I really forsaw not having Drains as a problem, but, again, I'm used to a very powered environment.  It seems to have worked out pretty well for you.

[Aaron]

No prob.  Glad to help anytime.

What did you end up finally running?  I'm quite curious.  I really forsaw not having Drains as a problem, but, again, I'm used to a very powered environment.  It seems to have worked out pretty well for you.

Note that it was 10-proxy, so Drains went in. I had artifact hate in place of Cunning Wishes, which I think was a huge mistake. I did play against T1 Ravager deck, which I completely crushed, but had I put in Wishes I could have most likely won the last match for the T8 (and probably top 4'd, since I would have played some Fish crap in the first match)

So sorry, nothing too experimental happened, but I got such an advantage by draining for 2-3 that I will NOT play the deck again without them.

And Tinker is staying.  

[Doozer]

Hey everyone! Man it's been so long sence my last post. Anyway dude, don't let these guys get you down. You CAN play this deck with missing card. It just might not work as well. But I was in the same boat. If you want to play this deck, I recommend you saving all your pennies and playing a deck on the side.(I played Mono U for alonggg time before I was able to make this deck. I think Mono U is the best for a person who want to play 4cc because it more like 4cc than fish is)

Sence your Meta changes every week, which so does mine    , you can freely use an old deck list or even try something diffrent from eveyone else. As for the rest of your deck, I'd add atlest one Island. The one Island has saved me so much.  You might also try a third city of brass droping a dual. I personaly want to try this but I've been really busy with school and work. I noted that you are useing a type of tinker 4cc. I am using three angels and they are working fine for quite some time.

Well...thats my two cents. If you need anything else, just shoot me a PM.

[Aaron]

Well, obviously I like the deck, but it's not really a matter of letting anybody get me down. The deck does work without the Drains somewhat better than people realize, but a lot is left to be deisred. However, my store recently dropped sanctioned tournaments, so now they're all 10-proxy.

Problem solved.  :lol:

Doozer, can you post your decklist?

[Doozer]

//NAME: 4cc
SB:  1 Damping Matrix
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Fire/Ice
SB:  2 Flametongue Kavu
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
        3 Exalted Angel
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Mystical Tutor
        4 Brainstorm
        2 Cunning Wish
        3 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Balance
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Fire/Ice
        1 Crucible of Worlds
        4 Flooded Strand
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        2 City of Brass
        1 Island
        2 Volcanic Island
        3 Underground Sea
        3 Tundra
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet

Uh, I'm think this is my current list but I haven't tinked with my deck sence the end of the summer. I currently don't use any proxies.(Like it really matters)

I do remember that I wanted to add another City of Brass to help the mana base maybe cutting a dual. Also, mess around with the Skeletal Scrying/Cunning Wish config. This however, Is just for my meta.

Hope this helps!

-Doozer