Phyrexian Dreadnought

[Nibble]

Okay, I'm pretty sure I understand well enough how Dreadnought works, but what has been bugging me is exactly why it works that way.

As far as I know, this is how his ability effectively works:

- Dreadnought is trying to come into play.
- You choose a number of creatures, either until you have no creatures left, or you've reached at least 12 power.
- Sacrifice the chosen creatures.
- If the creatures' power was 12 or greater, Dreadnought comes into play. If not, he doesn't.

What I'm not clear on is why you must sacrifice creatures even if you cannot fulfill the 12 power requirement. Correct me if I'm wrong (though I swear I remember seeing this somewhere), but I believe that's how it works - if you have a Grizzly Bear out, and try to play Dreadnought, you have to sacrifice the Bear, even though there's no chance of reaching the 12 power. So, am I wrong on this? Or if not, why is it this way?

[Jebus]

That is correct.  You must sacrifice creatures even if it won't total 12 power.

And the reason is, when performing an action from an effect, you always do as much as possible.

Like with Hymn to Tourach.  If the targeted player only has one card in their hand, they still discard it, even though they cannot discard two cards.  You always do as much as possible.

[Nibble]

Alright, I guess that makes sense. I was thinking more strictly in terms of can and can't, I knew Dreadnought felt different, but couldn't figure out what. But the fact that the action can be partially completed makes it work differently than Edict when you have no creature, or Hymn with zero cards in hand.

I'm not terribly fond of it because it strays from the original wording (where it was completely optional to sacrifice anything), but I guess this card was enough of a problem that something had to be done.

Thanks!

[Jebus]

Alright, I guess that makes sense. I was thinking more strictly in terms of can and can't, I knew Dreadnought felt different, but couldn't figure out what. But the fact that the action can be partially completed makes it work differently than Edict when you have no creature, or Hymn with zero cards in hand.

It still seems you are thinking about it wrong.

You always do as much as you can, if possible.

Of course you can't do anything if there is no creature for Edict or zero cards to discard to Hymn.  But, if anything were there, you'd perform the action as much as possible.

If I play Barter in Blood and I have only one creature, I can't sacrifice two, but I must still do as much as possible.  It's no different with Dreadnought.

It isn't an issue of can and can't if you can at least do some of the action.

If there are no creatures to sacrifice to Dreadnought, you do nothing.  But, if there are creatures, you do what you can.

[Nibble]

It still seems you are thinking about it wrong.

You always do as much as you can, if possible.

Of course you can't do anything if there is no creature for Edict or zero cards to discard to Hymn.  But, if anything were there, you'd perform the action as much as possible.

If I play Barter in Blood and I have only one creature, I can't sacrifice two, but I must still do as much as possible.  It's no different with Dreadnought.

It isn't an issue of can and can't if you can at least do some of the action.

If there are no creatures to sacrifice to Dreadnought, you do nothing.  But, if there are creatures, you do what you can.

Oh no, I know how it works now. Maybe I was unclear; I was trying to say that when I had been thinking about Dreadnought before, I was comparing it to strict can and can't cases, where you can either complete the full action or can't do anything (like I mentioned, Edict with no creatures and Hymn with zero cards).

What didn't occur to me, but you pointed out in your original reply, was that actions must be partially completed if possible - Mind Twist for 5 on an opponent with 2 cards in hand, or a Wildfire when someone has 3 lands in play, both do as much of the effect as possible with current conditions.

Originally, I was looking at it something like this: Dreadnought says to sacrifice "any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater," and if you didn't have "any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater," it'd be like an Edict on someone with no creatures - you don't have the ability to pay for the effect, so you simply cannot, and don't sacrifice anything.

But now I understand that's not the case, and you have to do as much as possible. Don't worry, I've gotten the point.