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Author Topic: Why Type 1 Takes Little Skill...What???  (Read 1826 times)
Moxlotus
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« on: November 19, 2004, 12:41:40 am »

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8452

Is it just me or is the author saying that combo decks that kill turn 2 take little skill because the game is over so fast?  Is he saying that Sui or Sligh when it was legal in Standard is more complex than Doomsday or Meandeath?  Has the author even played Type 1 lately?  Also notice that most of his questions that people answered he asked several years ago.


Note: I was the one he quoted at the top from the SCG forums.  I later recanted my statement in a later post because I forgot about FEB.

EDIT: http://www.starcitygames.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=270295&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=

SCG forums where he is defending his article.

Quote
In any case, Sligh was almost certainly a less complex deck. Playing it was probably more skill intensive[than Meandeath or Doomsday}.


Apparently Sligh is more skill intensive than Meandeath or Doomsday...
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Komatteru
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2004, 01:31:07 am »

Quote
As to how skill-testing a format is, the length of games must be considered...rrectly picking your spot over the course of many grueling turns will be the difference between winning and not.


He doesn't directly say Vintage takes less skill, but he does mention the relatively short duration by the count of turns in a Vintage match.  If you assume that the same number of decisions made per turn, you're much more likely to screw up over the course of the game if you play 10 turns instead of 3.

However, what he does not consider is what goes on each turn.  According to the DCI Personal Information Center, in the past 6 months, I have played in 53 Vintage matches, and 6 or so of those have gone to time and ended in a draw (~11%).  I have played 44 constructed matches, and not one of those has ended in a draw as a result of time.  I've played a lot more of both in unsanctioned events, but I'd imagine that the numbers would play out as similiar.  So, why is it that the format with all the turn 2 kills goes to time a lot more than the "slow format with the long games"?  Why is it that games with less turns take so much longer than games with 4-5 times as many turns?

Here's a Turn 1 in Standard:
Player 1: Land, go.
Player 2: Land, go.

Occasionally, things get "dicey" and someone plays a Chrome Mox and something that costs 2 on the first turn, but Affinity is really the only deck that consistenly does something other than play a land on the first turn.

Consider a Turn 1 in Vintage:
Player 1: Land, some Moxes
Player 2: Mox, Land, Duress.  In response, player 1 casts Brainstorm, spends 2 minutes figuring out what to put back.  Player 2 spends 2 minutes examining Player 1's hand to figure out what is the best card to take, figuring all the possibilites and what each card there can do.

One thing I've noticed is that there's not a lot of responding in Type 2.  You do stuff on your main phase and play very little on your opponent's turn.  While in Vintage, you almost spend as much time casting spells on your opponent's turn as you do on your own.  When I play T2, I constantly have to tell my opponent's to slow down and give me a chance.  It's almost assumed that no one will ever respond to everything.  On the other side, my opponents always look at me strangely when I give them like 10 seconds before I actually carry out the resolution of my spell.  When I played Ironworks combo in T2, it wasn't uncommon for me to cast Thirst for Knowledge in response to something, then Mana Leak their spell afterwards.  I think I was the only one doing that.  My opponents' would look at me like "Oh, yeah, I forgot you can do that."  This gets into ground that we don't need to get into, but, in general, Standard players are as bad at manipulating the stack as Vintage players are at combat.

The number of decisions made in a Vintage turn is a lot higher, and that makes things more complex.  So much more just happens.  Add in the fact that the format does not forgive mistaks as much, and I think we've made our case that Vintage is terribly difficult to play.  You can screw up on turn 3 in Standard because you're going to get 10 more after that to correct your mistake.  If you screw up badly on turn 10 in Standard, you're going to lose.  Similarly, if you screw up on turn 2 in Vintage, you're in trouble, because you're only looking at getting 3-4 more turns after that.  Mr. Flores seems to neglect this.  He assumes that more turns equals more decisions.  In addition, he also fails to consider that over the course of more turns, you get more chances to correct your past mistakes.  Your opponent is also just as likely to make as many mistakes as you over the course of that game as well.

To address the luck/brokenness issue, yeah, it happens.  But it happens in other formats as well, but it's not as extreme because the cards aren't as powerful.  Affinity is regarded as a very difficult deck to play, but it's all too common to see turn 1 Disciple, turn 2 Ravager, turn 3 Plating, game over 4th turn.  Despite being terribly broken a lot of the time, Affinity has a reputation for complexity.  Now tell me, how is what I just described any different from turn 1 Workshop, Trinisphere?  It's not.  Our game breaking play was compressed into the first turn instead of spread out over the course of 4.

EDIT:
After reading the comments from Jacob on the Star City Thread, I'd like to simultaneouly agree and disagree.  I think that Vintage can be the most forgiving format at times.  If you screw up and then topdeck something amazing the next turn, you can more than make up for it.  However, this takes several things into account:
1) Your opponent didn't make you pay dearly for your mistake with something broken of his own.
2) You actually draw that something broken.

Granted, with all the broken cards floating around, the probability that #2 occurs is decently high.  Whether or not it can correct for your mistake depends on what you did and what you drew.  However, that probability works against you just as much as it works for you.  Your opponent is just as likely to draw something broken the next turn, and the probabilty that he holds something that makes you suffer horribly for your mistake is also quite high.  In that respect, the format does not forgive mistakes.

In addition, if you can screw up 20% of your turns and still win, Vintage allows you to screw up once, assuming a game of 5 turns.  Standard allows you to botch 2-3, assuming a game length of 10-15 turns.  It's a lot harder to screw up twice than it is to screw up once.
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2004, 01:37:04 am »

The game is compressed in t1, but has as many decisions, if not more than othe formats.  This makes it more skill intensive becuase you are working with imperfect information in a very short amount of time to make a key decision.
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Clown of Tresserhorn
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2004, 03:55:00 am »

Problem is, there are SO MANY cards in type 1 that can swing the game at any given second. In this light, I can see where type 1 is more "luck based" than skill based. Any idiot can topdeck a yawgmoth's will and lock you out of the game. Granted, the same can be said about ravager in type 2, but other than that, most decks can't go broken (well, maybe KCI). In constructed, a small misplay (such as fucking up your combat math with rav., or playing something too early) can cost you the game. I think all formats are equally challenging. However, I definitely disagree that sligh was harder to play than meandeath.

On a different note, I'll echo his feeling that FEB was the most difficult deck to play. I would play the deck for months and still suck at it, and then watch my friend Dan pick it up and wreck house. Some of the timing/stacking tricks he did were simply AMAZING.

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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2004, 08:02:48 am »

Quote from: Clown of Tresserhorn

On a different note, I'll echo his feeling that FEB was the most difficult deck to play. I would play the deck for months and still suck at it, and then watch my friend Dan pick it up and wreck house. Some of the timing/stacking tricks he did were simply AMAZING.


Staying on that side note, I have to say that watching someone play a complicated deck well and seeing plays you'd never even have considered is one of the most satisfying, exciting and motivating experiences ever. It's like watching pros play snooker and then feeling like you suddenly understand that much more about ball pace, spin, positioning and angles that you could go out and play a really good game. It makes you want to go and play that deck and play it well. I think this is what truly fascinates me enough to want to play complex decks - they're all about decisions, chances and solving complex puzzles on every turn.

I think a lot of pros consider creature combat and aggro as the be-all end-all of complex decks because of a number of factors, mostly related to their normal M:tg life. They play a lot of limited which is about creatures and racing the opponent. Type 2 and Extended have traditionally been quite creature-oriented, and especially so more recently. Also, in those formats, straight aggro is almost always one viable option (which a lot of pros might choose if they feel like it). Also, like many people have pointed out, they haven't played enough type 1 or played it recently enough to have a full understanding of it. Anecdotal evidence can be seen if you watch the video coverage of the Pro Tour Columbus top 8, especially regarding the commentary. The commentators were amazed when one player Cunning Wished into a string of spells like it was so complicated and they'd never seen anything like that before. It left me shaking my head, since thats a situation I've encountered in almost every game of Magic I have played in the last god-knows how many years.
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2004, 08:41:22 am »

I think the major problem with Mike's arguments is that he fails to recognize just how much thought and planning needs to be put into those first few turns for such an amazingly difficult deck as Meandeath or Doomsday.  Sure, the game will be over very quickly (in terms of turns), but the amount of processing a person must do to successfully arrive at a winning sequence of plays is astounding with today's combo decks.  It isn't like with Long where you could trip up and just win anyway.  These days every single play is critical, and if you mess up just once you will almost certainly lose regardless of the power level of the rest of your deck.  

Meanwhile, no non-combo deck crams quite as much into those first couple of turns; so while the high power level of vintage will cause more swings than other formats see, the conclusion he draws is not as strong as he would have you believe.  Does luck have more of an impact in vintage than in other formats? Probably, but like in all other things, ours is a format of extremes.  While we have the most insane topdecks of any format, we also have the most mindbendingly difficult play situations and decks you will ever see.
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2004, 09:33:51 am »

Type 1 involves skills like tutor chains and combo math, while the other formats require creature combat and resource management.  Honestly, I think that resource management is the most difficult skill because a lot of it is very subtle and easy to miss.
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2004, 10:03:13 am »

Quote from: Smmenen
The game is compressed in t1, but has as many decisions, if not more than othe formats.  This makes it more skill intensive becuase you are working with imperfect information in a very short amount of time to make a key decision.


Isn't making decisions on imperfect information considered to be guessing?  With things like workshop and redundant combo in an environment you do have alot of things happening all at once, but most of the decisions you make are either non interactive, or are very binary.  Force of Will or no?

After you get down the ability to make the "right play,"  high level magic "skill" has more to do with controlling your tells than anything.  In a format where a game can literally be sealed by a first turn play.  Tells and reads have very little to do with anything.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2004, 10:06:18 am »

As someone who played alot of sligh and burninator, and also some combo decks I'd like to point out 2 things.
one is that on the whole sligh is easier to play. The Second point is the skill needed to play sligh cunningly. Alot of type 1 players say to just throw your deck in their face. Howvere you need to know which men get toasted, when your opponnent is going to counter your burn. And you need to keep a running tally of how many important men you have burned, which and how many of your burn spells you have cast, and how many of which counters ure opponent has left.
Sligh takes some work.
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2004, 01:04:56 pm »

Quote from: jpmeyer
Honestly, I think that resource management is the most difficult skill because a lot of it is very subtle and easy to miss.


Reminds me a bit of high level Starcraft players: every unit counts they fight down to the last mineral. That's how masters of the game win...

*random insert*

Regarding the article, if I read it correctly, he may have a point. How does mulling into shop->sphere = skill? I guess the skill becomes a factor when playing the mirror then.

Type 2 is more forgiving I guess. I don't know anymore.

They need to bring dice rolls into magic.
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2004, 01:55:17 pm »

Quote from: Magi
Quote from: jpmeyer
Honestly, I think that resource management is the most difficult skill because a lot of it is very subtle and easy to miss.


Reminds me a bit of high level Starcraft players: every unit counts they fight down to the last mineral. That's how masters of the game win...


To clarify this even more, in Type 1 you usually draw more cards, do more damage, and generate more mana than you need in each game.  You tapped the wrong Mox to cast Thirst for Knowledge?  Whatever.  You still have two other ones untapped, and you still have 8 cards in hand.

You sacrificed one permanent too few to Ravager?  You might've given your opponent two more turns to pull out.

But then again, you don't also have Balance/Doomsday in your Ravager deck.
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2004, 02:32:29 pm »

Quote from: Seifyk

Isn't making decisions on imperfect information considered to be guessing?  


Well that depends on your definition...how about playing the probabilities at least. If you think you can read tells then you have more information than the board or mathematics allows you.  

For some people it is just guess I suppose.
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